Re: Coincidence?

Probably its not a coincidence, and since anthrax is not spread
person to person a common source of seeding would need to be found
for the second case. In that regard this is interesting.

. Most worrisome to Stevens's neighbors was that their modest
neighborhood is directly under the flight path used by small planes
taking off from Palm Beach County Park Airport just a few blocks
away. That's the airport from which Mohamed Atta -- the suspected
pilot of the hijacked plane that slammed into the World Trade
Center's North Tower Sept. 11 -- rented a small plane on three
occasions during the month of August as part of his flight training.

Luckily for the most part flights are blocked over this island
because of a nature preserve Anyway, since actions do speak louder
than words I will report that Alex and I started taking our nosodes
to build up immunity. My body immediately relaxed, with a feeling
like ok we can handle this. Alex is feeling very weird and woozy. .

Your correspondent in Floriduhh
Mary

Mary - what are nosodes? Johnny

--- In metatuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> Mary - what are nosodes? Johnny

Nosodes are homeopathic preparations. By all conventional science
there is nothing there, yet many people, including myself, find it a
useful treatment. The royal family, for instance, always travels
with a homeopathic kit.

Anyway we got our "Biological Warfare kit, which has nosodes for
anthrax, botulism and smallpox,and is meant to build up immunity,
from BioElectric Homeopathics. Their phone number is 321 259 9090.
We also have a more direct remedy , anthracinum, in case of direct
exposure.

I've sent the kits off to my sister's families in NY and DC - it
makes me feel better at least, and lets me feel like I can do
something instead of just waiting like a deer caught in the
headlights.

Mary

Mary, I know your heart is in the right place, but I can't let this
one pass by without at least posting a link to a paper from the
National Council Against Health Fraud:
http://www.ncahf.org/pp/homeop.html

This other link is more entertaining (and sarcastic):
http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/homeopathy_memory.html

There, now I feel better.
Best wishes,
kp

--- In metatuning@y..., nanom3@h... wrote:
> Nosodes are homeopathic preparations. By all conventional science
> there is nothing there, yet many people, including myself, find it
a
> useful treatment. The royal family, for instance, always travels
> with a homeopathic kit.

Ok- I can't let this one pass by. Homeopathy is a major medical modality and
there are MDs who practice homeopathy, in fact there is a homeopathy school
in SF that you can only go to if you are a MD. There is a hospital in Phil.
named after the founder of homeopathy (Hahnemann). The UK royal family is
under the care of a homeopath (notice the age of the Queen Mum). If you
check your history, the AMA was basically founded to fight homeopathy and
the quick fix of antibiotics and cut-and-burn medicine contributed to
homeopathy's decline in the early 20th c. There has been a major resurgence
in the last thirty years or so, as the hidden dangers of antibiotics and
other allopathic meds are becomming apparant. It is true that science does
not understand how it works yet, but there is tantalizing research on the
water molecule and its ability to encode information (a homeopathic remedy
is primarily "information", and homeopathic dilutions are made in water or
alcohol).

On a personal note: I spent several years studying homeopathy and use it to
help myself, my family and friends. I have personally seen many amazing
cures both on myself and others first hand, and as far as I am concerned
there is not the slightest iota of doubt that it works, and can work
powerfully. Of course it is not magic, it does not work on everyone, nor
does it work on every ailment- there is no medical modality that does.
Homeopathy can only be dismissed if you don't take the time to look into it-
and it really takes very little "looking into" to determine its validity,
power, and beauty.

I could sit here and type all day talking about what homeopathy is, how it
was discovered, its history, and why it is so amazing, but I don't have the
time. Those who have an "(un)amazing randi" mindset will never listen, their
minds are already made up as to what will fit in their tiny view of reality.
There is ample information out there for anyone who is sincerely interested.

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: kris peck [mailto:kris.peck@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 1:51 PM
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [metatuning] Re: Coincidence?
>
>
> Mary, I know your heart is in the right place, but I can't let this
> one pass by without at least posting a link to a paper from the
> National Council Against Health Fraud:
> http://www.ncahf.org/pp/homeop.html
>
> This other link is more entertaining (and sarcastic):
> http://www.geocities.com/healthbase/homeopathy_memory.html
>
> There, now I feel better.
> Best wishes,
> kp
>
> --- In metatuning@y..., nanom3@h... wrote:
> > Nosodes are homeopathic preparations. By all conventional science
> > there is nothing there, yet many people, including myself, find it
> a
> > useful treatment. The royal family, for instance, always travels
> > with a homeopathic kit.
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

--- In metatuning@y..., "Rosati" <dante.interport@r...> wrote:

> there is tantalizing research on the
> water molecule and its ability to encode information

Do you have any references? I thought this whole phenomenon was
debunked, much like cold fusion.

> Those who have an "(un)amazing randi" mindset will never listen,
their
> minds are already made up as to what will fit in their tiny view of
reality.

This is absurd. I definitely have an amazing randi mindset -- the
mindset that says: test the phenomenon in controlled conditions, and
see if it works. It's utterly pragmatic. Guess what? I believe that
many homeopathic remedies have passed this test, based on what I've
read that is more recent than the 1994 article Kris presented.

Hi Dante

Thanks for a beautifully written explanation of homeopathy. I tend
to get very laid back about recommending it to others, having no
desire to be a whipping boy for the AMA, but I will say it loudly
here. I am an MD, I know what illnes and death are, and I have seen
homeopathy work many times and I am recommending it for myself and my
family in these times as a reasonable precaution. Everyone is free
to draw from that statment their own conclusions as to the
usefullness in their own lives. As Dante pointed out there are a
number of MD's who have come to similar conclusions.

The AMA has an awful lot of financial reasons to dismiss homeopathy
as quackery, just as they did for acupuncture until the evidence
there (2500 yrs Chinese hx not counting for them) was so overwhelming
that it was approved for some indications. Although in medical school
I regarded the Flexner Commision as a great good for society, in the
last ten years I have come 180 degrees from that viewpoint.
Traditional medicine is not not the only alternative. And there are
not nearly enough antibiotics and vaccines stockpiled for the whole
US population in the case of massive biological warfare.

Your immune system is always your first, and best line of defense.
Even looking at the small sample in Florida two men were
certainlyexposed to it but only one has dies - that is due to their
own immune systems handling of the insult. And their are a number of
things you can do to pep up your own immune system - the best
probably being a healthy mind!

Oh well back to packing. As the Chinese say "May you live in
interesting times".

Mary

Hi Paul-

There is a good book although its from '95: "Homeopathy- A Frontier in
Medical Science" by Paolo Bellavite MD and Andrea Signorini MD.

see also:

http://www.seanet.com/~vettf/Medline3.htm

> This is absurd. I definitely have an amazing randi mindset -- the
> mindset that says: test the phenomenon in controlled conditions, and
> see if it works. It's utterly pragmatic. Guess what? I believe that
> many homeopathic remedies have passed this test, based on what I've
> read that is more recent than the 1994 article Kris presented.

I've been amazed by the number of allopathic docs I've talked to who didn't
even know what homeopathy was. This I find amazing, since it has an
extensive 250+ year history. To me the idea that a doctor would not want to
investigate the history of his or her discipline as part of their training
is incomprehensible: to me is bespeaks a narrow-mindedness that is pathetic.
I guess the (un)amazing randi to me is someone who has already decided what
is and isn't possible and then tries to select and make the data fit their
assumptions. I know he claims objectivity, but he comes off more like a
religious fundamentalist trying to disprove evolution.

Dante

>

--- In metatuning@y..., "Rosati" <dante.interport@r...> wrote:

> I've been amazed by the number of allopathic docs I've talked to
who didn't
> even know what homeopathy was.

Do you even know what allopathy is??

> I guess the (un)amazing randi to me is someone who has already
decided what
> is and isn't possible and then tries to select and make the data
fit their
> assumptions. I know he claims objectivity, but he comes off more
like a
> religious fundamentalist trying to disprove evolution.

I don't see how you can compare the two. Randi is a skeptic, who
empirically tests the claims he's investigating. A religious
fundamentalist has no use for empirical evidence -- the truth is all
right there in that perfect book with absolutely no self-
contradiction :)

. To me the idea that a doctor would not want to
> investigate the history of his or her discipline as part of their
training
> is incomprehensible: to me is bespeaks a narrow-mindedness that is
pathetic.

Well in defense of the much maligned MD's learning allopathic
medicine alone is an enormous undertaking. There is also a pressure,
a culture and a mindset that dismisses what isn't understood that is
very hard to stand up to. I think everyone on this list can relate to
that. And there is of course also real quackery and malpractice
liability. All in all there are a lot of reasons why MD's don't look
outside their boxes :-)

Mary

> Do you even know what allopathy is??

Yes. Do you?

Dante

--- In metatuning@y..., "Rosati" <dante.interport@r...> wrote:
>
> > Do you even know what allopathy is??
>
> Yes. Do you?

Yes I do. So unless you're well over 100 years old, the number of
allopathic doctors you've talked to is probably zero.

> Yes I do. So unless you're well over 100 years old, the number of
> allopathic doctors you've talked to is probably zero.

"homeopathy" and "allopathy" are opposite modalities: when you give an
anti-inflammatory to fight inflammation, you are treating allopathically.
when you give a homeopathic remedy made from a substance that, in material
doses, can cause inflammation, you are treating homeopathically. Most docs
these days are mostly allopathic, although not entirely- unless I'm
mistaken, Ritalin causes hyperactivity and is used to treat hyperactivity in
children (although they are using material doses unnecessarily).

Dante

--- In metatuning@y..., "Rosati" <dante.interport@r...> wrote:
> see also:
>
> http://www.seanet.com/~vettf/Medline3.htm

Dante-
I respect your honesty in posting this, as these scientific
references are mostly very unflattering toward homeopathy. In my
mind, the more information is out there, the better-- regardless of
what "side" it supports, as long as the quality of research and
critical thinking is there. Best to make decisions based on lots of
substantial information rather than "just trust me"...

Peace,
kp

Also, since you keep mentioning arch-skeptic "The [un]Amazing" James
Randi, let's post his link for any curious folks:

http://www.randi.org/

My own definition of an allopath is a doctor who hasn't yet gotten
seriously ill themselves :-)

But right now I am just chuckling about a story from my residency tht
perhaps others might find humerous (and it beats hearing about
another biohazerdous evacuation in Florida)

I was paired throughout much of my residency with a brilliant young
doctor from Yale who actually reminds me somewhat of Paul :-)
Although his sharp intelligence was often seen as arrogance in truth
he was extremely sweet and kindhearted. But Mark, as we shall call
him, was also an extreme skeptic about anything outside the
scientific paradigm. In fact it was he who introduced me to the
skeptic journals and amazing randi and so on.

Well as part of our curriculum a psychologist and practicing
hypnotist was invited to a residency seminar.. Mark was extremely
skeptical,scathing and quite funny about this man's speciality. So
when the hypnotist asked for a volunteer Mark was of course the first
with his hand up. He went up to the podium and as he was shaking
hands he went into a full trance and started falling backwards. The
hypnotist caught him, brought him out of trance and asked if he
remembered anything. Marc said of course we were just saying hello.
The rest of us residents in the peanut gallery were stunned, then
just started laughing, cause you didn't pull the wool over this guy,
ever, yet he had no memory of starting to fall backwards.

The hypnotist explained what had happened and Mark of course
vehemently denied it. Then with a small movement of his hand he
again put Mark back into a full trance, who then sat there for half
an hour demonstrating all sorts of things about hypnosis (nothing
embarassing although we were all sort of hoping he would have Mark do
something silly). Then he brought him out of trance again,and Marc
again had no memory of the last half hour. The expression on his
face when all the rest of us assured him tht he had indeed been
sitting there for a half an hour answering innocuous questions was
almost worth the price of admission to medical school.

And that is my memory of direct experience being a remarkable
antidote to extreme skepticsm..

Kris-

There is an important difficulty with the history of so-called scientific or
controlled trials of homeopathy, and that is a failure to follow the
homeopathic principle of matching the remedy to the totality of symptoms.
You cannot test the efficacy of a particular homeopathic remedy for a given
disease- ten people presenting with local symptoms that will be diagnosed
under a given label may in reality require ten different remedies. Trials
are often conducted giving everyone with a certain "disease" the same
remedy, which is emphatically not homeopathy (or not good homeopathy
anyway).

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: kris peck [mailto:kris.peck@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 4:59 PM
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [metatuning] Re: Coincidence?
>
>
> --- In metatuning@y..., "Rosati" <dante.interport@r...> wrote:
> > see also:
> >
> > http://www.seanet.com/~vettf/Medline3.htm
>
> Dante-
> I respect your honesty in posting this, as these scientific
> references are mostly very unflattering toward homeopathy. In my
> mind, the more information is out there, the better-- regardless of
> what "side" it supports, as long as the quality of research and
> critical thinking is there. Best to make decisions based on lots of
> substantial information rather than "just trust me"...
>
> Peace,
> kp
>
> Also, since you keep mentioning arch-skeptic "The [un]Amazing" James
> Randi, let's post his link for any curious folks:
>
> http://www.randi.org/
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

--- In metatuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> --- In metatuning@y..., "Rosati" <dante.interport@r...> wrote:
> >
> > > Do you even know what allopathy is??
> >
> > Yes. Do you?
>
> Yes I do. So unless you're well over 100 years old, the number of
> allopathic doctors you've talked to is probably zero.

There are plenty of practitioners who consider themselves allopaths
http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/969989270.html
for one. There is a little clinic here in Denver with a couple (an
actual couple!) of allopaths. Of course, we are very close to
Boulder.... Now I personally don't believe in such things, but
sometimes folks stumble across some improbable treatment that has some
merit, so I'm keeping my mind open just a tiny crack.

Recall that chiropractic medicine was considered a complete fraud by
the AMA for years, despite its clinically proven efficacy for some
back pain problems. I have used chiropractors myself, and until MDs
can do the same magic, I will stick with these "quacks". I do draw the
line at laser aura piercing, though.

John Starrett

--- In metatuning@y..., "Rosati" <dante.interport@r...> wrote:
> Kris-
>
> There is an important difficulty with the history of so-called
> scientific or controlled trials of homeopathy, and that is a failure
> to follow the homeopathic principle of matching the remedy to the
> totality of symptoms.You cannot test the efficacy of a particular
> homeopathic remedy for a given disease- ten people presenting with
> local symptoms that will be diagnosed under a given label may in
> reality require ten different remedies. Trials are often conducted
> giving everyone with a certain "disease" the same remedy, which is
> emphatically not homeopathy (or not good homeopathy anyway).
>
> Dante

So it cannot count as science. If homeopathy is to be explained
perhaps homeopaths will have to design trials themselves. If
homeopathy can be taught, and ther is a body of evidence attesting
to its success, then certainly there is a mechanism by which it
operates. The "scientific" explanations I've seen for its mechanism
just don't make sense. If it is claimed that water or alcohol have a
"memory" of some sort, then the memory should be measurable in some
way or other. Otherwise such an explanation is useless.

John Starrett

Just came back from the chiropractor...ice on my back. John Starrett is right
about them. I'd throw in some therapeutic massage (once every few weeks),
and occasional acupuncture. Meditation is a good idea, if your left brain
permits.

Since balancing stress is important for everyone right now, and since my
asthma require extra efforts, I'm taking a week in Holland (October 16-23).
When I come back, I might have better perspective on how to proceed with the
AFMM.

Best, Johnny Reinhard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In metatuning@y..., "John Starrett" <jstarret@c...> wrote:
> --- In metatuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > --- In metatuning@y..., "Rosati" <dante.interport@r...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Do you even know what allopathy is??
> > >
> > > Yes. Do you?
> >
> > Yes I do. So unless you're well over 100 years old, the number of
> > allopathic doctors you've talked to is probably zero.
>
> There are plenty of practitioners who consider themselves allopaths
> http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/969989270.html
> for one. There is a little clinic here in Denver with a couple (an
> actual couple!) of allopaths. Of course, we are very close to
> Boulder.... Now I personally don't believe in such things,

You don't believe in conventional medicine, John? "Allopaths", in
this article and in Dante's posting, are conventional doctors, as
opposed to homeopaths. The reason I objected to Dante's statement is
that modern medicine is far more sophisticated today than in the day
when the terms "allopathy" and "homeopathy" were coined (both by the
founder of homeopathy). . . in those days, the theories
behind "allopathy" involved "humors" and the like . . . look how long
life expectancy has increased in societies with modern medicine since
then!

No, practicioners such as these calling themselves allopaths are kind
of like pro-choice advocates calling themselves "pro-death".

> but
> sometimes folks stumble across some improbable treatment that has
some
> merit, so I'm keeping my mind open just a tiny crack.
>
> Recall that chiropractic medicine was considered a complete fraud
by
> the AMA for years, despite its clinically proven efficacy for some
> back pain problems. I have used chiropractors myself, and until MDs
> can do the same magic, I will stick with these "quacks".

Aren't these called "osteopaths"? Even the extremely harsh _Skeptic's
Dictionary_ admits:

"There is a growing body of scientific evidence that chiropractic is
effective in the treatment of many lower back ailments and neck
injuries. There is some evidence that chiropractic is effective for
the treatment of certain kinds of headaches and other
pains." . . . "It has firmly established itself as an effective
treatment for lower back pain."

But of course, many chiropractors go further and deny that bacteria
and viruses cause sickness . . . that's where the "quack" label might
apply.

Hi Everyone

It really tickles me to see everyone talking about alternative health
practices - I think its really healthy :-) I can tell you from
experience that it is much better to take care of yourself with kind
of low tech maintenance like chiropractic and yoga and such than it
is to wait for "the big one" before you even think about it.

. I'd throw in some therapeutic massage (once every few weeks),
> and occasional acupuncture. Meditation is a good idea, if your
left brain
> permits.

Agree with all of the above. Will also add craniosacral therapy to
that list, which is my favorite. I find it very easy to sleep into
what is called "still point" and find that after sessions I tend to
be most creative and productive.

>
> Since balancing stress is important for everyone right now,

no kidding. The apphrehension is very draining..yesterday on the way
to dinner saw the front of our local hospital cordoned off, with
police and news and men in thse white moon suits that remind me of
Woody Allen and Sleeper. Turns out our local hospital is one of two
certifed in Southern florida for bioterrorism, and some people from
Boca who found white powder(not the usual South Florida white powder)
on an envelope where being hosed and decontaminated there.

Kind of upsetting to see this all going on in your backyard, and I am
concentrating on staying calm and cheerful (repeat 100 times - I am
serene I am one with my universe I am numb.... :_))))

and since my

> asthma require extra efforts, I'm taking a week in Holland (October
16-23).
> When I come back, I might have better perspective on how to proceed
with the
> AFMM.

Good luckAmsterdam is beautiful in the fall..

Peace,
Mary

--- In metatuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
<snip>
> You don't believe in conventional medicine, John? "Allopaths", in
> this article and in Dante's posting, are conventional doctors, as
> opposed to homeopaths.
<snip>

I do use conventional medicine and whatever else works. When I have a
severe back pain that is a result of my
foolish-younger-days-piano-moving-excesses I have a chiropractor
"adjust" me. All I care about is his ability to relieve the pain and
stop the muscle spasms. Good chiropractors can do this, while most
doctors would prescribe some bed rest, muscle relaxants, and back
exercises. Exercises are good, but the pills and bedrest are
unnessecary if you have been properly cracked. Of course to deny virii
and microbes' involvement with illness is foolish. As to the
allopathy, I don't know what people who call themselves this really do
these days. I just happen to know of these people through an old
chiropractor (who I stopped visiting once he started playing with
crystals at the expense of good old fashioned cracking).

> > but
> > sometimes folks stumble across some improbable treatment that has
> > some merit, so I'm keeping my mind open just a tiny crack.
> > Recall that chiropractic medicine was considered a complete fraud
> > by the AMA for years, despite its clinically proven efficacy for
> > some back pain problems. I have used chiropractors myself, and
> > until MDs can do the same magic, I will stick with these "quacks".
>
> Aren't these called "osteopaths"?

The old boy I go to calls himself a chiropractor.
I also use Echinasia for warding off colds because it works for me.

If you think I am anything but a hard nosed pragmatist, you are
thinking of another John Starrett. I don't begrudge folks for doing
what works for them, but I don't cotton to scientism (explanations
using the language of science without the content).

John Starrett

--- In metatuning@y..., "John Starrett" <jstarret@c...> wrote:

> As to the
> allopathy, I don't know what people who call themselves this really
do
> these days. I just happen to know of these people through an old
> chiropractor [. . .]

Interesting. So maybe some doctors are concerning themselves
with "humors" and the like, even today. Are these the kinds of
doctors you've talked to, Dante? Or were you just referring to
conventional M.D.s?

> So it cannot count as science. If homeopathy is to be explained
> perhaps homeopaths will have to design trials themselves. If
> homeopathy can be taught, and ther is a body of evidence attesting
> to its success, then certainly there is a mechanism by which it
> operates. The "scientific" explanations I've seen for its mechanism
> just don't make sense. If it is claimed that water or alcohol have a
> "memory" of some sort, then the memory should be measurable in some
> way or other. Otherwise such an explanation is useless.
>
> John Starrett

Every time a homeopath gives a remedy, it is part of a trial that has been
going on since H. discovered the laws of similars and the minimum dose.
There used to be old journals filled with cured cases, now of course
computerized databases are being compiled. If the "scientific" explanations
don't make sense, then that just means they haven't "saved the appearances"
yet to anyone's satisfaction. In the meantime, the cures keep happening, new
remedies are brought into the materia medica, and the understanding of the
depth and scope of remedies is constantly expanded, which is all that really
matters.

Dante

Terminology changes- it used to be "humors" now its "terrains" and
"constitutions". Yes, I was referring to "conventional" MDs when I was
talking about closed mindedness and willful ignorance.
But they are slowly coming around- hell, they're even starting to agree that
taking vitamins is good for you, and now they acknowledge that garlic and
broccoli can have powerful antibiotic and anti cancer properties. Homeopathy
works- this is not in doubt. How it works has not been yet determined, but
as Hahnemann said "the mission of the physician is to cure the sick, not
construct theories". Homeopathy is empirical medicine, based solely on
experimentation and observation. Theoreticians can have fun trying to
explain it, although I suspect it will not be understandable under old
paradigms.

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Erlich [mailto:paul@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 6:36 PM
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [metatuning] Re: Coincidence?
>
>
> --- In metatuning@y..., "John Starrett" <jstarret@c...> wrote:
>
> > As to the
> > allopathy, I don't know what people who call themselves this really
> do
> > these days. I just happen to know of these people through an old
> > chiropractor [. . .]
>
> Interesting. So maybe some doctors are concerning themselves
> with "humors" and the like, even today. Are these the kinds of
> doctors you've talked to, Dante? Or were you just referring to
> conventional M.D.s?
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
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>
>