Complex rhythms/meters

Since this topic has currently come up on the tuning list, I thought
I'd mention . . . I saw a concert, "Masters of Indian Music", last
night, with [L.] Shankar and Gingger each on a 10-string doubleneck
electric violin; Zakir Hussain on tablas; and T.H. "Vikku" Vinayakram
on ghatam. The second set consisted entirely of one piece in a 15
3/4 - beat tala (that's fifteen and three-quarters)!

--- In metatuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> Since this topic has currently come up on the tuning list, I thought
> I'd mention . . . I saw a concert, "Masters of Indian Music", last
> night, with [L.] Shankar and Gingger each on a 10-string doubleneck
> electric violin; Zakir Hussain on tablas; and T.H. "Vikku"
> Vinayakram
> on ghatam. The second set consisted entirely of one piece in a 15
> 3/4 - beat tala (that's fifteen and three-quarters)!

You lucky Dukk. There are advantages to living on the east coast.

John Starrett

--- In metatuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> Since this topic has currently come up on the tuning list, I
thought
> I'd mention . . . I saw a concert, "Masters of Indian Music", last
> night, with [L.] Shankar and Gingger each on a 10-string doubleneck
> electric violin; Zakir Hussain on tablas; and T.H. "Vikku"
Vinayakram
> on ghatam. The second set consisted entirely of one piece in a 15
> 3/4 - beat tala (that's fifteen and three-quarters)!

Paul,

You are very lucky indeed to get to see these Masters. These are my
heros!

I have some L. Shankar and Hussain recordings in these complex meters
and they have inspired me for many years.

With the sounds of glorious meend fresh in your mind, do you see what
I mean about the importance of expressive bending of the notes?

What about you dear friend - do you ever explore unusual rhythms?
What meters do you enjoy playing composing with? Does your group use
and odd meters or polymeters?

The only person I know (of) who has explored this throughly in their
music from the tuning forums is Brother Kraig Grady (who I miss
terribly these days).

Where it's at for me is polymeters. Currently working on music in
cycles up to 47.

Margo Schulter and I had an interesting discussion about this
recently, and she informed me lots about polymetrical music and
hocketing in the middle ages - extremely fascinating to learn about!
(Thanks Margo!)

To me - meter is as an important area of musical exploration as
tuning is any day. Used to write allot of complex music back in the
90s with nested prime polymeters, changing very rapidly throughout
the composition(s). Today I'm more interested in long prime cycles.
Too bad that these discussions come up so infrequently for me. This
is one of my *top* favorite topics - and nowhwere to have dialog
about it.

Thanks,

Jacky Ligon

--- In metatuning@y..., "John Starrett" <jstarret@c...> wrote:
> --- In metatuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > Since this topic has currently come up on the tuning list, I
thought
> > I'd mention . . . I saw a concert, "Masters of Indian Music",
last
> > night, with [L.] Shankar and Gingger each on a 10-string
doubleneck
> > electric violin; Zakir Hussain on tablas; and T.H. "Vikku"
> > Vinayakram
> > on ghatam. The second set consisted entirely of one piece in a 15
> > 3/4 - beat tala (that's fifteen and three-quarters)!
>
> You lucky Dukk. There are advantages to living on the east coast.
>
> John Starrett

I guess so. The concert was at Harvard's Sanders Theater, and though
it was sold out, I stood in line for the possible release of extra
tickets after the show had begun . . . (I came just in time to get a
decent place on that line) . . . I paid $40 each for two tickets
(there were originally $20 and $30 tickets, but not for me!).

P.S. John, I got the Mad Duxx CDs back from Gabriel Jones (who needed
to copy them during his brief visit to the USA), so I'll listen to
them and let you know where my favorite excerpts are . . .

--- In metatuning@y..., ligonj@n... wrote:
>
> With the sounds of glorious meend fresh in your mind, do you see
what
> I mean about the importance of expressive bending of the notes?

Never doubted it . . . in fact, that's one of the main reasons I love
the electric guitar so much . . . though U. Srinivas does the
impossible by emulating meend exceedingly well by just sliding across
the frets of his 12-tET mandolin!
>
> What about you dear friend - do you ever explore unusual rhythms?
> What meters do you enjoy playing composing with? Does your group
use
> and odd meters or polymeters?

Only scratched the surface. Stretch plays Take 5, and has been known
to jam in 9 with bars of 11 thrown in. With my
tabla/didjeridoo/acoustic guitar group, I like to play in 7 . . . 7
isn't too hard if you've listened to as much Yes as I have.

I thoroughly enjoyed the free-flowing meters on _Galunlati_, Jacky.
>
> To me - meter is as an important area of musical exploration as
> tuning is any day. Used to write allot of complex music back in the
> 90s with nested prime polymeters, changing very rapidly throughout
> the composition(s). Today I'm more interested in long prime cycles.
> Too bad that these discussions come up so infrequently for me. This
> is one of my *top* favorite topics - and nowhwere to have dialog
> about it.

Perhaps you should start a "timing" list . . . I bet, if you
publicized it to enough yahoogroups, you could quickly swell its
ranks to larger than that of the tuning list . . . remember, most
musicians can't be bothered with consciously considering the
difference between Indian and Western tunings . . . but timing is a
whole different matter!

and she informed me lots about polymetrical music and
hocketing in the middle ages - extremely fascinating to learn about!
(Thanks Margo!)

Oh Jacky do share please. The knowledge of 500 years ago always
astounds me, if only to show sometimes nothing really changes :-)

And Paul I give up. How do you know the metre was 15 and 3/4 and not
63/4.

My memories of Sanders Hall are far less pleasant - remember it as an
enormous cavern that was the site of most of my math and science
finals.

Peace
Mary

--- In metatuning@y..., nanom3@h... wrote:

>
> And Paul I give up. How do you know the metre was 15 and 3/4 and
not
> 63/4.

a) Because Shankar said so.
b) Because of the "feel" of what they were playing. 15 "measures"
with 4 sixteenth notes, followed by one with 3 sixteenth notes.
Perhaps 7 and 7/8 would have made some sense. But there was no sign
of, say, nine "measures" of seven sixteenth notes each, or
seven "measures" of nine sixteenth notes each. Such an appoach would
certainly have been interesting, but instead, we were treated to
amazing displays of quintuplets by Vikku, etc.
c) Because of the hand signals each of the musicians were using while
the others were playing.

> From: <ligonj@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 2:51 PM
> Subject: [metatuning] Re: Complex rhythms/meters
>
>
> What about you dear friend - do you ever explore unusual rhythms?
> What meters do you enjoy playing composing with? Does your group use
> and odd meters or polymeters?
>
> The only person I know (of) who has explored this throughly in their
> music from the tuning forums is Brother Kraig Grady (who I miss
> terribly these days).

Hi Jacky,

While I haven't done any really systematic kind of metrical or
rhythmical work, I do love to compose in complex, asymmetrical,
and/or changing meters. I suppose about half of my stuff is in
in "ordinary" meters and half in the unusual ones.

> To me - meter is as an important area of musical exploration as
> tuning is any day.

I have to echo that thought.

> Too bad that these discussions come up so infrequently for me. This
> is one of my *top* favorite topics - and nowhwere to have dialog
> about it.

Hmmm... the birth pangs of yet another Yahoo list?...

love / peace / harmony ...

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

--- In metatuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> --- In metatuning@y..., ligonj@n... wrote:
> >
> > With the sounds of glorious meend fresh in your mind, do you see
> what I mean about the importance of expressive bending of the
notes?
>
> Never doubted it . . . in fact, that's one of the main reasons I
love the electric guitar so much . . . though U. Srinivas does the
> impossible by emulating meend exceedingly well by just sliding
across the frets of his 12-tET mandolin!

Yes - I have also heard a number of Indian 12 tET guitar players do
this as well, and it is sweet.

> >
> > What about you dear friend - do you ever explore unusual rhythms?
> > What meters do you enjoy playing composing with? Does your group
> use and odd meters or polymeters?
>
> Only scratched the surface. Stretch plays Take 5, and has been
known to jam in 9 with bars of 11 thrown in. With my
> tabla/didjeridoo/acoustic guitar group, I like to play in 7 . . . 7
> isn't too hard if you've listened to as much Yes as I have.

I LOVE 5, 7 and 11! One at a time or all together!

>
> I thoroughly enjoyed the free-flowing meters on _Galunlati_, Jacky.

Thank you kindly Paul - I appreciate that. BTW - the title track
Galunlati and Ten Thousand things are in a polymetrical structure of
5,7,11,13 and time is ordered with Latin Squares.

This
> > is one of my *top* favorite topics - and nowhwere to have dialog
> > about it.
>

Paul:
> Perhaps you should start a "timing" list . . . I bet, if you
> publicized it to enough yahoogroups, you could quickly swell its
> ranks to larger than that of the tuning list . . . remember, most
> musicians can't be bothered with consciously considering the
> difference between Indian and Western tunings . . . but timing is a
> whole different matter!

and she informed me lots about polymetrical music and
hocketing in the middle ages - extremely fascinating to learn about!
(Thanks Margo!)

Mary:
Oh Jacky do share please. The knowledge of 500 years ago always
astounds me, if only to show sometimes nothing really changes :-)

The basic thing was that three part music would be in a number of
overlapping meters. The excitement is when this is being sang!
Hocketing - I always thought was 4 over 3, but I think there can be
much more to it than this.

Monz:
While I haven't done any really systematic kind of metrical or
rhythmical work, I do love to compose in complex, asymmetrical,
and/or changing meters. I suppose about half of my stuff is in
in "ordinary" meters and half in the unusual ones.

JL:
Which ones to you tend to enjoy the most Master Monz? You like
primes???

Monz:
Hmmm... the birth pangs of yet another Yahoo list?...

JL:
What I would suggest is that this is something - that I feel - would
be ok for MMM. This is an inseperable part of my music.

If it's ok with List Mom. Whad-da-ya think Ma? If this is ok -
perhaps Margo could elaborate for us all about the polymetrical nad
hocketing music she has discussed with me.

Thanks,

Jacky

> From: <ligonj@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 6:28 PM
> Subject: [metatuning] Re: Complex rhythms/meters
>
>
> Monz:
> While I haven't done any really systematic kind of metrical or
> rhythmical work, I do love to compose in complex, asymmetrical,
> and/or changing meters. I suppose about half of my stuff is in
> in "ordinary" meters and half in the unusual ones.
>
> JL:
> Which ones to you tend to enjoy the most Master Monz? You like
> primes???

Of course I like primes, silly rabbit! :)

But mostly I enjoy setting up a prime time signature (hmmm...
almost sounds like there's a pun trying to get out of there!),
then dividing it up into interesting subdivisions of its components.

For example, my _24-eq Tune_, which a lot of people seem to like,
<http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/24-eq/24-eq.htm> has a meter
of 13, divided into 3 + 3 + 3 + 2 + 2, which can be neatly summarized
as 3^2 + 2^2.

Another tactic, which I used in both Part 1 of _19-tone Samba_
<http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/19tet/19samba.htm> and
in _Bulgaria Unlimited_ (very old tune, not on the web yet),
uses a meter of 14 which is subdivided into 7 + 7, but each
of those 7's is a mirror of the other: 4 + 3 and 3 + 4.

(My inspiration for doing these sorts of things comes from my
admiration (upon hearing it at age 17) of Don Ellis's _Bulgarian Bulge_.
That tune is also what got me very interested in real Bulgarian
folk music.)

And obviously, _3 Plus 4_ (4.8 megs, download from the mp3.com site at
<http://play.mp3.com/cgi-bin/play/play.cgi/AAIAQowJBgDABG5vcm1QBAAAAFJhHAEAU
QEAAABD2R22O3UV8su3o0FFuoVJLeAN_Fw-/34_by_Joe_Monzo.m3u>
was named in honor of its meter: 7, divided consistently into 3 + 4.

But more often I simply toss in a few measures with a meter (or
several different changing meters) which differ from that used
in the rest of the piece. An example of this is the section
with the lyrics "I call your name" from _As Long As We Live_,
which opens with my "List of Works" page
<http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/worklist/worklist.htm>.

What amuses me the most is finding a particularly groove (whether
quirky or ordinary) and tripping it up from time to time. :)

My latest piece, the most recent version of which is awaiting
11-limit adaptive-JI retuning by John deLaubenfels before I post it,
uses changing meters all over the place during the Theme 1 sections.

love / peace / harmony ...

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Jacky, Margo, Monz, Paul, everyone!

--- In metatuning@y..., ligonj@n... wrote:
> Monz:
> Hmmm... the birth pangs of yet another Yahoo list?...
>
>
> JL:
> What I would suggest is that this is something - that I feel -
> would be ok for MMM. This is an inseperable part of my music.
>
> If it's ok with List Mom. Whad-da-ya think Ma? If this is ok -
> perhaps Margo could elaborate for us all about the polymetrical nad
> hocketing music she has discussed with me.

Look, anything that is relating to the music that you are making with
microtones is perfectly and universaly swell on MMM. If it wanders
too far away from that, say maybe into the arcana of stone tablet
research or something, Mom will snap you with a rolled-up wet dish
towel.

In short, I think that the concepts and practices of rhythmic playing
and constructs in our music should be on MMM, or some such music
list. MetaTuning is more for the global, non-musical issues, and I'd
like to see music come back to one of it's homes.

You people are adult and bright and can keep focussed, so go to it.
For the couple of (possible) new people here, we're talking about:

/makemicromusic

Creating Microtonal Music, the group for ardant practitioners (and
wanna-be's) of the new microtonal world.

(BTW, remember that I don't have a spell-checker in use while
replying online at Yahoo! -- does anyone know of browser add-ins for
spell checking?)

Later,
Jon