Bay Area folks . . . anyone know him?

Terror Tunes
A California composer promotes a Paraguayan 'Aryan' colony
BY T.K. Kim

They wanted their very own settlement � a place where they could create a
kind of miniature Aryan utopia, raising their children in a Jew-free
society and ensuring for all time the racial purity of their descendants.

Inspired by an anti-Semitic essay by Bavarian composer Richard Wagner,
this group of German families in 1886 joined Elisabeth Nietzche-F�rster,
sister of the famous philosopher Friedrich Nietzche, in inaugurating an
all-white society as part of their quest for "purification and rebirth of
the human race." And where did they plant the seeds of their brave new
world? The malarial jungles of Paraguay. They called their "promised
land" Nueva Germania.
Fast forward some 120 years, and the promised land isn't much. Illness,
snake bites, the oppressive heat and monsoon-like rains drove many of the
original settlers scurrying back to Germany. Neitzche-Forster returned
home, too, after her husband committed suicide. Today, the descendants of
Nueva Germania residents who stayed live in squalor, many of them
dark-skinned as a result of intermarriage.
But that hasn't turned off David Woodard.
A composer from San Francisco � and the music director of the Los Angeles
Chamber Group, which specializes in memorial services � Woodard wrote and
conducted a paean to Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, who, he told a
reporter in 2001, "deserves some kind of tribute." The next year, Woodard
wrote an "original memorial suite" to honor William Pierce, leader of the
neo-Nazi National Alliance, after Pierce died unexpectedly that summer.
Now, Woodard is into Neuva Germania.
Upon arriving in the settlement for a visit last year, Woodard reportedly
found most of the colony's 100 or so German-speaking descendants living
in homes with no indoor plumbing or electricity. He wants to see the
Aryan dream rebuilt.
"As an artist who is fed up with much of the pretentious nonsense that
has come to define Western culture," he told the San Francisco Chronicle,
"I am drawn to the idea of an Aryan vacuum in the middle of the jungle."
To fulfill his quest, Nueva Germania's would-be Messiah is seeking help
from philanthropic groups and at least one high-ranking politician � Vice
President Dick Cheney. He got one humanitarian group to donate $12,500 in
medicines, the Chronicle reported. One of his Web sites, which opens to
music by Wagner, offers Woodard-guided tours of "the forgotten
fatherland." And Woodard already has written a musical tribute to Neuva
Germania, "Our Jungle Holy Land."
Woodard has told reporters that he's no white supremacist and that
McVeigh's murder of 168 people was a "horrible crime." But the name of
his tribute, a part of which was performed as a "prequiem" shortly before
McVeigh was executed, is "Ave Atque Vale" � translated literally, "Hail
and Farewell," but named by Woodard in English as "Onward, Valiant
Soldier." McVeigh wrote Woodard shortly before his execution to say the
composer was the only person he knew of who understood McVeigh's attitude
toward those he murdered. "Maybe," McVeigh wrote in response to a Woodard
letter, "there is hope yet for this species!"
Woodard did not respond to requests for comment.
Woodard has toyed with unconventional ideas for years, and he was
friendly with Beat Generation writer William Burroughs before his 1997
death. Woodard has promoted Burroughs' "Dreamachines" and similar
imagination-boosting gadgets like so-called "Wishing Machines" and
"Feraliminal Lycanthopizers," and he says he is interested in
immortality, divination and teleportation. At least one critic has
suggested that his performances seem to be "elaborate pranks."
Is Woodard serious about the Aryans? In a July 31, 2002, e-mail to
National Alliance leaders, he certainly seemed to be. It was "with the
most profound regret," he wrote in the communication, that he had learned
of the passing of Pierce, a man who has called for locking Jews into
railroad cattle cars and sending them to the bottoms of abandoned coal
mines. Pierce's death, Woodard said, was a "tragedy."

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=554

Woodard certainly sounds like an asshole (not to put too fine a point on it). Whether he is motivated by politics or the pursuit of notoriety, makes no difference to me.

- Dave

Christopher Bailey wrote:
> > Terror Tunes
> A California composer promotes a Paraguayan 'Aryan' colony
> BY T.K. Kim
> > They wanted their very own settlement � a place where they could create a
> kind of miniature Aryan utopia, raising their children in a Jew-free
> society and ensuring for all time the racial purity of their descendants.
> > Inspired by an anti-Semitic essay by Bavarian composer Richard Wagner,
> this group of German families in 1886 joined Elisabeth Nietzche-F�rster,
> sister of the famous philosopher Friedrich Nietzche, in inaugurating an
> all-white society as part of their quest for "purification and rebirth of
> the human race." And where did they plant the seeds of their brave new
> world? The malarial jungles of Paraguay. They called their "promised
> land" Nueva Germania. > Fast forward some 120 years, and the promised land isn't much. Illness,
> snake bites, the oppressive heat and monsoon-like rains drove many of the
> original settlers scurrying back to Germany. Neitzche-Forster returned
> home, too, after her husband committed suicide. Today, the descendants of
> Nueva Germania residents who stayed live in squalor, many of them
> dark-skinned as a result of intermarriage. > But that hasn't turned off David Woodard. > A composer from San Francisco � and the music director of the Los Angeles
> Chamber Group, which specializes in memorial services � Woodard wrote and
> conducted a paean to Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, who, he told a
> reporter in 2001, "deserves some kind of tribute." The next year, Woodard
> wrote an "original memorial suite" to honor William Pierce, leader of the
> neo-Nazi National Alliance, after Pierce died unexpectedly that summer. > Now, Woodard is into Neuva Germania. > Upon arriving in the settlement for a visit last year, Woodard reportedly
> found most of the colony's 100 or so German-speaking descendants living
> in homes with no indoor plumbing or electricity. He wants to see the
> Aryan dream rebuilt. > "As an artist who is fed up with much of the pretentious nonsense that
> has come to define Western culture," he told the San Francisco Chronicle,
> "I am drawn to the idea of an Aryan vacuum in the middle of the jungle." > To fulfill his quest, Nueva Germania's would-be Messiah is seeking help
> from philanthropic groups and at least one high-ranking politician � Vice
> President Dick Cheney. He got one humanitarian group to donate $12,500 in
> medicines, the Chronicle reported. One of his Web sites, which opens to
> music by Wagner, offers Woodard-guided tours of "the forgotten
> fatherland." And Woodard already has written a musical tribute to Neuva
> Germania, "Our Jungle Holy Land." > Woodard has told reporters that he's no white supremacist and that
> McVeigh's murder of 168 people was a "horrible crime." But the name of
> his tribute, a part of which was performed as a "prequiem" shortly before
> McVeigh was executed, is "Ave Atque Vale" � translated literally, "Hail
> and Farewell," but named by Woodard in English as "Onward, Valiant
> Soldier." McVeigh wrote Woodard shortly before his execution to say the
> composer was the only person he knew of who understood McVeigh's attitude
> toward those he murdered. "Maybe," McVeigh wrote in response to a Woodard
> letter, "there is hope yet for this species!" > Woodard did not respond to requests for comment. > Woodard has toyed with unconventional ideas for years, and he was
> friendly with Beat Generation writer William Burroughs before his 1997
> death. Woodard has promoted Burroughs' "Dreamachines" and similar
> imagination-boosting gadgets like so-called "Wishing Machines" and
> "Feraliminal Lycanthopizers," and he says he is interested in
> immortality, divination and teleportation. At least one critic has
> suggested that his performances seem to be "elaborate pranks." > Is Woodard serious about the Aryans? In a July 31, 2002, e-mail to
> National Alliance leaders, he certainly seemed to be. It was "with the
> most profound regret," he wrote in the communication, that he had learned
> of the passing of Pierce, a man who has called for locking Jews into
> railroad cattle cars and sending them to the bottoms of abandoned coal
> mines. Pierce's death, Woodard said, was a "tragedy." > > > http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=554

I know David!
He tried to write a piece for one of the ground zero memorials
but the powers that be pulled out at the last moment.
Possibly because of his Mcveigh 'connections.'
He perforrmed a requiems for a bunch of seals that washed up on the beach one time
he told me one of his goals was to write for the air force band
Christopher Bailey wrote:

>Terror Tunes
>A California composer promotes a Paraguayan 'Aryan' colony
>BY T.K. Kim
>
>They wanted their very own settlement � a place where they could create a
>kind of miniature Aryan utopia, raising their children in a Jew-free
>society and ensuring for all time the racial purity of their descendants.
>
>Inspired by an anti-Semitic essay by Bavarian composer Richard Wagner,
>this group of German families in 1886 joined Elisabeth Nietzche-F�rster,
>sister of the famous philosopher Friedrich Nietzche, in inaugurating an
>all-white society as part of their quest for "purification and rebirth of
>the human race." And where did they plant the seeds of their brave new
>world? The malarial jungles of Paraguay. They called their "promised
>land" Nueva Germania. >Fast forward some 120 years, and the promised land isn't much. Illness,
>snake bites, the oppressive heat and monsoon-like rains drove many of the
>original settlers scurrying back to Germany. Neitzche-Forster returned
>home, too, after her husband committed suicide. Today, the descendants of
>Nueva Germania residents who stayed live in squalor, many of them
>dark-skinned as a result of intermarriage. >But that hasn't turned off David Woodard. >A composer from San Francisco � and the music director of the Los Angeles
>Chamber Group, which specializes in memorial services � Woodard wrote and
>conducted a paean to Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, who, he told a
>reporter in 2001, "deserves some kind of tribute." The next year, Woodard
>wrote an "original memorial suite" to honor William Pierce, leader of the
>neo-Nazi National Alliance, after Pierce died unexpectedly that summer. >Now, Woodard is into Neuva Germania. >Upon arriving in the settlement for a visit last year, Woodard reportedly
>found most of the colony's 100 or so German-speaking descendants living
>in homes with no indoor plumbing or electricity. He wants to see the
>Aryan dream rebuilt. >"As an artist who is fed up with much of the pretentious nonsense that
>has come to define Western culture," he told the San Francisco Chronicle,
>"I am drawn to the idea of an Aryan vacuum in the middle of the jungle." >To fulfill his quest, Nueva Germania's would-be Messiah is seeking help
>from philanthropic groups and at least one high-ranking politician � Vice
>President Dick Cheney. He got one humanitarian group to donate $12,500 in
>medicines, the Chronicle reported. One of his Web sites, which opens to
>music by Wagner, offers Woodard-guided tours of "the forgotten
>fatherland." And Woodard already has written a musical tribute to Neuva
>Germania, "Our Jungle Holy Land." >Woodard has told reporters that he's no white supremacist and that
>McVeigh's murder of 168 people was a "horrible crime." But the name of
>his tribute, a part of which was performed as a "prequiem" shortly before
>McVeigh was executed, is "Ave Atque Vale" � translated literally, "Hail
>and Farewell," but named by Woodard in English as "Onward, Valiant
>Soldier." McVeigh wrote Woodard shortly before his execution to say the
>composer was the only person he knew of who understood McVeigh's attitude
>toward those he murdered. "Maybe," McVeigh wrote in response to a Woodard
>letter, "there is hope yet for this species!" >Woodard did not respond to requests for comment. >Woodard has toyed with unconventional ideas for years, and he was
>friendly with Beat Generation writer William Burroughs before his 1997
>death. Woodard has promoted Burroughs' "Dreamachines" and similar
>imagination-boosting gadgets like so-called "Wishing Machines" and
>"Feraliminal Lycanthopizers," and he says he is interested in
>immortality, divination and teleportation. At least one critic has
>suggested that his performances seem to be "elaborate pranks." >Is Woodard serious about the Aryans? In a July 31, 2002, e-mail to
>National Alliance leaders, he certainly seemed to be. It was "with the
>most profound regret," he wrote in the communication, that he had learned
>of the passing of Pierce, a man who has called for locking Jews into
>railroad cattle cars and sending them to the bottoms of abandoned coal
>mines. Pierce's death, Woodard said, was a "tragedy." >
>
>http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=554
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

the hopi s have certain katchinas which are like evil clowns. they will walk around hitting people quite hard with sticks.
At the back of many of man of their rituals are the mud face people. while the religious ceremony is going on, the mud face people stand in the back and yell the most obscenities they can muster up.
Paul Radin has a book called the trickster, that all those beat people stole from , especially the idea of the talking anus which comes from this book. (notice DW his connection with burroughs)
I think this is the missing link to DW connection with what you describe him as.

Dave Seidel wrote:

>Woodard certainly sounds like an asshole (not to put too fine a point on >it). Whether he is motivated by politics or the pursuit of notoriety, >makes no difference to me.
>
>- Dave
>
> >
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

That's hilarious. A talking, composing anus. With all his concern for
Aryan purity, I wonder if he's considered this treatment for himself:

http://tinyurl.com/8xx4m

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
> the hopi s have certain katchinas which are like evil clowns. they
will
> walk around hitting people quite hard with sticks.
> At the back of many of man of their rituals are the mud face
people.
> while the religious ceremony is going on, the mud face people stand
in
> the back and yell the most obscenities they can muster up.
> Paul Radin has a book called the trickster, that all those beat
people
> stole from , especially the idea of the talking anus which comes
from
> this book. (notice DW his connection with burroughs)
> I think this is the missing link to DW connection with what you
describe
> him as.
>
>
>
>
>
> Dave Seidel wrote:
>
> >Woodard certainly sounds like an asshole (not to put too fine a
point on
> >it). Whether he is motivated by politics or the pursuit of
notoriety,
> >makes no difference to me.
> >
> >- Dave
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

i should qualify that i know david and have talked to him on a couple of occasions, i can't say he is a friend outside of being someone who does music, sometimes in the same place as myself.

I do think that if you can get all the neo nazi in a remote deserted region in the jungle, we can see how well the "purity" and superiority of their genes will withstand their environment
and would save the mossad allot of money and time monitoring their activiy.
Maybe a few of our former travels on these list from australia might like it there too. as well as the treatment you describe below
Paul Erlich wrote:

>That's hilarious. A talking, composing anus. With all his concern for >Aryan purity, I wonder if he's considered this treatment for himself:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/8xx4m
>
>
>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> >wrote:
> >
>>the hopi s have certain katchinas which are like evil clowns. they >> >>
>will > >
>>walk around hitting people quite hard with sticks.
>> At the back of many of man of their rituals are the mud face >> >>
>people. > >
>>while the religious ceremony is going on, the mud face people stand >> >>
>in > >
>>the back and yell the most obscenities they can muster up.
>> Paul Radin has a book called the trickster, that all those beat >> >>
>people > >
>>stole from , especially the idea of the talking anus which comes >> >>
>from > >
>>this book. (notice DW his connection with burroughs)
>>I think this is the missing link to DW connection with what you >> >>
>describe > >
>>him as.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Dave Seidel wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>>Woodard certainly sounds like an asshole (not to put too fine a >>> >>>
>point on > >
>>>it). Whether he is motivated by politics or the pursuit of >>> >>>
>notoriety, > >
>>>makes no difference to me.
>>>
>>>- Dave
>>>
>>> >>>
>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>-- >>Kraig Grady
>>North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>>The Wandering Medicine Show
>>KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
> i should qualify that i know david and have talked to him on a
couple of
> occasions, i can't say he is a friend outside of being someone who
does
> music, sometimes in the same place as myself.
>
> I do think that if you can get all the neo nazi in a remote
deserted
> region in the jungle, we can see how well the "purity" and
superiority
> of their genes will withstand their environment
> and would save the mossad allot of money and time monitoring their
activiy.
> Maybe a few of our former travels on these list from australia
might
> like it there too. as well as the treatment you describe below

He he. But Sault was British, not Australian, so I don't know who you
mean.

>
>
> Paul Erlich wrote:
>
> >That's hilarious. A talking, composing anus. With all his concern
for
> >Aryan purity, I wonder if he's considered this treatment for
himself:
> >
> >http://tinyurl.com/8xx4m
> >
> >
> >--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >>the hopi s have certain katchinas which are like evil clowns.
they
> >>
> >>
> >will
> >
> >
> >>walk around hitting people quite hard with sticks.
> >> At the back of many of man of their rituals are the mud face
> >>
> >>
> >people.
> >
> >
> >>while the religious ceremony is going on, the mud face people
stand
> >>
> >>
> >in
> >
> >
> >>the back and yell the most obscenities they can muster up.
> >> Paul Radin has a book called the trickster, that all those beat
> >>
> >>
> >people
> >
> >
> >>stole from , especially the idea of the talking anus which comes
> >>
> >>
> >from
> >
> >
> >>this book. (notice DW his connection with burroughs)
> >>I think this is the missing link to DW connection with what you
> >>
> >>
> >describe
> >
> >
> >>him as.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Dave Seidel wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Woodard certainly sounds like an asshole (not to put too fine a
> >>>
> >>>
> >point on
> >
> >
> >>>it). Whether he is motivated by politics or the pursuit of
> >>>
> >>>
> >notoriety,
> >
> >
> >>>makes no difference to me.
> >>>
> >>>- Dave
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>--
> >>Kraig Grady
> >>North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> >>The Wandering Medicine Show
> >>KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los
Angeles
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Meta Tuning meta-info:
> >
> >To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> >metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> >
> >To post to the list, send to
> >metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >You don't have to be a member to post.
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

sault, yes

Paul Erlich wrote:

>
>
>He he. But Sault was British, not Australian, so I don't know who you >mean.
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Timothy McVeigh wasn't behind the bombing. I wouldn't take an article
seriously from anyone that slanders Wagner anyway... /Ö

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Mats Öljare <oljare@h...> wrote:
>
> Timothy McVeigh wasn't behind the bombing. I wouldn't take an article
> seriously from anyone that slanders Wagner anyway... /Ö

You and your white supremacist heroes can rejoice -- I'm out of here.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Mats Öljare <oljare@h...> wrote:
> Timothy McVeigh wasn't behind the bombing.

Yeah, and Pol Pot was involved in some tomato fields, not killing
fields, right? Brainless.

> I wouldn't take an article seriously from anyone that slanders
> Wagner anyway...

Wagner was a disgusting egomaniac whose music was used to vile ends. I
separate the music from the man, when I need to, but I'd be happy to
slander the creep. And if that is your way of viewing the veracity of
an author, so be it. We've all got to establish our own personal
credibility, and your above statements are enlightening.

I also don't feel a need to engage in this any further.

Jon

I honestly can't believe what i'm reading here. I can only stand open
mouthed at the small-minded polemic and childishness that often
appears in this community.

Seriously i have not seen anything like it, in any of the many and
diverse forums i visit and take part in online. Even among MUSICIAN
forums, infamous for their sworn "enemies" and "fighting camps" being
created and dividing the public for no real reasons, the Tuning list
has to stand out among the lowest of the low.

To be honest, i'm aware that many views i hold are percieved as
controversial even by the most "outside" people, but i do try, more
than many others here, not to reference my views on anything else than
what i am actually discussing.

The post that i just made was completely on topic, and to the
uninvolved it might be far too brief, but it's quite true about what a
fair amount of people actually believe. And there's absolutely no
reason that this belief should be offensive to anybody, unless you are
personally dependant upon witholding the notions of "terrorist
threat", and the US law enforcement never falsely sentencing anybody.

Or are you perhaps part of a religion that believes that the acts
attributed to Timothy McVeigh was his "divine sacrifice" and disbelief
in how it occured is simply heretical, that it would be an insult to
his great work to claim that it was not his? If not, then i don't see
how such a claim could be so offensive in itself.

A fair amount of people of all political inclinations believe the
Oklahoma bombing was setup by the government, CIA or another domestic
authority. If you can not stand seeing people showing the slightest
disbelief in any of the news stories that corporate news agencies
provide, then don't post about them in the first place. The point of
having a list like this is to allow discussion. With no critique or
counter-arguments allowed, it's no longer dicussion.

"I hope you'll say you're sorry real soon!!"

/Ö

Mats,

I was replying only to the two sentences in your post. I happen to
think that any of the alternatives to T. McV. actually being involved
in the bombing are either weak or fictions. You are welcome to your
beliefs, as am I. I cast a very cautious glare at *all* police-like
actions, the FBI, CIA, and groups outside of the US as well. I also
try to keep an open mind when the facts present themselves.

If my Pol Pot remark offended you, I am sorry, and probably should
have just said something like "I think that is nonsense". But I find
both statements equally, well, nuts.

As to Wagner, I stand by my remark: I find him repugnant as a person;
while it may be unfortunate that his music found such evil supporters,
it isn't a surprise. Politics and personal conduct aside, I have
always found the music (and music-dramas) bloated, histrionic, and of
a length that is surely suited to his ego. All of the music
subjectivism, naturally, is just that - subjective. And, as obviously,
my subjective viewpoint. However, if you knew that, would you then
completly write off any of my other, non-Wagnerian viewpoints?

I'm not "real sorry", but I hope this makes clear my very curt reply
of earlier.

Jon

I remember all the early reports form the local news in oklahoma city sighted that the police were in the process of disarming another bomb which had be found inside.
There is also the ties with all the others reported to loading up the truck with over a dozen people.
But i have never heard that McVeigh had absolutely no ties with the bombing

Mats �ljare wrote:

>I honestly can't believe what i'm reading here. I can only stand open
>mouthed at the small-minded polemic and childishness that often
>appears in this community.
>
>Seriously i have not seen anything like it, in any of the many and
>diverse forums i visit and take part in online. Even among MUSICIAN
>forums, infamous for their sworn "enemies" and "fighting camps" being
>created and dividing the public for no real reasons, the Tuning list
>has to stand out among the lowest of the low.
>
>To be honest, i'm aware that many views i hold are percieved as
>controversial even by the most "outside" people, but i do try, more
>than many others here, not to reference my views on anything else than
>what i am actually discussing.
>
>The post that i just made was completely on topic, and to the
>uninvolved it might be far too brief, but it's quite true about what a
>fair amount of people actually believe. And there's absolutely no
>reason that this belief should be offensive to anybody, unless you are
>personally dependant upon witholding the notions of "terrorist
>threat", and the US law enforcement never falsely sentencing anybody.
>
>Or are you perhaps part of a religion that believes that the acts
>attributed to Timothy McVeigh was his "divine sacrifice" and disbelief
>in how it occured is simply heretical, that it would be an insult to
>his great work to claim that it was not his? If not, then i don't see
>how such a claim could be so offensive in itself.
>
>A fair amount of people of all political inclinations believe the
>Oklahoma bombing was setup by the government, CIA or another domestic
>authority. If you can not stand seeing people showing the slightest
>disbelief in any of the news stories that corporate news agencies
>provide, then don't post about them in the first place. The point of
>having a list like this is to allow discussion. With no critique or
>counter-arguments allowed, it's no longer dicussion.
>
>"I hope you'll say you're sorry real soon!!"
>
>/�
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

interestingly i have seen so many pictures of Degas in the house of jews, to the point of them being a 'staple'and even though they are quite aware that he was an anti-semite, many have pointed out , that this was at a time when every one else was too.
I haven't really kept up on Wagner, but wouldn't the case apply to him also, with his wife being the worse of the lot.
I just don't have all the pieces, if someone can fill them in.
Jon Szanto wrote:

>Mats,
>
>I was replying only to the two sentences in your post. I happen to
>think that any of the alternatives to T. McV. actually being involved
>in the bombing are either weak or fictions. You are welcome to your
>beliefs, as am I. I cast a very cautious glare at *all* police-like
>actions, the FBI, CIA, and groups outside of the US as well. I also
>try to keep an open mind when the facts present themselves.
>
>If my Pol Pot remark offended you, I am sorry, and probably should
>have just said something like "I think that is nonsense". But I find
>both statements equally, well, nuts.
>
>As to Wagner, I stand by my remark: I find him repugnant as a person;
>while it may be unfortunate that his music found such evil supporters,
>it isn't a surprise. Politics and personal conduct aside, I have
>always found the music (and music-dramas) bloated, histrionic, and of
>a length that is surely suited to his ego. All of the music
>subjectivism, naturally, is just that - subjective. And, as obviously,
>my subjective viewpoint. However, if you knew that, would you then
>completly write off any of my other, non-Wagnerian viewpoints?
>
>I'm not "real sorry", but I hope this makes clear my very curt reply
>of earlier.
>
>Jon
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
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Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

In a message dated 8/3/2005 1:11:57 AM Eastern Standard Time,
kraiggrady@... writes:
interestingly i have seen so many pictures of Degas in the house of
jews, to the point of them being a 'staple'and even though they are
quite aware that he was an anti-semite,

I never heard that Degas was an anti-semite. I only knew he liked ballet
and had a friend he liked to paint who was a bassoonist.

many have pointed out , that
this was at a time when every one else was too.

No, it was never okay to hate. This was also the time when Jews had their
greatest successes in Europe.

I haven't really kept up on Wagner, but wouldn't the case apply to him
also, with his wife being the worse of the lot.
I just don't have all the pieces, if someone can fill them in.
Wagner was much worse in that he wrote polemics against Jews and had them
published. Not many had that much audacity.

best, Johnny Reinhard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I understand he was quite an anti semite. It seems strange to me that i would see them is so many jewish homes here

Afmmjr@... wrote:

>In a message dated 8/3/2005 1:11:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, >kraiggrady@... writes:
>interestingly i have seen so many pictures of Degas in the house of >jews, to the point of them being a 'staple'and even though they are >quite aware that he was an anti-semite, >
>I never heard that Degas was an anti-semite. I only knew he liked ballet >and had a friend he liked to paint who was a bassoonist.
>
>many have pointed out , that >this was at a time when every one else was too.
>
>No, it was never okay to hate. This was also the time when Jews had their >greatest successes in Europe.
>
>
>I haven't really kept up on Wagner, but wouldn't the case apply to him >also, with his wife being the worse of the lot.
>I just don't have all the pieces, if someone can fill them in.
>Wagner was much worse in that he wrote polemics against Jews and had them >published. Not many had that much audacity.
>
>best, Johnny Reinhard
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
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--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

On Tuesday 02 August 2005 5:43 pm, Mats Öljare wrote:
> I honestly can't believe what i'm reading here. I can only stand open
> mouthed at the small-minded polemic and childishness that often
> appears in this community.

All due respect, it's pretty small-minded and childish to make such ridiculous
statements and expect to be taken seriously.

> To be honest, i'm aware that many views i hold are percieved as
> controversial even by the most "outside" people, but i do try, more
> than many others here, not to reference my views on anything else than
> what i am actually discussing.

Nonetheless, you might examine whether or not you are being controversial for
the sake of it, then.

> The post that i just made was completely on topic, and to the
> uninvolved it might be far too brief, but it's quite true about what a
> fair amount of people actually believe. And there's absolutely no
> reason that this belief should be offensive to anybody, unless you are
> personally dependant upon witholding the notions of "terrorist
> threat", and the US law enforcement never falsely sentencing anybody.

Ok, we get it, you think McVeigh was faultily sentenced. We also understand by
now that you are a rampant conspiracy theorist. You have to understand that
you lose credibility with a stance like that. It starts to sound pretty
'flat-earther' after a while.

The way you put it makes it hard for anyone to want to argue with you, because
its evident you don't count any evidence that would counter your belief in a
dark undersociety controlling everything, yada yada yada. In short, your
conspiracy remains completely emotionally based and unscientific.

> Or are you perhaps part of a religion that believes that the acts
> attributed to Timothy McVeigh was his "divine sacrifice" and disbelief
> in how it occured is simply heretical, that it would be an insult to
> his great work to claim that it was not his? If not, then i don't see
> how such a claim could be so offensive in itself.

I'm not clear whether or not you think McVeigh committed a "great work" by
your tone here, a fact that creeps me out to no end. Or, that you think any
of us are such wackos that would believe thus. Either way, pretty disturbing.

> A fair amount of people of all political inclinations believe the
> Oklahoma bombing was setup by the government, CIA or another domestic
> authority. If you can not stand seeing people showing the slightest
> disbelief in any of the news stories that corporate news agencies
> provide, then don't post about them in the first place. The point of
> having a list like this is to allow discussion. With no critique or
> counter-arguments allowed, it's no longer dicussion.

You are not interested in argument about this. You simply stated two
unqualified opinions you knew would wrangle or offend. If you didn't know
they would offend anyone, you are foolish. If you did, you are just being a
jerk. This is how you debate?

How about, instead of replacing one absolute with another, asking: what makes
you so sure McVeigh did it?

BTW, where is your sense of disgust at *whoever* committed the atrocities at
Oklahoma? What is the value of human life to you?

As for Wagner, he's earned his pig reputation fairly. He's music is incredibly
skillfully composed, incredibly audacious, olympic in length, the height of
romantic decadence, and pretty hard to listen to for many people for more
than a few minutes. He was a genius, but an asshole, and there's no rule
stating that a genius can't be an asshole. People slam his personhood and his
aesthetics, and I think fairly so. Of course, for the white supremacist,
neo-Nazi sympathizers, he represents a zenith of pure human will. Ugly stuff.

He was long dead by the time of the nazi's and i can't remember him writing any books like ford.
richard Strauss actually became a nazi but somehow now one seems to be in up in arms over him, at least not as much.
and cosima i imagine got her attitude toward these fine people from her father, liszt, one would seem!?
Considering Richard had over 30 illegitimate children, makes me think he must have had some likable qualities.
I just want something specific ( i know johnny is always good and up to date on such things)

I still prefer him to bruckner who is on the bottom of my list .

While i can't imagine McVeigh not being involved, i missed any anti jewish statements by him and surely , they did not pick a 'jewish' target.
His connection through weapon of a few milita people including some in the can fror bank robbery, i can't find the article.
It seems almost impossible for just tim amd terry to load up this truck by themselves.
That they did not execute the later is interesting, but a good move aswe need to know who exactly helped.
probably the same folks that brought you the anthax letters. which points to people 'inside the government" but not necessarily representing such.

While conspiracy theories you can dismiss as such. one would be even more naieve to think that everything is done out in the open.
All those think tanks in washington are by their very natures 'conspiracies' to promote and institute long range plans for specific agendas.
I see absolutely no ethical restraint openly , why would you expect it behind closed doors.
Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:

> As for Wagner, he's earned his pig reputation fairly. He's music is > incredibly
>
>skillfully composed, incredibly audacious, olympic in length, the height of >romantic decadence, and pretty hard to listen to for many people for more >than a few minutes. He was a genius, but an asshole, and there's no rule >stating that a genius can't be an asshole. People slam his personhood and his >aesthetics, and I think fairly so. Of course, for the white supremacist, >neo-Nazi sympathizers, he represents a zenith of pure human will. Ugly stuff.
>
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

In a message dated 8/3/2005 5:27:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kraiggrady@... writes:
He was long dead by the time of the nazi's and i can't remember him
writing any books like ford.
Kraig, if you are indeed talking about Wagner, in effect he did write a book.
So did Liszt (Of Gypsies and Jews).

Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I just wanted to know.too bad
i guess the revenge is that Mahler was the best conductor of his music and even though they made him convert, i am sure somehow it must of really gotten their goat ( pardon the pun)
Gustav i think had more on the ball as a composer.
But i have never really gotten into.

But it points out the seeds of nazism in austria quite a period of time before they came to power.
Out side of the inquistition , i know little of the percecution in Europe historically. When the church(es) had a strong control over the government, it is easier to see, but once you have the 18th century, it becomes impossible to understand. unless it just exist along tribal boundaries, or a residue of religous politics.

Afmmjr@... wrote:

>In a message dated 8/3/2005 5:27:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, >kraiggrady@... writes:
>He was long dead by the time of the nazi's and i can't remember him >writing any books like ford.
>Kraig, if you are indeed talking about Wagner, in effect he did write a book. > So did Liszt (Of Gypsies and Jews).
>
>Johnny
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

In a message dated 8/3/2005 6:19:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kraiggrady@... writes:
But it points out the seeds of nazism in austria quite a period of time
before they came to power.
Out side of the inquistition , i know little of the percecution in
Europe historically. When the church(es) had a strong control over the
government, it is easier to see, but once you have the 18th century, it
becomes impossible to understand. unless it just exist along tribal
boundaries, or a residue of religous politics.

There were depopulations of Jews in German cities for over a thousand years
before Hitler. Horrid, massive destruction and killing. It's hard to say
there is a pre-Nazi era. At the time of Degas and Mendelssohn, Jews were doing
the best they had in European society. It is due to their successes that
jealousy and anti-semitism became virulent.

Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Afmmjr@... wrote:

>
>There were depopulations of Jews in German cities for over a thousand years >before Hitler. >
I guess this is what theyt did before they broke apart and went catholic/prosant on each other, not to mentioned the other excuses of war throughout this area, basically tribal.

>Horrid, massive destruction and killing. It's hard to say >there is a pre-Nazi era. At the time of Degas and Mendelssohn, Jews were doing >the best they had in European society. >
Degas was in a different era than Mendelsohn.
More turn of the 20th century
glad to hear that the latter had a chance to allow is musdic to florish in a good environment. he added quite a bit.

> It is due to their successes that >jealousy and anti-semitism became virulent.
>
>Johnny
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles