Re: Whither (with an 'h') Paul Erlich?

>
> Subject: Re: Whither (with an 'h') Paul Erlich?

Aaron!
i think most every one spoke up as a support to Paul on Metatuning. I for one missed the origin
of this and Paul sent it to me and i told him what i thought. There is something in your post
though that is almost an accusation. Which Pauls post also had to me. I can understand Paul
reactions as defensive.
I have great respect for Paul but would not say that "cozy and familiar" are what come to
mind.
I would say this community lets everyone one down when it come right down to it. (except for a few
flame bearers. )

>
>
> >
> > >- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
> wrote:
> > > > Has anyone heard? The group is just not the same without his
> > > > presence...not as cozy and familiar.
> > >
> > > He's probably taking time away. As I said before, virtually no
> one spoke up
> > > on his behalf when he was unfairly treated, and I don't blame him
> if he
> > > feels that his "cozy and familiar" community might have let him
> down.
> >
> > I'm surprised that more people don't feel that there is an
> important
> > personality missing now...or do they?
> >
> > I certainly have found that things aren't as fun and interesting
> without his
> > commentary and input.
> >
> > I won't go there about the unfair treatment part. I, for one, made
> my feelings
> > known, even though I wanted to be fair to Peter and let him explain
> his views
> > directly. And I'm bothered that the whole thing seems to have all
> but been
> > brushed under the rug in the name of tuning theory.
> >
> > Best,
> > Aaron.
>
> Anytime Mr. Erlich wishes to issue an apology for his outrageous
> allegation I would be willing to consider accepting it. Until then it
> would seem that he is a victim of his own pride and prejudice.
>
> Peter
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

On Saturday 20 December 2003 11:35 am, kraig grady wrote:
> > Subject: Re: Whither (with an 'h') Paul Erlich?
>
> Aaron!
> i think most every one spoke up as a support to Paul on Metatuning. I for
> one missed the origin of this and Paul sent it to me and i told him what i
> thought. There is something in your post though that is almost an
> accusation. Which Pauls post also had to me. I can understand Paul
> reactions as defensive.
> I have great respect for Paul but would not say that "cozy and
> familiar" are what come to mind.
> I would say this community lets everyone one down when it come right down
> to it. (except for a few flame bearers. )

Facts:

1) Peter Wakefield Sault has posted views which are surely offensive to Jews
on that Adelaide Institute website.

2) I defended him early on, on the basis of "innocent until proven guilty",
but thought the charges worth investigating.

3) Someone posted that second quote, which clearly said he 'detested most
Jews.'

4) Paul Erlich is Jewish. It would be nice to know if he is considered to be
in the set of 'most Jews' by Mr. Sault.

5) Mr. Sault never responded to an email I sent him privately, on
December 10th, where I asked him to clarify *in private* the nature of his
views on Jews and Judaism, in light of the direct quote. Certainly I felt no
problem with criticism of Israel, of which I feel in agreement. However,
making a valued colleague on this list uncomfortable based on his
ethnic/religious heritage is another matter altogether.

6) In Peter's defense, the matter came up in response to his unpleasant
conduct upon his first appearance on this list--nothing anti-semetic was said
by him--however, now that unfortunately the 'cat is out of the bag', I feel
like an explanation of any bias he might have against the Paul Erlichs (jews,
that is) of the world is in order. No such explanation has been forthcoming,
although a definate improvement in Mr. Sault's conduct has been noticable.

7) Some appear not to be bothered by the lack of said explanation. This
bothers me, especially in light of the fact that a founding member of this
list has felt the issue important enough to take a break from the list.

8) Are we to accept that this community 'lets anyone down'? That may be the
way things are, but is that the way they should be? Where is the communal
vision?

9) Who will speak up for you when those in power decide you are the enemy (for
any political reason of your choice) if you do not speak up for the powerless
now? Do you think this is far-fetched? Then you have not studied any history
at all...

-Aaron.

"Aaron K. Johnson" wrote:

> 9) When the sentiments of the Peter Wakefield Saults of this world seem
> harmless to your person, because you are similar in ethnic/racial
> constitution to them, do you stand by?

I for one do and did not take them as harmless, and epressed that i disapprove
of them .
But such comments were orginally sent to me with the statement that i might
agree with them , which puts me on guard as being labeled an anti semite by the
person in question, so i am not going to go out and nail someone to the cross,
without more than this. If you want to lead an internet oxbow incident go ahead.

sure the branded cattle is right there
I find 90% OF New Yorkers obnoxious, does this mean that you can assume that
I will harm them because of it? you might be 'on guard' which is pretty much
how i stand in relationship to all this.
Peter has strong aggressive opinions which are out in the open for the most
part. At least i have a good idea of who i am talking too

> -Aaron.
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

>I find 90% OF New Yorkers obnoxious,

hey.. I resemble that remark. ;-)
you anti-appleite you

D

Dante Rosati wrote:

> >I find 90% OF New Yorkers obnoxious,
>
> hey.. I resemble that remark. ;-)
> you anti-appleite you
>
> D
>

I must have told you the Joke but i will go ahead anyways

In New York when they say

Fuck You!

they mean

hello, how are you

in Los Angeles when they say

hello, how are you

they mean

Fuck You!

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

> i think most every one spoke up as a support to Paul on
> Metatuning. I for one missed the origin
> of this and Paul sent it to me and i told him what i thought.

I also missed the origin of it. Can someone post text from
the tuning list that upset Paul or Jon?

-Carl

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> I also missed the origin of it. Can someone post text from
> the tuning list that upset Paul or Jon?

You can go up the thread a bit if you want a lead in, but the actual post that both Paul and I happened to respond to (virtually at the same time) was:

/tuning/topicId_49104.html#49351

Our responses were:
/tuning/topicId_49104.html#49353
/tuning/topicId_49104.html#49354

Peter's responses to those were

/tuning/topicId_49104.html#49374
/tuning/topicId_49104.html#49375

I don't have anything further to say on the above matters.

Cheers,
Jon

I belive i posted some answer to similar posts (on the australian aboriginals for one)
So why is this an anti semite issue. If it really was the worse case scenario, it doesn't seem to stop there.
These opinions i find quite unfortunate

Peter does bring up the destruction of world music and their tunings. it goes without saying that in many of our life times much has been destroyed.
The Beatles probably had more to do with 12 ET spreading ( especially George) throughout India more than anyone. Ecomonics is what has eroded these
tunings and also volume. the history of music has been that thew loudest instruments survive. amplification will win if it hasn't already.

If we are so concerned about all these world cultures why are they only mentioned in passing on the tuning list which seems to think the only thing
worth talking about is con/dis and tuning flexibilities of triads with the added seventh. If this is not cultural myopicness, i don't know what is. These
subjects i believe are the most barren and empty musical resources we could possiblt concentrate on. They are for the most part almost irrelevent even to
the music we have at hand, pop or otherwise. the attenion is elsewhere and even if they are used, they mean little in the contest of the actual music
except as a means to enable the use of pitch not to distract away from the other parameters/theater going on.

Jon Szanto wrote:

> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> > I also missed the origin of it. Can someone post text from
> > the tuning list that upset Paul or Jon?
>
> You can go up the thread a bit if you want a lead in, but the actual post that both Paul and I happened to respond to (virtually at the same time) was:
>
> /tuning/topicId_49104.html#49351
>
> Our responses were:
> /tuning/topicId_49104.html#49353
> /tuning/topicId_49104.html#49354
>
> Peter's responses to those were
>
> /tuning/topicId_49104.html#49374
> /tuning/topicId_49104.html#49375
>
> I don't have anything further to say on the above matters.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
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-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
wrote:
> On Saturday 20 December 2003 11:35 am, kraig grady wrote:
> > > Subject: Re: Whither (with an 'h') Paul Erlich?
> >
> > Aaron!
> > i think most every one spoke up as a support to Paul on
Metatuning. I for
> > one missed the origin of this and Paul sent it to me and i told
him what i
> > thought. There is something in your post though that is almost an
> > accusation. Which Pauls post also had to me. I can understand Paul
> > reactions as defensive.
> > I have great respect for Paul but would not say that "cozy and
> > familiar" are what come to mind.
> > I would say this community lets everyone one down when it come
right down
> > to it. (except for a few flame bearers. )
>
> Facts:
>
> 1) Peter Wakefield Sault has posted views which are surely
offensive to Jews
> on that Adelaide Institute website.
>
> 2) I defended him early on, on the basis of "innocent until proven
guilty",
> but thought the charges worth investigating.
>
> 3) Someone posted that second quote, which clearly said
he 'detested most
> Jews.'
>
> 4) Paul Erlich is Jewish. It would be nice to know if he is
considered to be
> in the set of 'most Jews' by Mr. Sault.
>
> 5) Mr. Sault never responded to an email I sent him privately, on
> December 10th, where I asked him to clarify *in private* the nature
of his
> views on Jews and Judaism, in light of the direct quote. Certainly
I felt no
> problem with criticism of Israel, of which I feel in agreement.
However,
> making a valued colleague on this list uncomfortable based on his
> ethnic/religious heritage is another matter altogether.
>
> 6) In Peter's defense, the matter came up in response to his
unpleasant
> conduct upon his first appearance on this list--nothing anti-
semetic was said
> by him--however, now that unfortunately the 'cat is out of the
bag', I feel
> like an explanation of any bias he might have against the Paul
Erlichs (jews,
> that is) of the world is in order. No such explanation has been
forthcoming,
> although a definate improvement in Mr. Sault's conduct has been
noticable.
>
> 7) Some appear not to be bothered by the lack of said explanation.
This
> bothers me, especially in light of the fact that a founding member
of this
> list has felt the issue important enough to take a break from the
list.
>
> 8) Are we to accept that this community 'lets anyone down'? That
may be the
> way things are, but is that the way they should be? Where is the
communal
> vision?
>
> 9) Who will speak up for you when those in power decide you are the
enemy (for
> any political reason of your choice) if you do not speak up for the
powerless
> now? Do you think this is far-fetched? Then you have not studied
any history
> at all...
>
> -Aaron.

So what are your feelings about Israeli terrorism, Aaron?

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> > I also missed the origin of it. Can someone post text from
> > the tuning list that upset Paul or Jon?
>
> You can go up the thread a bit if you want a lead in, but the
actual post that both Paul and I happened to respond to (virtually at
the same time) was:
>
> /tuning/topicId_49104.html#49351
>
> Our responses were:
> /tuning/topicId_49104.html#49353
> /tuning/topicId_49104.html#49354
>
> Peter's responses to those were
>
> /tuning/topicId_49104.html#49374
> /tuning/topicId_49104.html#49375
>
> I don't have anything further to say on the above matters.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

Well that's certainly a relief, especially as you have expressed such
distaste for the truth.

> > I also missed the origin of it. Can someone post text from
> > the tuning list that upset Paul or Jon?
>
> You can go up the thread a bit if you want a lead in, but the
>actual post that both Paul and I happened to respond to
>(virtually at the same time) was:
>
> /tuning/topicId_49104.html#49351
>
> Our responses were:
> /tuning/topicId_49104.html#49353
> /tuning/topicId_49104.html#49354
>
> Peter's responses to those were
>
> /tuning/topicId_49104.html#49374
> /tuning/topicId_49104.html#49375
>
> I don't have anything further to say on the above matters.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

I'd read all that, and while Peter's clearly uninformed about
traditional music he's got a right to his opinion. He does
act like a real dick, but he never says anything racially or
personally offensive, and the being a dick thing is certainly
grandfathered in List tradition. Paul's further actions (not
linked to above) struck me as hasty and over-reactive at best,
which is not like him. Meanwhile, Peter's "I'm the victim"
shtick continues to be as obnoxious and his threats of
litigation are comical.

-Carl

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> I'd read all that

I figured you had, and it had no effect on you, but you asked and I posted it.

> and while Peter's clearly uninformed about
> traditional music he's got a right to his opinion. He does
> act like a real dick, but he never says anything racially or
> personally offensive, and the being a dick thing is certainly
> grandfathered in List tradition. Paul's further actions (not
> linked to above) struck me as hasty and over-reactive at best,
> which is not like him. Meanwhile, Peter's "I'm the victim"
> shtick continues to be as obnoxious and his threats of
> litigation are comical.

Well, Carl, that really is some of the most eloquent fence-sitting I've seen in quite a while. What is striking is how you continue to frame events like this as how it strikes *you*, rather than any concern as to how it might have affected *others*. In cases like this, Stoics are pretty much indistinquishable from those unfortunate souls who have had their hearts and spines removed. If that seems personally offensive, consider that it comes from someone with the emotional maturity of a three-year-old.

I wish I could understand your stance on all this, but I don't.

Best,
Jon

> Well, Carl, that really is some of the most eloquent
> fence-sitting I've seen in quite a while.

I try my best.

> What is striking is how you continue to frame events
> like this as how it strikes *you*, rather than any
> concern as to how it might have affected *others*.

I'm trying Jon, but sometimes people have irrational
feelings. Are irrational feelings ok by you? They
aren't by me.

> I wish I could understand your stance on all this,
> but I don't.

Ditto.

-Carl

This is not a recommendation of Stoicism, nor am I a Stoic
with a captial S. But some of this does resonate with me,
and some of the themes I have ranted about on this list are
recognizeable here...

16. The good life can be achieved to perfection by any soul
capable of showing indifference to the things that are them-
selves indifferent. This can be done by giving careful
scrutiny first to the elements that compose them, and then to
the things themselves; bearing in mind that none of them is
responsible for the opinion that we form of it. They make no
approaches to us, they remain stationary; it is we who produce
judgements about them, and proceed to inscribe these, so to
speak, in our minds; despite the fact that it is perfectly in
our power either to inscribe nothing at all, or at least to
delete promptly anything that may have inscribed itself
unawares.

22. Socrates' name for the beliefs of the man in the street
was 'bogies' to scare children.

19. There are four aberrations of your soul's helmsman which
you must constantly guard against, and suppress whenever
detected. Say to them one by one, 'This is a thought which
is not necessary,' 'This is one which would undermine
fellowship,' 'This is not the voice of my true self,' and
fourthly, when you are tempted into self-reproach, 'This
would prove the divine element in me to have been discomfited
and forced to its knees by the ignoble and perishable flesh
with its gross conceptions.'

6. To refrain from imitation is the best revenge.

52. You are not compelled to form any opinion about this
matter before you, nor to disturb your peace of mind at all.
Things in themselves have no power to extort a verdict from
you.

56. Take it that you have died today, and your life's story
is ended; and henceforward regard what further time may be
given you as an uncovenanted surplus, and live it out in
harmony with nature.

57. Love nothing but that which comes to you woven in the
pattern of your destiny. For what could more aptly fit your
needs?

59. Dig within. There lies the well-spring of good: ever
dig, and it will ever flow.

-Carl

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> I'm trying Jon, but sometimes people have irrational
> feelings. Are irrational feelings ok by you? They
> aren't by me.

It isn't a matter for me as to whether they are "ok" (whatever that means), but that they might exist in people I care about. I imagine, then, that you are more than willing to abandon a friend if they have irrational feelings, without making an attempt to understand why those feelings have come about. All this in spite of their past behaviour indicating a perfectly (or imperfectly) rational human being.

As to your opening, I don't think you are trying. I don't think you even care.

Jon

> It isn't a matter for me as to whether they are "ok"
> (whatever that means), but that they might exist in
> people I care about. I imagine, then, that you are more
> than willing to abandon a friend if they have irrational
> feelings, without making an attempt to understand why
> those feelings have come about.

Heavens, no. I'd have to abandon even myself.

> As to your opening, I don't think you are trying. I
> don't think you even care.

Geez Jon, thanks. Sometimes I wonder if you consider
how your posts make people feel.

-Carl

I like this one alot, but find the rest rather emotionally suppressive.

Carl Lumma wrote:

>
> 6. To refrain from imitation is the best revenge.
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> Geez Jon, thanks. Sometimes I wonder if you consider
> how your posts make people feel.

It is never my intention to inflict personal damage with my messages, and if that has been the case then I do apologize publicly. I'd rather continue this in private with you (only if you wish), and we needn't bring up the subject on the list from this point.

Best,
Jon

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
>
> The Beatles probably had more to do with 12 ET spreading (
>especially George) throughout India more than anyone. Ecomonics is
>what has eroded these
> tunings and also volume. the history of music has been that thew
>loudest instruments survive. amplification will win if it hasn't
>already.
>
> If we are so concerned about all these world cultures why are
>they only mentioned in passing on the tuning list which seems to
>think the only thing
> worth talking about is con/dis and tuning flexibilities of triads
>with the added seventh.

I don't know who "they" is, but at least on tuning-math we're now
talking about all our tunings without reference to triads, seventh
chords, or any particular chord constructs in fact, and without
reference to any odd limits.

> If this is not cultural myopicness, i don't know what is.