Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup metatuning Slavery, et al.

Perhaps it is time to read the Koran and find out what is really believed, or not.

Re Slavery: I have been flaberghasted that there is slavery in Arabic countries and no one has said much about it.

Koran 33:52
"It shall be unlawful for you to take more wives or to change your present wives for other women, though their beauty please you, except where slave-girls are concerned."

It seems slavery is acceptable to the Koran.

Johnny

🔗Paul Erlich <PERLICH@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> Perhaps it is time to read the Koran and find out what is really
believed, or not.
>
> Re Slavery: I have been flaberghasted that there is slavery in
Arabic countries and no one has said much about it.
>
> Koran 33:52
> "It shall be unlawful for you to take more wives or to change your
present wives for other women, though their beauty please you, except
where slave-girls are concerned."
>
> It seems slavery is acceptable to the Koran.
>
> Johnny

What about the Old Testament?

🔗John Starrett <jstarret@...>

Yes, and in the Bible too, certainly in the Old Testament.

John Starrett

🔗Afmmjr@...

🔗John Starrett <jstarret@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> Could someone, kindly, tell me the context for slavery in the Old
Testament. Thank you. Johnny

Just off the top of my search engine,
http://www.wordwiz72.com/bible.html has a couple references. If you
use Netscape you can use Edit, Find in Page to find the word slavery.
There are numerous other sources, I am sure.

John Starrett

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., "John Starrett" <jstarret@c...> wrote:
> --- In metatuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> > Could someone, kindly, tell me the context for slavery in the Old
> Testament. Thank you. Johnny
>
> Just off the top of my search engine,
> http://www.wordwiz72.com/bible.html has a couple references.

Such as:

The Bible is pro-slavery. There are many examples in the Old
Testament where slavery was approved by God; it was even COMMANDED
that captives in war be taken as slaves (Num 31; Joshua 9:23).
Leviticus 25:44-46 outlines the do's and dont's of permissible
slavery. Verse 46 specifically permits slavery, as long as fellow
Hebrews are not the slaves. In the kinder, gentler New Testament,
Paul wrote that slaves should be obedient to their masters (Eph 6:5-7
& Titus 2:9-10). In IPeter 2:18, it is even specified to be
submissive both to masters who are overbearing as well as gentle! Why
didn't they speak out against this moral outrage? Were they afraid of
the law? They could at least have remained neutral on the subject.

🔗X. J. Scott <xjscott@...>

[Johnny:]
> Re Slavery: I have been flaberghasted that there is slavery
> in Arabic countries and no one has said much about it.

I'll say something about it.

My sister and her husband were held against their will
in Saudi Arabia as slaves.

They had to escape.

It's real. They have slaves there.

The Saudis also take advantage of Sudanese
Muslims who go to Mecca for their pilgrimage.
The Saudis keep the strong men and pleasing
women as slaves. The life of a Sudanese slave
in Saudi Arabia is not good.

- Jeff

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> >> It seems slavery is acceptable to the Koran.
> >>
> >> Johnny
> >
> > Yes, and in the Bible too, certainly in the Old Testament.
> >
> > John Starrett
>
> Are you suggesting there are many Jews that
> keep slaves nowadays?

It would as be ridiculous to think John Starrett is suggesting that,
as to think that John Chalmers is suggesting we should create clones
of Adolf Hitler. What are you snorting, Jeff?

🔗X. J. Scott <xjscott@...>

-- >> >> It seems slavery is acceptable to the Koran.
>> >>
>> >> Johnny
>> >
>> > Yes, and in the Bible too, certainly in the Old Testament.
>> >
>> > John Starrett
>>
>> Are you suggesting there are many Jews that
>> keep slaves nowadays?
>
> It would as be ridiculous to think John Starrett is
suggesting
> that,

Is it? Then what was the point of saying that slavery
is acceptable in the Tanakh (what you call the OT)?

> as to think that John Chalmers is suggesting we should create
> clones of Adolf Hitler.

Dr. Chalmers said in all serious and I quote:

>> "However, since a clone would have a different
>> environmental and social history from the donor, his/her
>> personality would be different from the original.
>> One might as well try to clone a psychopath and
-----------------------------------------------
>> raise it to be a saint. This might even work as we know
----------------------
>> little about the genetic and environmental bases of
>> personality differences."

What part of that statement don't you understand,
Herr Erlich?

> What are you snorting, Jeff?

Accusing me of drug use because I state the truth?
Pretty low even for a bully like yourself.

- Jeff

🔗John Starrett <jstarret@...>

\begin{sarcasm}
Of course I am suggesting exactly that, and whatever else you think
makes me sound like a moron.
\end{sarcasm}

Please Jeff, save that type of rhetoric for when you get your own talk
show. We aren't stupid here.

John Starrett

🔗Afmmjr@...

In a message dated 9/27/01 7:06:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
paul@... writes:

> --- In metatuning@y..., "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> > >> It seems slavery is acceptable to the Koran.
> > >>
> > >> Johnny
> > >
> > > Yes, and in the Bible too, certainly in the Old Testament.
> > >
> > > John Starrett
> >
> > Are you suggesting there are many Jews that
> > keep slaves nowadays?
>
> It would as be ridiculous to think John Starrett is suggesting that,
> as to think that John Chalmers is suggesting we should create clones
> of Adolf Hitler. What are you snorting, Jeff?
>
>
>

Paul, there is a difference, though, in whether Jews and Christians have
slaves today, as a number of Islamic countries do. They do not, to my
knowledge.

I guess there is again a chasm of difference between a theory of the holy
books and the general practice by those who interpret.

Johnny Reinhard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗X. J. Scott <xjscott@...>

[Johnny:]

> Paul, there is a difference, though, in whether Jews and
> Christians have slaves today, as a number of Islamic
> countries do. They do not, to my knowledge.

> I guess there is again a chasm of difference between a theory
> of the holy books and the general practice by those who
> interpret.

> Johnny Reinhard

Thanks Johnny -- that was the point I was trying to
make.

It is correct that the Torah does not prohibit slavery,
though it does regulate treatment of slaves.

I do not know of any Jews that keep slaves in the world
today.

Unfortunately I am personally aware of situations in
Micronesia where Filipinos and Bangladeshis are kept by
'Evangelical Christians' as household, farm labor, and
occasionally sexual slaves. Some of these problems are
even diplomatically discussed in US State Dept. reports
about these countries (I do not wish to single out any
particular South Seas nation here as the problem is
endemic.)

Also it is not unusual to find 'Christian' farmers in
California who do not pay their day laborers, who abuse
them, and who leave them to live in horrible and
unhealthy conditions.

There are also 'Christian' businessmen and 'Christian'
stockholders who participate in slavery through the
overseas actions of businesses they are invested in.
Personally profitting from slaves out of sight and mind
I consider even more morally repugnant than profitting
from slaves that one is personally responsible, as was
found in early America.

- Jeff

🔗John Starrett <jstarret@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
<snip>
> Paul, there is a difference, though, in whether Jews and Christians
> have slaves today, as a number of Islamic countries do. They do
> not, to my knowledge.
> I guess there is again a chasm of difference between a theory of the
> holy books and the general practice by those who interpret.
>
> Johnny Reinhard

Sure there is a difference. The offhand remark I made that the Bible
allows slavery was purely academic. Certainly a few crazy Jews and
Christians have slaves somewhere in the world. You read about slave
operations in this country from time to time. But slavery is not a
general practice among Muslims, although it may be common and accepted
in some communities.

John Starrett

🔗John Starrett <jstarret@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
<snip>
> Unfortunately I am personally aware of situations in
> Micronesia where Filipinos and Bangladeshis are kept by
> 'Evangelical Christians' as household, farm labor, and
> occasionally sexual slaves. Some of these problems are
> even diplomatically discussed in US State Dept. reports
> about these countries (I do not wish to single out any
> particular South Seas nation here as the problem is
> endemic.)
>
> Also it is not unusual to find 'Christian' farmers in
> California who do not pay their day laborers, who abuse
> them, and who leave them to live in horrible and
> unhealthy conditions.
>
> There are also 'Christian' businessmen and 'Christian'
> stockholders who participate in slavery through the
> overseas actions of businesses they are invested in.
> Personally profitting from slaves out of sight and mind
> I consider even more morally repugnant than profitting
> from slaves that one is personally responsible, as was
> found in early America.
>
> - Jeff

I am a little but not too surprised. Do you have any links to internet
resources I can use to read more about the South Seas slavery?

John Starrett

🔗X. J. Scott <xjscott@...>

> I am a little but not too surprised. Do you have any links to
> internet resources I can use to read more about the South
> Seas slavery?

John,

I'll try to dig up the State Dept. reports.
For some reason unfathomable they are only
available on some obscure web server in
Switzerland and are not directly available
from the State Dept.'s main web site.

It's the human rights sheets thingy; forget
what they're called exactly.

Also there are tons of articles about the slavery
situation in the US territory of Saipan. This
is a real mess. A friend of mine in Oceanside
was from Saipan and hs father was the one to
break the Saipan story. He ran a video production
company there and filmed the conditions of the
slaves. He had his business burnt to the ground
by the Chinese that keep the slaves and his
family's life is under constant threat.

Might note that the items made by slaves there are
legally labelled 'Made in USA'. And should note that
the Saipan situation is not associated with Christians
AFAIK.

The best way to find out about the slave situation in
Micronesia in general is talk to someone who has been
there or visit there yourself and ask the Peace Corp
workers, or missionanries, or restaurant owners or what
have you who are Americans and they will fill you in on
what is happening.

I should note that most of the slaves in the area are
not entirely unhappy with their lot in life since it
tends to be better than the lives they left behind in
their home countries. That was part of the weird
situation I encountered down there. Happy slaves
don't want to be freed.

- Jeff

🔗X. J. Scott <xjscott@...>

> --- In metatuning@y..., "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
>> >> It seems slavery is acceptable to the Koran.
>> >>
>> >> Johnny
>> >
>> > Yes, and in the Bible too, certainly in the Old Testament.
>> >
>> > John Starrett
>>
>> Are you suggesting there are many Jews that
>> keep slaves nowadays?
>>
>> - Jeff
>
> \begin{sarcasm}
> Of course I am suggesting exactly that, and whatever else you
> think
> makes me sound like a moron.
> \end{sarcasm}
>
> Please Jeff, save that type of rhetoric for when you get your
> own talk
> show. We aren't stupid here.
>
> John Starrett

Sorry John,

The conversation was:

1. Gosh, don't Muslims keep slaves?
2. Yes, it seems like slavery is acceptable in the
Koran!
3. Wow! And let's not forget slavery is acceptable in
the Bible too!

At this point the obvious implication, given the
path of the conversation, is that people who
follow the 'Old Testament' (presumably Jews)
keep slaves as well. That's why I said 'Are
you suggesting' because it was certainly
implied by your statement and I wanted to know
if that's what you meant to say or if it came
across that way. A legitimate question and
totally non-rhetorical. In fact, as I pointed
out in subsequent post, a legitimate argument
*can* be made for the fact that at least some
'Christians', and perhaps even some 'Jews',
keep slaves in the world today. And certainly
we know that it was quite common for many Deists
and 'Christians' in the US to keep slaves for
many many years.

So what's the problem?

I think you did come back and say that you
brought it up simply as a intellectual point
and weren't trying to imply anything (and if
you *were* trying to imply something, I'd
be interested to discuss it because of my
own personal exposures and awareness of the
problems of slavery in the world today.)

- Jeff

🔗John Starrett <jstarret@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
>
> > --- In metatuning@y..., "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> >> >> It seems slavery is acceptable to the Koran.
> >> >>
> >> >> Johnny
> >> >
> >> > Yes, and in the Bible too, certainly in the Old Testament.
> >> >
> >> > John Starrett
> >>
> >> Are you suggesting there are many Jews that
> >> keep slaves nowadays?
> >>
> >> - Jeff
> >
> > \begin{sarcasm}
> > Of course I am suggesting exactly that, and whatever else you
> > think
> > makes me sound like a moron.
> > \end{sarcasm}
> >
> > Please Jeff, save that type of rhetoric for when you get your
> > own talk
> > show. We aren't stupid here.
> >
> > John Starrett
>
> Sorry John,
>
> The conversation was:
>
> 1. Gosh, don't Muslims keep slaves?
> 2. Yes, it seems like slavery is acceptable in the
> Koran!
> 3. Wow! And let's not forget slavery is acceptable in
> the Bible too!
>
> At this point the obvious implication, given the
> path of the conversation, is that people who
> follow the 'Old Testament' (presumably Jews)
> keep slaves as well.
<snip>
> - Jeff

I see you were following the momentum of the discussion, while I was
just pointing out an interesting fact. Fair enough, but I don't
believe Jews follow all of Mosaic law. Some of the requirements in the
Old Testament are extremely difficult or impossible to follow now.

John Starrett

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 9/27/01 7:06:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> paul@s... writes:
>
>
> > --- In metatuning@y..., "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> > > >> It seems slavery is acceptable to the Koran.
> > > >>
> > > >> Johnny
> > > >
> > > > Yes, and in the Bible too, certainly in the Old Testament.
> > > >
> > > > John Starrett
> > >
> > > Are you suggesting there are many Jews that
> > > keep slaves nowadays?
> >
> > It would as be ridiculous to think John Starrett is suggesting
that,
> > as to think that John Chalmers is suggesting we should create
clones
> > of Adolf Hitler. What are you snorting, Jeff?
> >
> >
> >
>
> Paul, there is a difference, though, in whether Jews and Christians
have
> slaves today, as a number of Islamic countries do. They do not, to
my
> knowledge.

That's exactly my point, Johnny! You must have misinterpreted
something above.

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

Well, that's not how I interpreted it. To me, the point was clearly
that just because something unjust is permitted in a particular
religion, doesn't mean we should associate members of that religion
with that something. It seemed that the fact that slavery was
permitted in the Koran was being used to paint Islam as a backwards
or barbaric religion, and hence that Muslims in general were a
barbaric people.

I saw the response being discussed here as merely pointing out that,
as religions, those that we ourselves are closest to are equally
backwards/barbaric. The fact that few or no Jews own slaves today
only strengthens the point that one cannot equate what is written in
a people's holy books with the present morals of that people in
general.

🔗Afmmjr@...

In a message dated 9/28/01 4:51:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
paul@... writes:

> Well, that's not how I interpreted it. To me, the point was clearly
> that just because something unjust is permitted in a particular
> religion, doesn't mean we should associate members of that religion
> with that something. It seemed that the fact that slavery was
> permitted in the Koran was being used to paint Islam as a backwards
> or barbaric religion, and hence that Muslims in general were a
> barbaric people.
>

Thanks for clearing this up, Paul. Unfortunately, you don't get it. Modern
day Islamic countries have widespread slavery: Sudan, Mauritania, Pakistan,
and likely the Emirates and Saudi Arabia. You are drawing your own
conclusions, but others draw different conclusions.

> I saw the response being discussed here as merely pointing out that,
> as religions, those that we ourselves are closest to are equally
> backwards/barbaric. The fact that few or no Jews own slaves today
> only strengthens the point that one cannot equate what is written in
> a people's holy books with the present morals of that people in
> general.
>
>

Really, I don't think you get it, Paul. That's okay. For the record, I
don't believe in religion, at least not for myself. What I wanted to do was
go to the source of the mysteries, the Koran. Have you read it? I suggest
everyone get a copy and start reading. Remember, also, this is the direct
word of Allah and can stand up to no criticism at all.

Sincerely, Johnny Reinhard (so as not to confuse with all the Johns)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]