Farenheit 9/11

I'll keep this brief. I enjoyed it, and thought it was
much better than Bowling. It has wit and power and it
makes some good points. Chiefly, that there is a
conflict of interest between the current administration
and economic development in the Middle East. I would
have liked more detail on the prior neoconservative
plans to invade Iraq.

Cinematically, it was a steaming pile of a film that
might have been edited in someone's basement. Also,
Moore is at it again editing audio over video to which
it does not belong, Hard Copy style. And Moore is
still an asshole, though he is capable of a sort of
vigilante reporting that I find redeeming.

I re-read Hutchins' review, and it holds up pretty well
as far as the content of the film is concerned.

It seems we live in a society that feels guilty about
colonialism but practices it anyway, causing neurosis.
If we want the oil, we can't stand people like Saddam
controlling this region, let's just do it. Else,
let's not. The Bush administration and the Moore camp
are equally pathetic -- the former has to concoct
obviously stupid excuses for its colonial lust, while
the latter actas if colonialism and capitalism are
some new, shocking phenomena.

Still, it's good to be reminded what a horrible thing
is war. I can't remember such a controversial
statement attaining such popularity in my lifetime.
Recommended.

-Carl

Carl Lumma wrote:

> I'll keep this brief. I enjoyed it, and thought it was
> much better than Bowling. It has wit and power and it
> makes some good points. Chiefly, that there is a
> conflict of interest between the current administration
> and economic development in the Middle East. I would
> have liked more detail on the prior neoconservative
> plans to invade Iraq.

then it would have been called a conspiracy film

>
>
> Cinematically, it was a steaming pile of a film that
> might have been edited in someone's basement. Also,
> Moore is at it again editing audio over video to which
> it does not belong, Hard Copy style.

gee you must hate every film maker from kubrick to goddard to tarkovski to
Passolini

> And Moore is
> still an asshole, though he is capable of a sort of
> vigilante reporting that I find redeeming.
>
> I re-read Hutchins' review, and it holds up pretty well
> as far as the content of the film is concerned.

Hitchin's comments would apply to the nightly news , which he seems to
have no problem with

>
>
> It seems we live in a society that feels guilty about
> colonialism but practices it anyway, causing neurosis.

agreed and it explains why most people prefer ignorance as it is a (moral)
dilemma that is not easy to get out of. For instance, let us say that the
saudis did it (i do not think so) and they control 6-7% of the economy.
what could possibly be done that wasn't the economic equivalent of suicide
( or suicide bombing).

>
> If we want the oil, we can't stand people like Saddam
> controlling this region, let's just do it. Else,
> let's not.

It seems like if we want oil , we can't have anyone else, regardless if
they are a saddam or not, controlling it

> The Bush administration and the Moore camp
> are equally pathetic -- the former has to concoct
> obviously stupid excuses for its colonial lust, while
> the latter actas if colonialism and capitalism are
> some new, shocking phenomena.

I doubt that Moore finds this shocking, but understand how shocking it is
to the great hordes of the 'fearful" In this sense he is being as gentle
as possible. He really offers no solution as one side is implicated as
much as the other.

>
>
> Still, it's good to be reminded what a horrible thing
> is war.

something the press has refused to do

> I can't remember such a controversial
> statement attaining such popularity in my lifetime.

I think the popularity of this statement has been their the whole time
which is who is filling up the long lines. most of these in the cities i
would imagine are already there. the thing is is that the media is as
controlled as pravda once was and 'film' is the last refuge where
something like this can come out.

>
> Recommended.
>
> -Carl
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

> > Cinematically, it was a steaming pile of a film that
> > might have been edited in someone's basement. Also,
> > Moore is at it again editing audio over video to which
> > it does not belong, Hard Copy style.
>
> gee you must hate every film maker from kubrick to
> goddard to tarkovski to Passolini

I'm no fan of Passolini. Tarkovski's pretty good.
I don't have much exposure to Goddard. Kubrick is
easily the best film maker to date.

Moore is attempting documentary, or journalism, or
something similar. Compositing sources like he does
is a bit out of line.

> > I re-read Hutchins' review, and it holds up pretty well
> > as far as the content of the film is concerned.
>
> Hitchin's comments would apply to the nightly news,
> which he seems to have no problem with

I'm not saying I agree with Hitchins, just that his
summary of the movie's contents seems accurate (which
Gene cast into doubt).

> > If we want the oil, we can't stand people like Saddam
> > controlling this region, let's just do it. Else,
> > let's not.
>
> It seems like if we want oil , we can't have anyone else,
> regardless if they are a saddam or not, controlling it

Perhaps.

> > The Bush administration and the Moore camp
> > are equally pathetic -- the former has to concoct
> > obviously stupid excuses for its colonial lust, while
> > the latter actas if colonialism and capitalism are
> > some new, shocking phenomena.
>
> I doubt that Moore finds this shocking, but understand how
> shocking it is to the great hordes of the 'fearful"

Perhaps.

-Carl

Carl,

Kudos to you for not only attending but looking at the film with an
apparantly open-minded attitude. I know you had quite a bit of
antipathy towards MM prior to this, and I'd hope I could be this open
in my investigations as well.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> I would
> have liked more detail on the prior neoconservative
> plans to invade Iraq.

I know you are speaking about the film per se, but there isn't a
subject that has been covered so thoroughly as the rise of the neo-
cons in the current Bush admin. There have been a long series of
exposes in the New Yorker, and a couple of books as well. I don't
have current sources, but Perle, Wolfowitz, Libby, Feith, and the
whole lot of them (along with their crony/lackies like Chalabi) have
been shown to be the conniving scum they are for quite a while. I
frankly lay the fate of our world at their feet rather than the
pathetic moron Bush.

> The Bush administration and the Moore camp
> are equally pathetic -- the former has to concoct
> obviously stupid excuses for its colonial lust, while
> the latter actas if colonialism and capitalism are
> some new, shocking phenomena.

I don't agree. I think the latter have been clear about the heinous
behavior of the government, but are chagrined at how the eyes of the
populous have glazed over, lulled into a stupor by the personal
econmic gains of the 80's and the late 90's. Hey, I got mine,
everyone else can go do whatever they want, and I don't have to think
about the world...

> Still, it's good to be reminded what a horrible thing
> is war. I can't remember such a controversial
> statement attaining such popularity in my lifetime.

Even with all the attention, it still is pretty astonishing to see
that in three days it was the #1 movie in the country (a first for a
documentary), outgrossed the *total* gross for "Columbine", and it
was playing on less than 900 screens.

But we are still pretty screwed at this point, even if we kick out
the Shrub.

Cheers,
Jon

Hey all,

I saw 'Farenheit 9/11' last night, and I think it's definately a new,
restrained, more powerful Michael Moore at work. I thought he let the facts,
the interviews and clips (like that of military mother Lila Lipscombe), and
the damning clips of Bush speak, and do damage, by themselves -- without a
lot of 'massaging' from Moore. This is already a different approach from
'Bowling for Columbine', where he had *much* more on-camera time.

Powerful moments for me:

*Lila Lipscombes' arc of belief from her introduction in Flint, to her visit
to the grounds of the White House.

*The election of 2000 being decided by no vote from a Senator on the floor of
the House, with Gore presiding !!! (This was news to me, and an illustration
of how our media avoids contentious ironies llike these in its' coverage).

*The Bush-Saudi royal connection was made crystal clear in a way that no
anti-Bush internet site ever could.

*The 9/11 attacks were powerfully portrayed, with 'sound only', and a black
screen. It brought back much of the raw horror of that day for me.

*Moore asking the Senators to send their children was a brilliant touch, and
illustrates Moore at his best. I felt he was very much more restrained here
than in 'Columbine', and the results much more powerful for me.

Whatever one thinks of Moore's own ego and somewhat hypocritical behavior at
times (like not returning Ray Bradbury's phone calls, something he bashes his
documentary subjects for), he is no doubt an extremely huge force on the
political scene today, and as powerful an answer to Fox News and Rush
Limbaugh as we are likely to ever see gain the hearts and minds of the
general public, and for that alone, he should be celebrated.

All-in-all, a must-see, in my opinion, and it must have Karl Rove and pals
shitting their pants about November!!!

-Aaron.

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.dividebypi.com
http://www.akjmusic.com

This Particular sequence for me showed what a great film maker he is. I
actually found it more horrifying than watching planes go into buildings,
thousands of times. He understand that the horrors of war or terrorism is
comprehensible only on a the most human level.

The execution in saudi arabia before the giant crowd , i find the most
haunting, almost a dreamlike/nightmarish image. something more perverse than
the video of their rivals

"Aaron K. Johnson" wrote:

>
>
> *The 9/11 attacks were powerfully portrayed, with 'sound only', and a black
> screen. It brought back much of the raw horror of that day for me.
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST