Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup metatuning Re: A mostly temperament list?

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "ideaofgod" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> Carl's point was that if you want to make a positive contribution, you
> can.

Hey, I've gotten enough mail lately mentioning positive things I've
done to keep me warm through a cold winter. That I am one of the few
people to stand up to you in public makes me appear quite negative.
Not fun, but also not for long. *This*, too, shall pass.

> Suggesting that quantity does not equate with quality is more of
> your negativity.

Well, what Gene? Best composer on the lists is the one who can pump
out the most tunes?

Damn, you missed the point. I was trying to say to Carl that by simply
making a lot of music, one is not necessarily a musician. That one
absolutely drop-dead, end-of-the-world piece could trump multitudes of
opus numbers. And I candidly and openly talk about my complete lack of
both acumen and intuition in mathematical realms. Call me an algebra
Cro-Magnon, it won't hurt me, because it is probably true.

Somehow, *music* is in the ephemeral category of _taste_. I can hear
it now: if it isn't Jon Szanto's definition of good music, then it
must not be good. But that isn't the case at all, since many of the
merits and demerits of your compositions (and other peoples as well)
have been discussed in places like MMM. And you have been offered
constructive commentary on how your pieces could maybe, just maybe, be
improved. But it is pretty much like shouting into the wind.

Maybe that is what it feels like to you when you talk to me. I don't
know. There just seems to be a pretty large conception gap, and I am
*not* the only one who experiences it.

> It is both unkind and highly unconstructive, since if
> you, as you claim, want people to compose more microtonal music
> attacking them for doing so makes no sense.

I Did Not attack anyone. I wish you would read carefully what I wrote.
I do happen to see a difference between people who have dedicated
their entire lives to performing and composing music, and those who
dabble in it, no matter how serious the intent. That is not
perjorative, but simple acknowlegement of skill and intuition based on
long-honed work. Just, in fact, as it must be for your life in math.
And, to be sure, there are the weekend warriors that could not only
hold their own but be beacons of creativity, just as there are
multiple ranks of 'established composers' whose dreck should be
consigned to a quiet room in an archive somewhere.

But the fact that I - before anything else - am a musician means
absolutely nothing. Not around here. PhD in math or related studies?
Excellent. People like me? Zero respect, from people like you, at least.

Or is the phrase "less than zero" still in use?

Jon

🔗ideaofgod <gwsmith@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> > It is both unkind and highly unconstructive, since if
> > you, as you claim, want people to compose more microtonal music
> > attacking them for doing so makes no sense.
>
> I Did Not attack anyone. I wish you would read carefully what I wrote.

What point then were you making by hinting that in my case, quantity
did not seem to involve quality, by saying that I am not a musician,
and by telling the world that no one who was actually interested in
music would ask the kind of questions and raise the kinds of issues
which I raised on the tuning list? Rather than making a reasoned
reply, you simply attacked me personally. If you understood my point,
you should have been able to reply to it, and if you did not, you
should not have attacked me for making it.

> But the fact that I - before anything else - am a musician means
> absolutely nothing. Not around here.

Jon, if you want to compose, then compose. If you don't, that's fine
also, but then why get on the case of those who do? If you would
support those who do compose, however imperfectly, you could claim to
be supportive, but of late you seem to be morphing into the next Brian
McLaren, and that simply does not help anyone. Playing the triangle in
San Diego will not automatically help me compose music in San Jose, so
simply saying you are a musician and I should therefore defer to your
opinions on matters musicial is not helpful. This is especially true
if what you say is both vague and negative, such as your remarks about
composing in the now. You need to say something both concrete and
helpful if you intend to be concretely helpful, and only you can
decided if you want to be. Brian decided he did not want to be, and I
rather doubt you want to follow his lead. Please don't.

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "ideaofgod" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> > I Did Not attack anyone. I wish you would read carefully what I wrote.

[Gene]
> What point then were you making by hinting that in my case, quantity
> did not seem to involve quality, by saying that I am not a musician,
> and by telling the world that no one who was actually interested in
> music would ask the kind of questions and raise the kinds of issues
> which I raised on the tuning list?

Carl pointed out you had posted a lot of music lately; I indicated
that did not automatically morph you into a musician, with the
intention of music first, other issues later. Was my implication that
No One Single Musician might question that? Well, I didn't think I was
in court, and had to hone every arguement to cover every universally
possible percentage. What I was saying is that the difference betweem
musicians that I work with, perform with, rehearse with, and musicians
that I read about, etc, etc. are not going to sit there and debate
whether a tuning they just heard, if someone wrote a piece in JI,
actully ended up in JI, or if this note was a cent off, or whatever.
These are the kind of issues that people on tuning lists are involved
with (not everyone on the list, but I've never met this type of person
anywhere else) - they listen to tunings before they listen to music.

I can't be more clear than that. It is something that has struck me
for years, but if it doesn't seem that way to you, and I imagine it
won't, I am not going to pursue it. In fact, as a previous post
indicated, I won't pursue *any* of this.

> Rather than making a reasoned
> reply, you simply attacked me personally.

I did not "attack". Why you want to play the victim, I don't know.

> Jon, if you want to compose, then compose. If you don't, that's fine
> also, but then why get on the case of those who do?

I didn't.

> If you would
> support those who do compose, however imperfectly, you could claim to
> be supportive

This is absolutely true, Gene. I have failed to be able to do that, on
a completely neutral level. I haven't been able to ignore everything
else and simply support microtonal composers, and I feel badly about
it. But I realize that I cannot be completely objective about it, and
it is one of the reasons for my leaving. _You_ are a case in point
where a number of people tried to be constructive in their comments
about a piece or two, and pretty much you just argued back instead of
saying "whoa, person X seems to have good ears and ideas, maybe I
ought to think about that...".

I've tried, with pointers to articles, asking about your methodologies
of creating your pieces (conceptually and logistically), and pretty
much gotten nowhere.

Doesn't seem much point anymore, and I'm sorry for both the fact that
I overstayed my welcome, and that you appear to be loosening up just
as I go.

> Playing the triangle in
> San Diego will not automatically help me compose music in San Jose, so
> simply saying you are a musician and I should therefore defer to your
> opinions on matters musicial is not helpful.

I'm assuming that when you refer to me playing the triangle, it is
your way of indicating that you think what I do musically is
inconsequential. I take this as another indication that you give
absolutely NO weight or value to the opinion of musicians. You must
think I'm some kind of chimp. Fine.

Gene, really, don't waste your time replying, all we are doing is
beating a dead horse and wasting bits. Go do your tuning stuff.

Jon

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

>What I was saying is that the difference betweem
> musicians that I work with, perform with, rehearse with, and musicians
> that I read about, etc, etc. are not going to sit there and debate
> whether a tuning they just heard, if someone wrote a piece in JI,
> actully ended up in JI, or if this note was a cent off, or whatever.

This may be what you intended to say, but it was very far from what
you actually did say. If you don't wish to appear to be dismissing
people with contempt, your comparisons of the tuning list population
or members of it with members of your symphony orchestra should be
more careful.

> I did not "attack". Why you want to play the victim, I don't know.

You are contradicting yourself; one post you boast of standing up to
me, and in another you are a pacifist.

_You_ are a case in point
> where a number of people tried to be constructive in their comments
> about a piece or two, and pretty much you just argued back instead of
> saying "whoa, person X seems to have good ears and ideas, maybe I
> ought to think about that...".

I thought your comments about midi realizations have been valuable, as
have Paul's. What you call arguing back has in some cases been my
telling you the problems I have are not as easy for me to resolve as
you appear to think they should be. In the case of the oboe font, it
was a blanket rejection, but you did not seem to be telling me how to
make it sound better as music, but giving me orders as if I were a
sort of tuning slave, in order that my example would better suit your
own purposes rather than mine. Often your criticisms, while valuable,
are not politely phrased; at other times you simply piss and moan in
vague ways which amount to generic condemnations of groups of people.

Now that I have my new computer working, I suppose I should tackle
this again.

> Doesn't seem much point anymore, and I'm sorry for both the fact that
> I overstayed my welcome, and that you appear to be loosening up just
> as I go.

I thought talking was better than hissing at 20 paces.

> > Playing the triangle in
> > San Diego will not automatically help me compose music in San Jose, so
> > simply saying you are a musician and I should therefore defer to your
> > opinions on matters musicial is not helpful.
>
> I'm assuming that when you refer to me playing the triangle, it is
> your way of indicating that you think what I do musically is
> inconsequential.

The idea that percussion is inconsequental, or else that the triangle
is an inconsequental instrument (presumably it is one or the other you
have in mind) is an idea imported by entirely you, for which you have
and should assume full responsibility. Perhaps this is a a sore point
like the tone deaf business, but it ain't *my* thinking, it's all
yours, baby. Don't blame me for what "tone deaf" brings to mind, and
don't blame me for what "triangle" brings to mind. If some people
think you are some kind of musical chimpanzee whose pitch sensitivity
does not matter, leave the rest of us out of it.

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> This may be what you intended to say, but it was very far from what
> you actually did say. If you don't wish to appear to be dismissing
> people with contempt, your comparisons of the tuning list population
> or members of it with members of your symphony orchestra should be
> more careful.

If you are going to be adamantly pedantic, go back and see if I ever
mentioned the orchestra I work with. I work in many, many different
musical situations, most of which you are completly unaware. Yet you
decide you will try to humiliate my musical experiences by talking
about triangle playing.

We - and by that I mean people who have come to this table from a
musical background - have *always* been made to feel like we were
expected to bone up on math, to learn the canonical jargon of the
priesthood, and to bow and scrape before the gods of tables of
numbers. Yet make a comparison with musical values? Oh, hey, it is all
subjective and beyond that... your musical background means *nothing*!

> Often your criticisms, while valuable,
> are not politely phrased

Wow - any mirrors in your house?

> at other times you simply piss and moan in
> vague ways which amount to generic condemnations of groups of people.

I guess my condemnations could have been more specific. But then I'd
be attacking people.

> The idea that percussion is inconsequental, or else that the triangle
> is an inconsequental instrument (presumably it is one or the other you
> have in mind) is an idea imported by entirely you, for which you have
> and should assume full responsibility. Perhaps this is a a sore point
> like the tone deaf business, but it ain't *my* thinking, it's all
> yours, baby. Don't blame me for what "tone deaf" brings to mind, and
> don't blame me for what "triangle" brings to mind. If some people
> think you are some kind of musical chimpanzee whose pitch sensitivity
> does not matter, leave the rest of us out of it.

Fine. Two points:

1. I play a vast assortment of instruments in a vast array of musical
styles. Just what was your point of picking a triangle?

2. If I ever describe to you the image of pocket-protector laden,
thick-glasses-wearing, socially-backward math geeks, don't hold it
against me. It may be common in our society to have that as a negative
stereotype, but don't blame me for what that brings to mind.

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> 1. I play a vast assortment of instruments in a vast array of musical
> styles. Just what was your point of picking a triangle?

I was going to say timpani, but that seemed to suggest you just played
drums. Why are you so hypersensitive about this? Do *you* think people
who play triangles are musical chimps? You sound as if you do, frankly.

> 2. If I ever describe to you the image of pocket-protector laden,
> thick-glasses-wearing, socially-backward math geeks, don't hold it
> against me. It may be common in our society to have that as a negative
> stereotype, but don't blame me for what that brings to mind.

Jon, get a grip. You are simply beginning to foam at the mouth a al
McLaren. You are already bullying and hectoring.

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

this is pretty much the level of contempt i have gotten from most of you
over the last five years.

Gene Ward Smith wrote:

> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
>
> > I would compare you to brian , but i kind like his music
>
> Thanks; this is the kind of sweet-natured commentary which is certain
> to move us forward. It's great to see support an encouragement in the
> microtonal community to composition!
>
>
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-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

the entire list is an act of blood letting and one upmanship.
but i do hate, but honestly gene, i probably hate you the least
the others reap what they sow
these days i refuse to have the last word.
Gene Ward Smith wrote:

> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> > this is pretty much the level of contempt i have gotten from most of you
> > over the last five years.
>
> I had no problem with you until the day you jumped all over me for
> absolutely no reason at all. I think Jon has encouraged a bloodletting
> here with his macho talk about standing up to the bad guy in the black
> hat, but there is no reason not to try to do better than simply to
> descend into a hate-fest.
>
> In any case, I have not expressed contempt for you for the last five
> years. I have been the object of what seems like unmotivated hatred
> from you ("Get out of my light!" and all of that.)
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST