at least brazil moves forward

A Racial Quake in Brazil
=========================
Where ethnicity is an elastic concept, and a barrier,
the introduction of admission quotas at a top
university shakes up notions of color.

By H�ctor Tobar
Times Staff Writer
Los Angeles Times
October 1, 2003

RIO DE JANEIRO - Amid the kaleidoscope of skin colors
that is modern Brazil, Diego Souza Barreto is like
millions of other young men: He has a cinnamon
complexion and features that borrow a little from
Africa, a little from Europe and maybe a little from
the Middle East.

A few months back, when he applied for college, Souza
Barreto had to "self-define" his race for the first
time. He chose the box marked pardo, which means brown
or mixed race. "For me, pardo is a meaningless term,"
he said, frowning. "It's a word used to describe an
envelope."

Diego was one of thousands of students to enter the
State University of Rio de Janeiro this year as part of
its new racial quota program. Never before had race
been used as a criterion for admission to a Brazilian
public university.

The quotas are an experiment in social engineering that
many blacks here hope will help spark a revolution in
race relations in Brazil. But at the State University
of Rio, the attempts to redress the country's historic
inequalities have plunged the campus into the complex
and often bewildering world of racial identity.

Race here is a notion beset by paradoxes. Blacks and
whites intermarry more commonly, perhaps, than anywhere
else. Yet there is a clear racial divide between rich
and poor.

"Brazilian law has always tried to deny that race
exists," said Paulo Fabio Salguiero, the university's
admissions director. "When slavery was abolished, all
the records of the slave holders were destroyed."

Brazilian slavery was a less rigid institution than its
American counterpart - a black slave, for instance,
could buy his freedom - but Brazil was the last country
in the Western Hemisphere to abolish slavery, in 1888.

Now, race is at the center of the admissions process,
even though it isn't always clear who is black and who
isn't.

In Brazil, the national myth has it that everyone, no
matter how fair-skinned, has at least one drop of
"black blood." But there is also an inflexible racial
pecking order: Walk into an upscale boutique or a
corporate boardroom in this and other Brazilian cities,
and black people all but disappear.

"The world is beginning to realize this other truth
about Brazil - that we are a country where racism has
produced one of the most effective systems of
domination in the world," said Ivanir dos Santos, one
of Brazil's most prominent black activists. "Without a
single law in place to support it, we have a hierarchy
of skin color where blacks appear to know their place."

Dos Santos and other activists here say quotas at Rio's
university and other reforms are long overdue. They see
the university's step as the first in a Brazilian
"reconstruction," like the 20th century revolution in
civil rights that finally began to chip away at the
legacy of slavery in the United States.

But, as in the United States, where racial quotas in
university admissions were declared illegal in the 1978
Regents of the University of California vs. Bakke
decision, the Rio plan has provoked an angry backlash.
About 300 students have filed lawsuits against the
quotas, and the state government has scaled back the
program for next year.

In the Rio quota system's first year, 40% of admission
slots were reserved for black and pardo students and
half for students who had completed all their schooling
in public institutions (one student could fill quotas
in both categories).

"Any quota system is wrong because it discriminates
against white students for the crimes of the past,"
said Jair Bolsonaro, a federal congressional deputy
representing Rio. "I'm Italian. My father and
grandfather were Italian. None of them had anything to
do with slavery."

To these arguments, black activists respond with
statistics illustrating glaring racial inequality.
Blacks make up 2% of the nation's university students,
even though nearly half of all Brazilians defined
themselves as black in the most recent census.

Go to nearly any public university in Brazil, Dos
Santos said, and you will be lucky to find even one
Brazilian- born black in its medical school. "The only
blacks are the exchange students from Africa," he said.

"We pay our taxes," he added, "so why shouldn't we
receive this public service we're paying for, and which
supposedly belongs to everyone?"

At the State University of Rio, putting the quota
system into practice has been a bureaucratic and
pedagogic nightmare that illustrates how deeply rooted
Brazil's ethnic hierarchies are.

None of the students admitted through a quota received
financial aid or counseling during the first semester.
Although tuition is free, buying a dozen new books each
term, in addition to other materials, is beyond the
reach of many working families. Some students were so
pressed for cash, they put on their old high-school
uniforms to take the bus to campus - in Rio, high
school students can ride city buses for free.

"The expenses are too much for me. Just the round-trip
fare from home to the university was a lot for my
family," said Flavio Andrade, a 21-year-old first-year
electrical engineering student. "I can't afford to buy
any books, so I Xerox everything."

Andrade failed two of his six courses the first
semester. "It's a lot harder than I thought it would
be," he said.

Already, just halfway into the 2003-04 school year,
about 40% of black and pardo students have dropped out,
said officials, who declined repeated requests to
provide dropout figures for previous years.

In August, state legislators moved to address the
financial problem by approving a monthly stipend of
about $65 for 1,200 needy quota students. More than
half of the 5,000 students who entered this year did so
through quotas.

Salguiero, the admissions director, sees the quotas as
a very crude answer to the issue of racial injustice.
Implementing them, he said, has been like performing
surgery with a hacksaw.

The State University of Rio is the region's most
exclusive institution of higher education, a Harvard
and Yale wrapped into one that attracts the brightest
and most ambitious students from Rio's best public and
private schools. Before this year, admission was
decided solely through notoriously demanding entrance
exams.

"The process was already demented and perverse before
we introduced quotas," said Salguiero, who before
dealing with Brazil's racial quotas specialized in a
subject only slightly less complex - nuclear physics.

"In the medical school, we have only 92 slots for 1,500
applicants," he said. What separates the 92nd student
from the 93rd and 94th is a set of arcane questions
that turns the exam into as much a game of chance as a
true test of qualifications, he said.

"Scoring 90% on that test is like scoring 110% on any
other," he said. "You're talking about a person who is
clearly gifted."

Wagner Alves Pimenta, a white student who scored 91% on
the medical school exam, didn't make the cut this year.

"I'm from a simple family. I went to private school
with a scholarship," Alves Pimenta told O Globo
magazine. He was thus disqualified from the public
school quota. And he declared himself white on his
application. "If I had signed up as pardo, I would have
been in the top of the class."

Because applicants defined their races themselves and
there are no official criteria to define what race is,
there were highly publicized cases of white students
claiming to be "pardo," including a Polish Brazilian
student who entered the medical school with a score
lower than Alves Pimenta's.

With leftist governments in power now in both of the
country's most populous states and leftist Luiz Inacio
Lula da Silva as president, momentum for quotas and
other measures to redress Brazil's racial imbalances is
growing.

"It's a blatant fact that blacks earn the lowest levels
of income, have less schooling and the worst jobs, and
make up more than their share of the unemployed," Lula,
as he is popularly known, said during his successful
campaign last year. "This isn't just a legacy of
slavery. Racism is being continually reproduced and
strengthened."

Earlier this year, Lula appointed Brazil's first black
Supreme Court justice. Lula has more blacks in his
Cabinet than any other president in Brazil's history
and has created a Cabinet-level Special Secretariat for
the Promotion of Racial Equality.

Black members of the ruling Workers Party have pushed
for a broad racial equality statute that would bring
quotas to everything from government hiring to
television commercials. But opponents won a victory in
the Rio state legislature last month.

Reports of the large number of highly qualified white
students that were turned away this year helped
persuade lawmakers to scale back quotas for the 2004-05
academic year.

The quotas will be reduced to 20% for black students,
20% for public school students and 5% for students with
physical disabilities and those of Indian descent. All
admitted through the quotas will have to demonstrate
financial need and would receive aid. There will be no
quota for students who declare themselves pardo.

That would leave students like Andrade and Souza
Barreto in a curious position. They have similarly
toned complexions. In the United States, both could
easily pass for black. In Portuguese, a black person is
"um negro."

But they have very different answers to the question of
whether they would declare themselves negro on an
admissions form.

"I consider myself black," Andrade said. "Pardo is not
a color. You are white or you are black. If a person is
pardo, he should consider himself black."

Souza Barreto, on the other hand, doesn't subscribe to
racial designations.

"I don't consider myself negro. We are all a big mix
here in Brazil," he said. "It's hard to determine
anyone's race. You just can't say what you are."
------------------------------------------------

Times staff writer Paula Gobbi contributed to this
report.

http://www.latimes.com/la-fg-uotas1oct01,1,3774183.story

Copyright 2003 Los Angeles Times

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-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

You call the institution of a racist admissions policy a "move forward"?? I would emphatically disagree. To turn aside a more qualified candidate because another has a favored skin color is 100% wrong, in my opinion. Also, it is a disservice to the student admitted, as the story makes clear: that person is overwhelmingly likely to flunk out before graduating.

Of course it's a shame that the racial makeup of universities in Brazil is so skewed. But the solution is to create more qualified candidates among minorities from the ground up (i.e. from early childhood on), not to warp the process of admissions to colleges.

No one deserves to be denied acceptance on account of race, and that is exactly what racist "affirmative action" programs do.

JdL

Ideally any one qualified should be admitted. To have schools worked up from the ground up would mean that all schools at the same level would have to get the same amount of money. Why should a school in a poor neighborhood get less just because the property around it is worth less? property valur has nothing to do with intellegence. Obviously if some of these
individuals can even make it through high school can be a feat it itself.
I would agree when you give all schools the same amount of money then "affirmative action" would not be necessary. But the opponents of such never suggest that.
We live in a very rascist country and one does not have to look far. In the very union i am in how many blacks do you think are in it. Zero. this pretty much how most industries that can involve real money are.
This country is on the way out

"John A. deLaubenfels" wrote:

> You call the institution of a racist admissions policy a "move forward"?? I would emphatically disagree. To turn aside a more qualified candidate because another has a favored skin color is 100% wrong, in my opinion. Also, it is a disservice to the student admitted, as the story makes clear: that person is overwhelmingly likely to flunk out before graduating.
>
> Of course it's a shame that the racial makeup of universities in Brazil is so skewed. But the solution is to create more qualified candidates among minorities from the ground up (i.e. from early childhood on), not to warp the process of admissions to colleges.
>
> No one deserves to be denied acceptance on account of race, and that is exactly what racist "affirmative action" programs do.
>
> JdL
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

I do agree that it is unjust to tax person A (poor, little education) in order to fund a university which is open to person B (wealthy, lots of education) but not person A. That knife cuts both ways, however: it is in general immoral to steal from one person for the benefit of another, whether the stealing is done by a freelance thug or a government thug, and in the latter case, whether or not a majority of voters has approved the theft.

Perhaps the worst effect of race-based admissions is the tarring of every minority as "stupid". Those who could have made it in without extra points for the color of their skin are branded as having taken the place of a white person, whether or not this is in fact true. How unfair!

The U.S. may well be on the way out, as you say, but IMHO it is because of armchair warriors like Bush & Co., who do everything they can, it would seem, to make Americans fiercely hated around the world. That and the complete betrayal of the basic right to lead a free life, spending one's own earnings rather than turning them over to parasites in the government.

JdL

"John A. deLaubenfels" wrote:

> I do agree that it is unjust to tax person A (poor, little education) in order to fund a university which is open to person B (wealthy, lots of education) but not person A. That knife cuts both ways, however: it is in general immoral to steal from one person for the benefit of another, whether the stealing is done by a freelance thug or a government thug, and in the latter case, whether or not a majority of voters has approved the theft.
>
> Perhaps the worst effect of race-based admissions is the tarring of every minority as "stupid". Those who could have made it in without extra points for the color of their skin are branded as having taken the place of a white person, whether or not this is in fact true. How unfair!

then the solution should be to give every lower education school the same amount of funding as every other, based on number of students. even then, weathier areas would be able to 'subsidize' there kids by there own financial means.

>
>
> The U.S. may well be on the way out, as you say, but IMHO it is because of armchair warriors like Bush & Co., who do everything they can, it would seem, to make Americans fiercely hated around the world. That and the complete betrayal of the basic right to lead a free life, spending one's own earnings rather than turning them over to parasites in the government.

The government has become the police dept for the multinationals nothing more. It has no more goal but to expand its control over the masses wherever they can , by any means necessary. The only real solution is a complete constitutional overhall. Proportional representation. Abandonment of the electorial college. states rights being an arbitrary division if not meaningless. Do we really need a senate? Although as much as i abhor slavery , i
do think the south should have been allowed to form its own country. They voted for it and wanted it. otherwise just what does democracy mean? In the long run, this one would be if far better shape. Possibly this might have delayed a war to a latewr date, fighting over the west

>
>
> JdL
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "John A. deLaubenfels" <jdl@a...>
wrote:
> But the solution is to create more qualified candidates among
>minorities from the ground up (i.e. from early childhood on), not to
>warp the process of admissions to colleges.

out of curiosity, how do you propose to do this, given your belief in
free markets?

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:

> The government has become the police dept for the multinationals
>nothing more.

and politics their entertainment industry! (to paraphrazappa)

yes, the show to give the impression that real choices are being made

Paul Erlich wrote:

>
> and politics their entertainment industry! (to paraphrazappa)
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

[I wrote:]
>>But the solution is to create more qualified candidates among
>>minorities from the ground up (i.e. from early childhood on), not to
>>warp the process of admissions to colleges.

[Paul E:]
>out of curiosity, how do you propose to do this, given your belief in free markets?

"I" would not propose to do anything other than to get the government out of the education
business, as they are proven to be completely and totally inept (but great at spending
large amounts of money), and to charge each parent with seeing to the education of
his/her children. This was the system for the U.S. in the first half of the 19th century,
and from what I have read, the literacy rate was higher then than it is today under
government education, a truly amazing statistic given how relatively poor people were then
compared to now.

JdL

yes lets turn it into a business where profits will become the bottom line, or like the
electrical or phon business. Every act of deregulation has been a complete failare if not a
rape of the people.

"John A. deLaubenfels" wrote:

>
> "I" would not propose to do anything other than to get the government out of the education
> business, as they are proven to be completely and totally inept (but great at spending
> large amounts of money), and to charge each parent with seeing to the education of
> his/her children. This was the system for the U.S. in the first half of the 19th century,
> and from what I have read, the literacy rate was higher then than it is today under
> government education, a truly amazing statistic given how relatively poor people were then
> compared to now.
>
> JdL
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "John A. deLaubenfels" <jdl@a...>
wrote:
> [I wrote:]
> >>But the solution is to create more qualified candidates among
> >>minorities from the ground up (i.e. from early childhood on), not
to
> >>warp the process of admissions to colleges.
>
> [Paul E:]
> >out of curiosity, how do you propose to do this, given your belief
in free markets?
>
> "I" would not propose to do anything other than to get the
government out of the education
> business, as they are proven to be completely and totally inept
(but great at spending
> large amounts of money), and to charge each parent with seeing to
the education of
> his/her children. This was the system for the U.S. in the first
half of the 19th century,
> and from what I have read, the literacy rate was higher then than
it is today under
> government education, a truly amazing statistic given how
relatively poor people were then
> compared to now.
>
> JdL

how will this create more qualified candidates among minorities from
the ground up?

>and from what I have read, the literacy rate was higher then
>than it is today under government education, a truly amazing
>statistic given how relatively poor people were then
>compared to now.

Of course you aren't controlling for anything here. There
are many factors, only one of which is "government education".
Including 'we only tallied the rich white boys in 1825'.

-Carl

>yes lets turn it into a business where profits will become
>the bottom line, or like the electrical or phon business.
>Every act of deregulation has been a complete failare if not
>a rape of the people.

Electrical deregulation in Pennsylvania is universally
considered a huge success. The airline deregulation of the
'70's was as well.

And I don't think "profits" is the right term. I hear a lot
about "profits" in the bleeding heart circuit, but I don't ever
get the impression that it's coming from someone who has the
foggiest idea what a profit is, besides an emotionally-charged
word that gets them and their friends fired up. Around the
Bay Area, it was even suggested that Dick Cheny wanted the war
on Iraq because he stood to gain personal wealth from the
oil -- a laughable hypothesis.

What you may mean is "growth". Contemporary businesses often
suffer by trying to grow too fast, including by going out of
business (.coms), or worse, by running up huge negetive
externalities they can't cover (Kaiser Aluminum's liquidation
of Pacific Lumber). This is especially true among publically-
held companies. The public's ethic of public ownership is
miserable in the US. People tend to think of shares as money
rags or pension tickets and forget (or never bother to learn)
about the companies attached to them.

Anywho, I believe it's been shown very thoroughly that a
strictly-regulated *environment* is necessary for markets to
work effectively. However, I am not aware of a single case
where removing direct controls (such as price controls) has
not resulted in an improvement in the affected market. Part
of the reason this realization took so long is that price
controls have a counter-intuitive effect. If I say, "no one
shall charge more than $1000 for a studio apt. in Berkeley",
this has the effect, over just a few years in most cases, of
*raising* the mean price of studio apartments in Berkeley.

-Carl

>> "I" would not propose to do anything other than to get the
>> government out of the education business, as they are proven
//
> how will this create more qualified candidates among
> minorities from the ground up?

I'm interested to hear John's answer, but as far as I can see
the free market doesn't give us any means to single out
minorities. You can debate the merits of this until the cows
come home.

I do believe that deregulating schools would probably improve
them in the US (though things are so bad I think any change
would probably improve them!). Don't know about Brazil.

I'm a believer in taxes to support education. If parents
can't afford it, the state should step in. We all live
together on this rock, and we all bare the consequences of
education (or the lack thereof). Whether the state should
itself opperate schools is another matter. I think
standardized testing has done far more harm than state
ownership in the abstract. I think we need competition among
curricula far more than competition among fascilities. And
teacher's unions are a far greater harm than state ownership
in the abstract. Unions are a disasterous blight upon the
Earth, says I, but I can't figure think of a way to prevent
them -- you can't very well forbid people from forming clubs.
Though I reckon most large unions are probably crooked enough
to bust with criminal law...

-Carl

> Unions are a disasterous blight upon the
> Earth, says I, but I can't figure think of a way to prevent
> them -- you can't very well forbid people from forming clubs.

I wonder if anybody has tried anti-trust laws?

-Carl

> Electrical deregulation in Pennsylvania is universally
> considered a huge success. The airline deregulation of the
> '70's was as well.
blah blah blah

This article sings a somewhat different tune, tying the
risk of blackouts to deregulation...

http://www.tipmagazine.com/tip/INPHFA/vol-9/iss-5/p8.html

-Carl

As a union member i would like to see ANYONE on this list work in the
non union conditions of the very job that i have. You would get not last 4
hours. yes the coal industry was so much better when they had outright
slaves to do the work. are you people crazy? look what it was like before
them
Union are formed in order to protect the workers and the people who own
businesses could care less about them. The problem wtgh the unions hewre is
most of them are too weak. if france you mess with the workers, the whole
country shuts down and that is exactly how it should be. People are more
important than companies.

Carl Lumma wrote:

> > Unions are a disasterous blight upon the
> > Earth, says I, but I can't figure think of a way to prevent
> > them -- you can't very well forbid people from forming clubs.
>
> I wonder if anybody has tried anti-trust laws?
>
> -Carl
>
>
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-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

Bush's secret energy task force plan all of this ,which is why they refuse
to hand over the papers of the meetings.
Airlines were not deregulated in the same way, they were never owned by the
government, as they are in europe.
I am still waiting for EC airlines. public transportation is way better ,
they have health care, just what do we have, billion spents so that are
youngs people can be shot at to make the people in power rich, or others can
do the killing for us. Bush and the forces he represents will do anything to
stay in power include starting another war. it is getting to the point where
we are becoming a liability to our former allies and i can see them looking
the other way when the next consolidation of force is plan against us. Do
they really have much choice? why would they want us to continue in this
fashion? Do we illicit trust?

Carl Lumma wrote:

> > Electrical deregulation in Pennsylvania is universally
> > considered a huge success. The airline deregulation of the
> > '70's was as well.
> blah blah blah
>
> This article sings a somewhat different tune, tying the
> risk of blackouts to deregulation...
>
> http://www.tipmagazine.com/tip/INPHFA/vol-9/iss-5/p8.html
>
> -Carl
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

> As a union member i would like to see ANYONE on this
> list work in the non union conditions of the very job that
> i have.

I've got nothing against workers getting together to
improve working conditions. But if they need to resort
to violence, picket lines, etc., to keep out non-union
workers, they're not being competitive.

> are you people crazy?

So far it's just me that's crazy -- I'm the only one
to post on the union thing.

-Carl

> Bush's secret energy task force plan all of this,

All of what, exactly?

> Airlines were not deregulated in the same way, they
> were never owned by the government, as they are in europe.

The routes that airlines were allowed to fly, which
carriers were allowed to fly them, and how much they
could charge were controlled by a government
beurocracy.

In Europe the airlines are no better. I've flown on
all the major European airlines. British Air destroyed
our luggage in a bizzare manner. Swiss Air went
bankrupt three times in 2 years, or some such.

> I am still waiting for EC airlines. public transportation
> is way better,

Europe has a much higher population density, making
public transportation *much* more cost effective. Same
with Japan.

> they have health care,

Yeah; crappy health care. Most of the innovations in
health care are developed here, and given away to
Europe and the rest of the World at a loss.

>Bush and the forces he represents will do anything to
>stay in power include starting another war.

Of this I have little doubt.

-Carl

most picket lines are against businesses no other preople wanting to work.
who really want to go work for less than what others are making doing the
same task

being competitive?

well the high CEO get paid in this country is way off the map in comparison
to any others in the world. That's what makes thing non competitive. compare
Disney to Sony ( about a 93 times differance) and there salary goes up even
when the company is doing badly. or when they lie to the stock holders
the mere bonuses far exceed any total rate increase of the entire employee
of the companies which on the average is about 3 percent, if anything. And
what dso they do with their money? invest it over seas.
it seems to me they got you all fooled as to who is driving up the cost of
things.
When i first started at the bottom level i could buy more and live better
than i can now being on the absolute top even though it look like i make 7
times more than then. it cost me 10 times more to live.

Carl Lumma wrote:

> > As a union member i would like to see ANYONE on this
> > list work in the non union conditions of the very job that
> > i have.
>
> I've got nothing against workers getting together to
> improve working conditions. But if they need to resort
> to violence, picket lines, etc., to keep out non-union
> workers, they're not being competitive.
>
> > are you people crazy?
>
> So far it's just me that's crazy -- I'm the only one
> to post on the union thing.
>
> -Carl
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

Carl Lumma wrote:

>
>
> > they have health care,
>
> Yeah; crappy health care. Most of the innovations in
> health care are developed here, and given away to
> Europe and the rest of the World at a loss.

If ever you look into grants you will find that 80 per cent of them are for
medical research. There are so many stories of health care treatment being
held back for no other reason that it cost too much. What good is all this
research if you can't get it when you need it. Of cvcourse the well to do
have no problems along these lines.

>
>
> >Bush and the forces he represents will do anything to
> >stay in power include starting another war.
>
> Of this I have little doubt.
>
> -Carl
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "John A. deLaubenfels" <jdl@a...>
wrote:

> "I" would not propose to do anything other than to
> get the government out of the education business, as
> they are proven to be completely and totally inept
> (but great at spending large amounts of money), and
> to charge each parent with seeing to the education of
> his/her children.

most readers here have probably heard the old saying

"if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

i saw a great bumper-sticker on a car the other day:

"US government philosophy:
if it ain't broke, fix it until it is".

:)

-monz

> most picket lines are against businesses no other preople
> wanting to work.

When I lived in Manhattan (49th & 9th), there was a huge
construction project at the end of my block that was being
performed by non-union labor, against a strike. They had
to build a wall and have constant police patrol to protect
the site. The union guys stood at the corner with a 15'
inflatable rat marked 'scab', pulling on the wire that moved
its little arms and blowing a goddamned air horn all day.

> who really want to go work for less than
> what others are making doing the same task
>
> being competitive?

If people in Mexico are willing to build Volkswagens for a
fraction of what Americans are, they are winning the
competition for the chance to build VWs for a living.

> And what dso they do with their money? invest it over seas.

That's good. If they didn't, they'd be pegged as uncaring
about the hardships industrialism has laid upon the 3rd world.

> it seems to me they got you all fooled as to who is driving
> up the cost of things.

What was driving up the cost of things in the 70's, when
inflation was 20% and the economy was in the shitter?

> When i first started at the bottom level i could buy more
> and live better than i can now being on the absolute top
> even though it look like i make 7 times more than then. it
> cost me 10 times more to live.

Probably mostly due to your location. You live in a popular
area. Americans still enjoy the highest standard of living
outside of Scandanavia, which in the case of Norway is
provided largely by oil, and elsewhere probably due to the
genetic homogenity of the population.

Although I find it incredible that only a generation or two
ago, the average American family was single-income. Now, most
need two incomes to survive. That's a radical change in how
industrious we are. Part of it is likely due to the unnatural
postwar stregth of the dollar wearing off, and part simply to
competition from families who are willing to be two-income.

-Carl

> What good is all this research if you can't get it when
> you need it. Of cvcourse the well to do have no problems
> along these lines.

You do get it. If it weren't for the current system, we'd
all still be putting warm rocks on our thighs to treat
cancer. Though of course some folks still prefer this to
anything that actually might treat the cancer, though that's
partly the fault of "Western" medicine for ignoring the
importance of bedside manner.

Yep, bleeding edge healthcare is expensive. There's no way
around it. People have to devote their lives to invent it
and practice it. In some cases you need an expensive
aparatus like an MRI. You want *magic*, check out one of
those babies sometime.

-Carl

[I wrote:]
>>"I" would not propose to do anything other than to get the government out of the education
>>business, as they are proven to be completely and totally inept (but great at spending
>>large amounts of money), and to charge each parent with seeing to the education of
>>his/her children. This was the system for the U.S. in the first half of the 19th century,
>>and from what I have read, the literacy rate was higher then than it is today under
>>government education, a truly amazing statistic given how relatively poor people were then
>>compared to now.

[Kraig wrote:]
>yes lets turn it into a business where profits will become the bottom line, or like the
>electrical or phon business. Every act of deregulation has been a complete failare if not a
>rape of the people.

Nonsense. It would be up to each child's parents to home-school, to form a cooperative
with other families nearby, to enroll their child in a small, locally-run school, or to
pick a school run by a large corporation. As for your love of "regulation", who regulates
the regulators? In case you haven't noticed, regulatory bodies tend to become hotbeds of
corruption and insider-dealing, stifling genuine competition for the benefit of established
players. When it comes to schooling, I would assert that each parent knows the needs of
his/her own children far better than any collection of "experts."

[Paul E wrote:]
>how will this create more qualified candidates among minorities from the ground up?

It will mean better educated children from every socio-economic and racial group. That's
the real point, yes?

[Carl L wrote:]
>Of course you aren't controlling for anything here. There
>are many factors, only one of which is "government education".
>Including 'we only tallied the rich white boys in 1825'.

Not true. Slaves, and therefore blacks, weren't included, but poor whites were.
And keep in mind that even people who were considered "rich" in those days were in
may ways poorer than poor people are today. At the same time, it is of course
true that there are many factors which have changed betweeen then and now, and so
caution is called for in making the comparison.

[Carl again:]
>I'm a believer in taxes to support education. If parents
>can't afford it, the state should step in. We all live
>together on this rock, and we all bare (sic) the consequences of
>education (or the lack thereof).

"The state should step in." That really means, the taxpayers should have some more
money liberated from their wallets because someone else decided to have children and
then whine that raising them is too much of a burden. Why stop with schools? Why
not have taxpayer-provided food, clothing, housing, entertainment, and on and on?
Some people do, of course, advocate such a society. They're called "socialists."
I don't happen to be of that persuasion.

Socialism in practice is a moral, economic, and results failure, and public schools
are a perfect illustration of all three aspects. They spend more and do less than
private schools. They, along with other taxpayer-funded goodies, encourage
profligate behavior at others' expense.

[Kraig:]
>Are you people crazy?

In your eyes, clearly I am. Somehow I must accept that sad burden. ;->

JdL

"John A. deLaubenfels" wrote:

>
>
> [Kraig wrote:]
> >yes lets turn it into a business where profits will become the bottom line, or like the
> >electrical or phon business. Every act of deregulation has been a complete failare if not a
> >rape of the people.
>
> Nonsense. It would be up to each child's parents to home-school, to form a cooperative
> with other families nearby, to enroll their child in a small, locally-run school, or to
> pick a school run by a large corporation.

and why would a corporation have any interest in providing education. there interest as all
companies are is to make money
whhich in the end will charge the people more. How is you phone bill and service. is it
better.?

> As for your love of "regulation", who regulates
> the regulators? In case you haven't noticed, regulatory bodies tend to become hotbeds of
> corruption and insider-dealing, stifling genuine competition for the benefit of established
> players.

No bueacracy has caused the problem of correption of say an enron. Remember the banks and loan
scandal?
these were on a level where it treatened the entire collapse of the system which was only kept
afloat by your tax money. Buracracies are way cheaper in comparison.

> When it comes to schooling, I would assert that each parent knows the needs of
> his/her own children far better than any collection of "experts."

I don't this

>
>
>
>
> Socialism in practice is a moral, economic, and results failure, and public schools
> are a perfect illustration of all three aspects. They spend more and do less than
> private schools. They, along with other taxpayer-funded goodies, encourage
> profligate behavior at others' expense.

Without a doubt the education system throughtout europe is of a much higher standard than here.
I can't tell you how many high end computer jobs are done by 'imported' workers from abroad
cause companies know they are better skilled for the jobs.

>
>
> [Kraig:]
> >Are you people crazy?
>
> In your eyes, clearly I am. Somehow I must accept that sad burden. ;->

well this was in relation to unions which i am sure you think this country was better off
without them.

>
>
> JdL
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

[Kraig G wrote:]
>well this was in relation to unions which i am sure you think this country was
>better off without them.

I think this country is better off when workers are free to form unions
whenever they see fit. The other side of that freedom is that employers
may draw from the pool of workers outside the union if they so choose (and
can find anybody!). I condemn violence on either side: employers hiring
thugs to beat up peaceful striking workers, or unions forcing people to join
whether they want to or not (sometimes by force of law).

My own experience has been that a desired skill set, not membership in any
organization (or even educational credentials, since I have little to no
formal courses in my current profession), is the ticket to well-paying work.

JdL

> and why would a corporation have any interest in providing
> education.

Maybe because the people who work there have made education
the love of their lives?

> there interest as all companies are is to make money

People become successful in things because they love and
believe in what they do. There are very few successful
in business who are driven only by money. Why else would
they keep working after they get super-rich? Think Bill
Gates is in it for the money? He probably wouldn't still
be working 10-hour days.

> which in the end will charge the people more.

Not true. Any good private company reinvests close to 100%
of profits into the business. And these days, most public
companies have stopped paying much in dividends.

> How is you phone bill and service. is it
> better.?

Way better since SBC bought out Pacific Bell. My long
distance charges are about 1/4 of what they were, the billing
and customer service is better, and SBC has the balls to
stand up to the RIAA (even though I don't do file trading or
use SBC as my ISP).

>No bueacracy has caused the problem of correption of say an
>enron.

You're unfamiliar with the California DMV?

> I can't tell you how many high end computer jobs are done
> by 'imported' workers from abroad cause companies know they
> are better skilled for the jobs.

We have a virtual monopoly on CS in the states. Most of the
"imported" workers I know are imported by schools, not
businesses. Of course any scientific discipline is properly
international...

-Carl

Carl Lumma wrote:

> > and why would a corporation have any interest in providing
> > education.
>
> Maybe because the people who work there have made education
> the love of their lives?

The auto motive business love cars they will not make them fuel efficient,
nor did they make them safe volantarily,
nor has any business cut pollution without direct pressure. .

>
>
> > there interest as all companies are is to make money
>
> People become successful in things because they love and
> believe in what they do. There are very few successful
> in business who are driven only by money.

planned obsolesents proves that technologoly is purposefully withheld in
oreder to release it in small packages, as well as incompatability between
systems is in no way out of love of providing the people with a worthwhile
lasting product. hoew nmany sony products have you had to fix. People become
successful because they have a market cornered or make worthy competition
impossible. look at autos and how many great designs have they bought up for
no other reason but to keep them off the market.

> Why else would
> they keep working after they get super-rich?

twisted passions and destructive desires

> Think Bill
> Gates is in it for the money?

damn right

> He probably wouldn't still
> be working 10-hour days.

he has an endless appitite that seems not to be filled. If he is so good
why did they have to go after him with anti trust suits. because he loved
everyone?

>
>
> > which in the end will charge the people more.
>
> Not true. Any good private company reinvests close to 100%
> of profits into the business.

the bussiness overseas you mean. this is only on paper. look at the CEO
salaries if you call that reinvestment

> And these days, most public
> companies have stopped paying much in dividends.
>
> > How is you phone bill and service. is it
> > better.?
>
> Way better since SBC bought out Pacific Bell. My long
> distance charges are about 1/4 of what they were, the billing
> and customer service is better, and SBC has the balls to
> stand up to the RIAA (even though I don't do file trading or
> use SBC as my ISP).

mine is way worse. Me and my neighbors all have radio signals on our lines
which they seem to have no interest in getting rid of

>
>
> >No bueacracy has caused the problem of correption of say an
> >enron.
>
> You're unfamiliar with the California DMV?
> Do they rob thousands of their pensions?
> -Carl
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
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-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

> > Maybe because the people who work there have made education
> > the love of their lives?
>
> The auto motive business love cars they will not make them
> fuel efficient,

Fuel efficiency per horsepower has improved dramatically in the
last 50 years. The car-buying public doesn't want better eff.
and less power. Though around here the Prius has been selling
very well. I'm seriously thinking about getting a Prius II.

> nor has any business cut pollution without direct pressure.

They should be forced to buy pollution rights.

> > People become successful in things because they love and
> > believe in what they do. There are very few successful
> > in business who are driven only by money.
>
> planned obsolesents proves that technologoly is purposefully
> withheld in oreder to release it in small packages,

The speed of technology advance these days is a bit wierd, no
doubt. There probably is some genuine planned obsolescence
out there -- often cars or clothing models are tweaked on an
annual basis for no real reason -- but I dunno if its as bad
as you fear. I don't think I own anything that could have been
delivered to me before it was for the same price.

> how nmany sony products have you had to fix.

I don't think that was done intentionally. I think Sony tries
to make the best products they can.

> look at autos and how many great designs have they bought up
> for no other reason but to keep them off the market.

I'm not aware of this. I am aware of an urban legend about it,
which even made it into a Steven Segal movie.

> > Why else would
> > they keep working after they get super-rich?
>
> twisted passions and destructive desires

Ever meet anybody with "twisted passions and destructive
desires"?

> > Think Bill Gates is in it for the money?
>
> damn right

You seemingly have a twisted view of humanity.

> > He probably wouldn't still
> > be working 10-hour days.
>
> he has an endless appitite that seems not to be filled.

He's working towards a goal, which you can read all about in
his testimony in the big anti-trust suit. He believes in
proprietary standards, which I think is wrong, but...

> because he loved everyone?

He is the creator of one of the most lauded philantropy
programs in history, spending billions of his own money on
vaccinations and basic health care around the world.

> > Not true. Any good private company reinvests close to
> > 100% of profits into the business.
>
> the bussiness overseas you mean. this is only on paper.
> look at the CEO salaries if you call that reinvestment

Paying and hiring is usually considered reinvestment. It's
easy to say CEOs get paid too much (I think so), but it
isn't easy to run companies without them. There are other
kinds of reinvestment, such as building facilities.

-Carl

I suppose we all percieve something wrong with the
world. Is it always twisted? Maybe, maybe not.

-Carl

it seems healthier to recognize that this is NOT heaven (except for maybe
cats)
and it is better on the surace than underneath. as much as there was so much
tension about the mideast, i do believe so good did come out of it. more so
than just reading the news perspective.

Carl Lumma wrote:

> I suppose we all percieve something wrong with the
> world. Is it always twisted? Maybe, maybe not.
>
> -Carl
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> > As a union member i would like to see ANYONE on this
> > list work in the non union conditions of the very job that
> > i have.
>
> I've got nothing against workers getting together to
> improve working conditions. But if they need to resort
> to violence, picket lines, etc., to keep out non-union
> workers, they're not being competitive.
>
> > are you people crazy?
>
> So far it's just me that's crazy -- I'm the only one
> to post on the union thing.
>
> -Carl

i suggest _the real frank zappa book_. his views on unions are very
illuminating, if only one man's opinion. basically he got screwed out
of hundreds of thousands of dollars, maybe more, over a career of
repeatedly succumbing to the union's extortionist tactics. it ties a
knot in one's stomach just to read it.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:

> Yep, bleeding edge healthcare is expensive. There's no way
> around it. People have to devote their lives to invent it
> and practice it. In some cases you need an expensive
> aparatus like an MRI. You want *magic*, check out one of
> those babies sometime.
>
> -Carl

i had an internship one summer to help develop a method of using
permanent magnets for MRI to make it feasible to use in poor, low-
power areas (say africa). unfortunately, i wasted that whole summer
thinking about tuning and discovering things like consistency, the
relative error rule, and the decatonic scales in 22-equal . . . :)

I am sure if you talked to people in Zappa's band how much money thety were
screwed out of
I am sure it would surpass what he ever lost.
you know Jimmy Karl Black paints houses in Phoenix with (crazyworld of )
Arthur Brown

Paul Erlich wrote:

>
>
> i suggest _the real frank zappa book_. his views on unions are very
> illuminating, if only one man's opinion. basically he got screwed out
> of hundreds of thousands of dollars, maybe more, over a career of
> repeatedly succumbing to the union's extortionist tactics. it ties a
> knot in one's stomach just to read it.
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

>i had an internship one summer to help develop a method of using
>permanent magnets for MRI to make it feasible to use in poor, low-
>power areas (say africa). unfortunately, i wasted that whole summer
>thinking about tuning and discovering things like consistency, the
>relative error rule, and the decatonic scales in 22-equal . . . :)

What's the relative error rule? (!)

-Carl

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> >i had an internship one summer to help develop a method of using
> >permanent magnets for MRI to make it feasible to use in poor, low-
> >power areas (say africa). unfortunately, i wasted that whole
summer
> >thinking about tuning and discovering things like consistency, the
> >relative error rule, and the decatonic scales in 22-equal . . . :)
>
> What's the relative error rule? (!)
>
> -Carl

equal temperaments -- relative error is the error of a consonant
interval as a fraction of step size.

for three 'good' ETs A, B, C, such that A+B=C, a given consonant
interval normally has relative errors in C that is the sum of its
relative errors in A and B.

gene came up with an analogous rule concerning the *mapping* or
something . . .

>equal temperaments -- relative error is the error of a consonant
>interval as a fraction of step size.
>
>for three 'good' ETs A, B, C, such that A+B=C, a given consonant
>interval normally has relative errors in C that is the sum of
>its relative errors in A and B.

Wow, either I just missed it, it didn't come up during my tenure
on the list, or I'm going senile...

Something of the sort seems obvious given the recurrence relations
that abound... Wilson's Zig-Zag function, etc. But whether it
would apply to abs or relative error wouldn't have (and doesn't)
come to me.

-Carl

Erv got his ideas along these lines mainly from Yasser and later Kornerup

Carl Lumma wrote:

>
>
> Something of the sort seems obvious given the recurrence relations
> that abound... Wilson's Zig-Zag function, etc. But whether it
> would apply to abs or relative error wouldn't have (and doesn't)
> come to me.
>
> -Carl
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST