Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup metatuning YES orchestration thread

>>Yes could be successfully transcribed for classical
>>instruments, I'm positive.
>
>I heartily disagree, though in their more Mantovani-like
>moments you may be more correct.

Well, you're free to disagree, but I'm positive. :)

>a film and concert composer of very good chops (and who had
>been a REAL Yes fan for decades) was tapped by the band to do
>the arrangements. He worked hard with them to find something
>that worked, did the best he could to add to what were already
>bloated and busy tunes, and came up with fairly good backing
>material (any time the orch stuff started to have any presence
>or character they complained). After a lot of hard work and a
>successful beginning to the tour, they shafted him and got a
>cheap for-hire conductor.

The Magnification tour? Is your friend Larry Groupe?!

>During rehearsals I was apalled at the low-level of musicianship
>in the band, though I didn't get much of a sense of Steve Howe,
>as he seemed in his own little world and focussed on his solos.
>But they couldn't even discuss music in basic musical terms, and
>the end result often looked like out-takes from "Spinal Tap".

They're sooo burned out, dude. I don't consider anything post
1978 to be Yes.

>Any rock and roll band worth it's salt comprises an energy and
>edge that no orchstration I've ever heard or played can match.

One obviously has to re-write the music somewhat. And obviously
the rock instruments can't be used at all.

>The closest I've ever heard a classical group capture the zip of
>'rock' was Ensemble Moderne's traversal of Zappa's music on "The
>Yellow Shark".

Yep, I've got that. It was going around Juilliard in '99.

-Carl

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...>

> >During rehearsals I was apalled at the low-level of musicianship
> >in the band, though I didn't get much of a sense of Steve Howe,
> >as he seemed in his own little world and focussed on his solos.
> >But they couldn't even discuss music in basic musical terms, and
> >the end result often looked like out-takes from "Spinal Tap".
>
> They're sooo burned out, dude. I don't consider anything post
> 1978 to be Yes.

Maybe they're so neurotic that they don't
understand why people like their best work.

I think clueless is the term.

Steve Howe's Turbulence with Bill Bruford is a great album.
I mention that because I'm involved in a prog-rock disscussion
somewhere else on the net. Turbulence seems to be
one of the last great prog-rock albums from the Yes gang.

> >Any rock and roll band worth it's salt comprises an energy and
> >edge that no orchstration I've ever heard or played can match.
>
> One obviously has to re-write the music somewhat. And obviously
> the rock instruments can't be used at all.
>
> >The closest I've ever heard a classical group capture the zip of
> >'rock' was Ensemble Moderne's traversal of Zappa's music on "The
> >Yellow Shark".
>
> Yep, I've got that. It was going around Juilliard in '99.

I haven't listened to the Yellow Shark in a few years, but
it is one of my fave Zappa albums. Amazing.
I'll get it out this weekend to try to find the zip of
rock.

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

db,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> wrote:
> Maybe they're so neurotic that they don't
> understand why people like their best work.

Well, the non-chemistry in the band, and the painfully obvious faked 'energy' and 'incredible group drumming improvisations' were really hard to take. As I said, I hadn't been much into the Yes material for a long time, but I did have a soft spot for them from my youth, and it was difficult to watch/listen.

> Steve Howe's Turbulence with Bill Bruford is a great album.
> I mention that because I'm involved in a prog-rock disscussion
> somewhere else on the net. Turbulence seems to be
> one of the last great prog-rock albums from the Yes gang.

I don't know that one! Even though (especially on a list like meta-) we all know each other pretty well, I am careful to not say things like "my favorite part of the group was Bill Bruford". The stereotypic "the drummer listens to the drummer", and all that. But it seems to me that of all the members of that band over the years, Bruford has had the most impressive and musical output in the last few decades. Never resting on laurels, usually challenging himself to not merely fill a drummers idea of drumming, and usually finding really interesting musicians to play with. I'd be curious to hear "Turbulence"!

> > Yep, I've got that. It was going around Juilliard in '99.
>
> I haven't listened to the Yellow Shark in a few years, but
> it is one of my fave Zappa albums. Amazing.
> I'll get it out this weekend to try to find the zip of
> rock.

Well, I *hope* you find zip! I enjoy that a lot, esp since it was so near the end of FZ. BTW, for you guitarists in the audience who also happen to approve of FZ, it has been really a great few years here in San Diego with guitarist Mike Keneally living here. He pops up here and there with (always different) interesting groups of players, and this guy is simply mind-numbing in the depth of his skill on the guitar and the breadth of his musicianship.

The over-used term: awesome. Then again, I'm a 'drummer'. :)

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

Carl,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> >>Yes could be successfully transcribed for classical
> >>instruments, I'm positive.
> >
> >I heartily disagree, though in their more Mantovani-like
> >moments you may be more correct.
>
> Well, you're free to disagree, but I'm positive. :)

OK then, rubber must now meet road: unless this is *purely* theoretical speculation on your part, based on not only never playing in an orchestra while it attempts to play many decades of arrangements of music of popular styles and *not* sound like it is a fat person swimming through motor oil, and also based on the fact that you've never tried to arrange or score for the same kind of ensemble, therefore never personally finding what doesn't work and what doesn't work even more...

...based on the above, could you point to any recordings of music that would lead you to believe that a standard size symphony orchestra could come even close the the power, thwack, and raw sexuality of a rock and roll band?

> The Magnification tour? Is your friend Larry Groupe?!

That's my boy. Larry has been close friends of my wife and I for 20 years, we hang out all the time (she was just recording at Warner Bros. last Friday with Larry conducting a score by Rolfe Kent), and he is one of the great undiscovered commercial composers (well, his heart is in film work) around today. He does a lot of work in Seattle (just saw his name on the conducting work for "About Schmidt"), and I've worked in the studio for 2 decades with Larry as the producer on a large production music library. He has the most accurate and fastest set of ears I've ever know a person to have in the booth. He can catch the slightest miscue, and can find the one element to add to a mix/arrangement that turns it from pedestrian to ultra.

I'm sorry. You can tell I like this man like he was my brother, which we sometimes joke that we are!

(and, along with the Mahler/MIDI thread, Larry is one of those who has mastered the 'fake orchestra' in his home studio; I've heard him do an orchestral score with all synths/samplers, and then just add maybe clarinet and cello [live] and even though orchs are my business, they come damn close to fooling my ears)

> They're sooo burned out, dude. I don't consider anything post
> 1978 to be Yes.

Sure, I understand about burnout. But they should get off the fucking stage then!

Leave rock and roll to the people that it really means something to, not the over-the-hill clowns who are simply trying to rake in Euros.

Gad, would someone please kick this soapbox out from under my feet!!!

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Paul Erlich <PERLICH@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> But it seems to me that of all the members of that band over the
>years, Bruford has had the most impressive and musical output in the
>last few decades. Never resting on laurels, usually challenging
>himself to not merely fill a drummers idea of drumming, and usually
>finding really interesting musicians to play with.

unfortunately, a recent earthworks show at scullers left me utterly
disappointed. bruford was the only convincing soloist, there were few
to no moments of convincing ensemble interplay, and only the first
and last tunes of the night were convincing as compositions. i see a
lot of shows at the jazz clubs around here, so i think i have a fair
basis for comparison. then again, it's just my opinion! (it's also my
opinion that jon anderson's voice is better than ever. so there!)

bruford's compositions in UK and Bruford are technically fascinating,
but manage to communicate absolutely nothing to me on an emotional
level. most of my friends think that stuff sounds like yes, but i
don't. as for the intervening periods in bruford's career, of course
king crimson is great, i have a nice album he did with ralph towner,
other than that i don't know much . . .

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:
> unfortunately, a recent earthworks show at scullers left me utterly
> disappointed. bruford was the only convincing soloist...

I had to work the night the played in SD a few weeks back, but your comment doesn't surprise me. I enjoyed the first album, less so the second, returned the third and ... have there been others? :)

Honestly, I think it was an interesting direction, mostly from Bruford's guidance, but the material got thinner and thinner as time went on. Wish it weren't so.

> (it's also my opinion that jon anderson's voice is better than
> ever. so there!)

As the youth of America say, "whatever"! He may have warmed up with time, but in San Diego he was straining - visibly - to hit most of the higher notes. Well, he is one of those singers who is an acquired taste, and I never chastise people if they like stuff like that. I had a nice visit with my friend that plays in Pearl Jam, and he was telling me about how he recorded some tracks with Geddy Lee for Lee's solo album (or one of them, I don't know). I asked if he was able to play along with the tracks *without* the vocals, or if they made him listen. <grin>

Cheers,
Jon

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@...>

> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:
> > unfortunately, a recent earthworks show at scullers left me utterly
> > disappointed. bruford was the only convincing soloist...
>
> I had to work the night the played in SD a few weeks back, but your
>comment doesn't surprise me. I enjoyed the first album, less so
>the second, returned the third and ... have there been others? :)
>
> Honestly, I think it was an interesting direction, mostly from
>Bruford's guidance, but the material got thinner and thinner as
>time went on. Wish it weren't so.

That's how I feel, one of my favorite prog-rock/fusion drummers
rides off into the sunset. Those first few Earthworks albums
were interesting, then less so. I guess Bill wants to
make sure the bills are paid, the kids get through
school. Nothing wrong with that, but the fans loose out.

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> wrote:
> That's how I feel, one of my favorite prog-rock/fusion drummers
> rides off into the sunset. Those first few Earthworks albums
> were interesting, then less so. I guess Bill wants to
> make sure the bills are paid, the kids get through
> school. Nothing wrong with that, but the fans loose out.

Some times you get to the point where you respect the musician enough to realize everything they do won't thrill you. I often wonder about someone like Bruford - he's the kind of player whose talents don't fit an easy box, so he has to make avenues for himself. Not all the avenues will pan out, and not all that are good will find commercial or public support, and therefore wither and die.

If he (or others in his boat) have a killer set of music, but can't interest promoters or record labels in it, we most likely will never hear of it. One can always self produce, but the chances of people *finding* it are pretty slim. I've been surfing hard for a few months, looking for music that inspires me. I've found some wonderful things, but a lot of them are veeeeery obscure people putting out their own material, and I doubt that too many will stumble across them.

Yeah, paying the bills is a drag; it is a shame that if one happens to do it with music it tends to cast a shadow on their more substantial contributions.

But who knows? Right now Elvin Jones and Roy Haynes are totally tearing it up (sticking just with drummers for now) and they are both in their mid-70's!!! Talk about a long 'career' in music! Damn, I hope ALL good musicians have that long to express what they want to!

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

> (it's also my opinion that jon anderson's voice is better
> than ever. so there!)

Being sarcastic, Paul?

IMO Anderson's voice peaked on Close To The Edge, right after
he quit smoking but before he blew it out. When they did the
Keys tour, I almost didn't recognize it, it sounded so off.

[Jon]
>>But it seems to me that of all the members of that band over
>>the years, Bruford has had the most impressive and musical
>>output in the last few decades.

Few decades? Since when, exactly, are you counting from?

>unfortunately, a recent earthworks show at scullers left me
>utterly disappointed. bruford was the only convincing soloist,
>there were few to no moments of convincing ensemble interplay,
>and only the first and last tunes of the night were convincing
>as compositions. i see a lot of shows at the jazz clubs
>around here, so i think i have a fair basis for comparison.
>then again, it's just my opinion!

They came to Yoshi's recently and I didn't even go...

>technically fascinating, but manage to communicate absolutely
>nothing to me on an emotional level.

Totally agree.

>as for the intervening periods in bruford's career, of course
>king crimson is great, i have a nice album he did with ralph
>towner, other than that i don't know much . . .

He did two albums with Patrick Moraz which I simply cannot
get, which are supposed to be fantastic, and given the quality
of Moraz' output lately, I believe it.

I have the Earthworks album with Towner, and nice, yes, but
totally forgettable, even boring. It's one of these where
for the first 3 minutes, I was like, "Holy s***", but then
immediately after that, "oh...".

-Carl

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

Carl,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> [Jon]
> >>But it seems to me that of all the members of that band over
> >>the years, Bruford has had the most impressive and musical
> >>output in the last few decades.
>
> Few decades? Since when, exactly, are you counting from?

I first listened to "Close to the Edge", when it was brand new, on the 8-track tape player in my '54 Chevy; I had just started college and would go back to my high school and play stuff for my music director, who was always open to new things. I remember a bunch of us hanging out and listening to that and "Birds of Fire". Don't - I said DON'T - pin me to an exact year, but it was right around '72, wasn't it? Like 3 decades ago, if you want to be pedantic.

> I have the Earthworks album with Towner, and nice, yes, but
> totally forgettable, even boring. It's one of these where
> for the first 3 minutes, I was like, "Holy s***", but then
> immediately after that, "oh...".

You can always go listen to some barbershop quartets.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

>>> But it seems to me that of all the members of that band
>>> over the years, Bruford has had the most impressive and
>>> musical output in the last few decades.
>>
>> Few decades? Since when, exactly, are you counting from?
>
> I first listened to "Close to the Edge", when it was brand new,
> on the 8-track tape player in my '54 Chevy; I had just started
> college and would go back to my high school and play stuff for
> my music director, who was always open to new things. I
> remember a bunch of us hanging out and listening to that and
> "Birds of Fire". Don't - I said DON'T - pin me to an exact year,
> but it was right around '72, wasn't it? Like 3 decades ago, if
> you want to be pedantic.

Birds of what?

Yep, ctte was '72, the same year as Fragile I believe, but
certainly a quantum leap ahead of that album. Relayer is the
sister album to ctte, with Topographic Oceans in between.
It's a blood war over which is actually the best. The switch
from Bruford to Alan White occured between ctte and Tales, and
ctte is the only classic material I know of for which both
Bruford and White created a drum part, Bruford's being far
superior IMO.

Outside of his astounding contribution to Relayer (esp. the
2nd track), I never thought that much of White. Bruford is
one of my favorite drummers... the stream-of-beats style
showcased in the duet with Squire during the introduction
buildup to Heart of the Sunrise... the live solo in Perpetual
Change as heard on YesSongs...

However, IMO Wakeman, Moraz and Howe all outstrip Bruford in
musical output since 1972.

>> I have the Earthworks album with Towner, and nice, yes, but
>> totally forgettable, even boring. It's one of these where
>> for the first 3 minutes, I was like, "Holy s***", but then
>> immediately after that, "oh...".
>
> You can always go listen to some barbershop quartets.

Eh?

-Carl

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...>

> >>> But it seems to me that of all the members of that band
> >>> over the years, Bruford has had the most impressive and
> >>> musical output in the last few decades.
> >>
> >> Few decades? Since when, exactly, are you counting from?
> >
> > I first listened to "Close to the Edge", when it was brand new,
> > on the 8-track tape player in my '54 Chevy; I had just started
> > college and would go back to my high school and play stuff for
> > my music director, who was always open to new things. I
> > remember a bunch of us hanging out and listening to that and
> > "Birds of Fire". Don't - I said DON'T - pin me to an exact year,
> > but it was right around '72, wasn't it? Like 3 decades ago, if
> > you want to be pedantic.
>
> Birds of what?

???
!

> Yep, ctte was '72, the same year as Fragile I believe, but
> certainly a quantum leap ahead of that album. Relayer is the
> sister album to ctte, with Topographic Oceans in between.
> It's a blood war over which is actually the best. The switch
> from Bruford to Alan White occured between ctte and Tales, and
> ctte is the only classic material I know of for which both
> Bruford and White created a drum part, Bruford's being far
> superior IMO.
>
> Outside of his astounding contribution to Relayer (esp. the
> 2nd track), I never thought that much of White. Bruford is
> one of my favorite drummers... the stream-of-beats style
> showcased in the duet with Squire during the introduction
> buildup to Heart of the Sunrise... the live solo in Perpetual
> Change as heard on YesSongs...
>
> However, IMO Wakeman, Moraz and Howe all outstrip Bruford in
> musical output since 1972.
>
> >> I have the Earthworks album with Towner, and nice, yes, but
> >> totally forgettable, even boring. It's one of these where
> >> for the first 3 minutes, I was like, "Holy s***", but then
> >> immediately after that, "oh...".
> >
> > You can always go listen to some barbershop quartets.
>
> Eh?

LOL!

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

Carl,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> Birds of what?

[from some prog-rock page, but good enough description]:

"John McLaughlin's Mahavishnu Orchestra is considered by many to be the greatest Jazz-fusion group of all time. The group was formed in late 1970- early 1971 by McLaughlin, a brilliant guitarist with a jazz-rock pedigree that included work with the Graham Bond Organisation in the mid-60s, and with the electrified Miles Davis on his landmark "Bitches Brew" LP in 1969.

The original Orchestra included Jan Hammer (later to score TV's "Miami Vice") on keyboards, Jerry Goodman on violin, Rick Laird on bass, and Billy Cobham on drums. They released two fabulous studio albums, Inner Mounting Flame and Birds of Fire, along with a disappointing live album, Between Nothingness and Eternity.

A reformation of the group in 1974 brought Jean-Luc Ponty on board to play violin, along with a host of new supporting musicians (which McLaughlin went on record as saying was the "real Mahavishnu Orchestra"). The Orchestra faded into the sunset in 1975 with the release of the excellent Visions of the Emerald Beyond album, as McLaughlin went on to greener pastures, including a wealth of solo work and further collaborations with Miles Davis and Carlos Santana."

If you forgot, I can fathom it; if you weren't even aware of this group, you missed something important.

> Yep, ctte was '72, the same year as Fragile I believe...

Well, thanks for the apology about the snotty "decades" remark.

> It's a blood war over which is actually the best.

For those that care. As if one thing can be 'better' than the other. People, and it is mostly men, seem pathetically interested in 'measuring' things.

> However, IMO Wakeman, Moraz and Howe all outstrip Bruford in
> musical output since 1972.

Fine. We all have our opinions, and that is all they are. I have always thought Rick Wakeman was a pompous bore, and Steve Howe just never made any kind of impression on me. I realize that he is revered by many guitarists, but it may very well be a guitar thing; there are certainly other guitarists that germinated during the 70's that I have a lot more interest in as a listener. Pat Moraz always seemed like a good player (and composer), but I hadn't heard his name in many years.

As far as "outstripping music output", I have no idea if you mean quality or quantity, but that is so subjective that it is meaningless. We *can* voice our opinions, but that is all they are.

> >> I have the Earthworks album with Towner, and nice, yes, but
> >> totally forgettable, even boring. It's one of these where
> >> for the first 3 minutes, I was like, "Holy s***", but then
> >> immediately after that, "oh...".
> >
> > You can always go listen to some barbershop quartets.
>
> Eh?

It was a sarcastic remark.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

Jon!
I saw a show with Londoun Wainwright, Antony Newman and ensemble playing the 5th brandenberg, and Mahavishnu with the original line up. (Columbia was doing a week of their artist with such mixed bills) I partically liked Jan Hammers solos as being the most sparse but concise. this band to went down hill fast as it is pretty hard to keep such intensity going.Only Cecil Taylor has managed to hold that type of energy, but he is in a different ballpark. I really really liked
Mahavishnu at the time but am amazed at how badly it has stood the test of time. it is kinda chessey to me now. Miles on the other hand went the other way for me , with the post bitches brew stuff not really me impressing me as much as the time and find it greater with age. Big fun.

Jon Szanto wrote:

> Carl,
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> > Birds of what?
>
> [from some prog-rock page, but good enough description]:
>
> "John McLaughlin's Mahavishnu Orchestra is considered by many to be the greatest Jazz-fusion group of all time. The group was formed in late 1970- early 1971 by McLaughlin, a brilliant guitarist with a jazz-rock pedigree that included work with the Graham Bond Organisation in the mid-60s, and with the electrified Miles Davis on his landmark "Bitches Brew" LP in 1969.
>
> The original Orchestra included Jan Hammer (later to score TV's "Miami Vice") on keyboards, Jerry Goodman on violin, Rick Laird on bass, and Billy Cobham on drums. They released two fabulous studio albums, Inner Mounting Flame and Birds of Fire, along with a disappointing live album, Between Nothingness and Eternity.
>
> A reformation of the group in 1974 brought Jean-Luc Ponty on board to play violin, along with a host of new supporting musicians (which McLaughlin went on record as saying was the "real Mahavishnu Orchestra"). The Orchestra faded into the sunset in 1975 with the release of the excellent Visions of the Emerald Beyond album, as McLaughlin went on to greener pastures, including a wealth of solo work and further collaborations with Miles Davis and Carlos Santana."
>
> If you forgot, I can fathom it; if you weren't even aware of this group, you missed something important.
>
> > Yep, ctte was '72, the same year as Fragile I believe...
>
> Well, thanks for the apology about the snotty "decades" remark.
>
> > It's a blood war over which is actually the best.
>
> For those that care. As if one thing can be 'better' than the other. People, and it is mostly men, seem pathetically interested in 'measuring' things.
>
> > However, IMO Wakeman, Moraz and Howe all outstrip Bruford in
> > musical output since 1972.
>
> Fine. We all have our opinions, and that is all they are. I have always thought Rick Wakeman was a pompous bore, and Steve Howe just never made any kind of impression on me. I realize that he is revered by many guitarists, but it may very well be a guitar thing; there are certainly other guitarists that germinated during the 70's that I have a lot more interest in as a listener. Pat Moraz always seemed like a good player (and composer), but I hadn't heard his name in many years.
>
> As far as "outstripping music output", I have no idea if you mean quality or quantity, but that is so subjective that it is meaningless. We *can* voice our opinions, but that is all they are.
>
> > >> I have the Earthworks album with Towner, and nice, yes, but
> > >> totally forgettable, even boring. It's one of these where
> > >> for the first 3 minutes, I was like, "Holy s***", but then
> > >> immediately after that, "oh...".
> > >
> > > You can always go listen to some barbershop quartets.
> >
> > Eh?
>
> It was a sarcastic remark.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
>
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-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

Kraig,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

> I really really liked Mahavishnu at the time but am amazed at
> how badly it has stood the test of time. it is kinda chessey
> to me now.

This thread has made me curious, and I'm going to pull out the LP of "Birds..." and see how it strikes me.

> I partically liked Jan Hammers solos as being the most sparse
> but concise.

I realize his 'true musician' creds may have taken a hit when he did so well with his "Miami Vice" scoring, but while many people extole this and that 'electronic' album, Hammer had a solo album called, IIRC, "The First Seven Days", and it was really a beautiful example of how to 'orchestrate' with the synth resources of the time (mid-70's). I don't know if it is well known, but it had some very find qualities. Maybe I've got that in the LP cabinet, too...

Cheers,
Jon

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@...>

> > I partically liked Jan Hammers solos as being the most sparse
> > but concise.
>
> I realize his 'true musician' creds may have taken a hit when
>he did so well with his "Miami Vice" scoring, but while many
>people extole this and that 'electronic' album, Hammer had a
>solo album called, IIRC, "The First Seven Days", and it was
>really a beautiful example of how to 'orchestrate' with the
>synth resources of the time (mid-70's). I don't know if it is
>well known, but it had some very find qualities. Maybe I've
>got that in the LP cabinet, too...

Jan was interesting when he was analog (even the Miami Vixe material).

I saw him at the Bottom Line about 10, 15 years ago...w/Tony Williams.
I think the "tour" played maybe 5 other shows. That was
pretty exciting, sitting 10 feet away from TW performing (RIP).

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

Jon!
I remember also having a solo album with him that also had Jerry goodman on it also which i liked a few tracks on. B&W cover is all i remember. might even had been a goodman album can't remember. The problem with the group, which i saw every time they came to town, was that the larger it got, the less tight it got which is understandable. the last time John degenerated into playing LAYLA in the middle of a solo, he needed a break for sure. Some Michael
gibbs string quartet arrangements were quite good though (i knew of his work on the gary burton,THROB album from years before. ) and even liked his work on Paprika Plains on a Joni Mitchell Album ( a woman who can do no wrong, even though i haven't bought any albums for years)

Jon Szanto wrote:

> Kraig,
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
>
> > I really really liked Mahavishnu at the time but am amazed at
> > how badly it has stood the test of time. it is kinda chessey
> > to me now.
>
> This thread has made me curious, and I'm going to pull out the LP of "Birds..." and see how it strikes me.
>
> > I partically liked Jan Hammers solos as being the most sparse
> > but concise.
>
> I realize his 'true musician' creds may have taken a hit when he did so well with his "Miami Vice" scoring, but while many people extole this and that 'electronic' album, Hammer had a solo album called, IIRC, "The First Seven Days", and it was really a beautiful example of how to 'orchestrate' with the synth resources of the time (mid-70's). I don't know if it is well known, but it had some very find qualities. Maybe I've got that in the LP cabinet, too...
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
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-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kraig Grady" <kraiggrady@...>
To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: YES orchestration thread

> Jon!
> I remember also having a solo album with him that also
>had Jerry goodman on it also which i liked a few tracks on.
>B&W cover is all i remember. might even had been a goodman
>album can't remember.

It's called Like Children.

>The problem with the group, which i
>saw every time they came to town, was that the larger it got,
>the less tight it got which is understandable. the last time John
>degenerated into playing LAYLA in the middle of a solo, he needed a break
for sure.

So they got burnt out. I thought they broke up
because JMc didn't want to let anyone else write
any tunes. Probably a bit of both, I'd think.

I saw the MO2 on their Apocalypse tour in Central Park. Boy, that
was exciting - my first "rock" concert!

>Some Michael
> gibbs string quartet arrangements were quite good though
>(i knew of his work on the gary burton,THROB album from
>years before. ) and even liked his work on Paprika Plains
>on a Joni Mitchell Album ( a woman who can do no wrong,
>even though i haven't bought any albums for years)

Aside from Apocalypse, I'm not too familiar with Gibbs,
although I know who he is.

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

🔗Paul Erlich <PERLICH@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> >>> But it seems to me that of all the members of that band
> >>> over the years, Bruford has had the most impressive and
> >>> musical output in the last few decades.
> >>
> >> Few decades? Since when, exactly, are you counting from?
> >
> > I first listened to "Close to the Edge", when it was brand new,
> > on the 8-track tape player in my '54 Chevy; I had just started
> > college and would go back to my high school and play stuff for
> > my music director, who was always open to new things. I
> > remember a bunch of us hanging out and listening to that and
> > "Birds of Fire". Don't - I said DON'T - pin me to an exact year,
> > but it was right around '72, wasn't it? Like 3 decades ago, if
> > you want to be pedantic.
>
> Birds of what?

mahavishnu orchestra 1973. _birds of fire_. get it now! welcome to
the world of fusion!

> However, IMO Wakeman, Moraz and Howe all outstrip Bruford in
> musical output since 1972.

wow. as much as UK (Bruford, Jobson, Wetton, Holdsworth) and Bruford
(the band with Berlin, Holdsworth, and Stewart) leave me cold, at
least my lunch stays down, which is more than i can say for wakeman!

what about national health, carl?

what about freaking king crimson??

🔗Paul Erlich <PERLICH@...>

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Erlich" <PERLICH@...>

> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> wrote:
>
> > Aside from Apocalypse, I'm not too familiar with Gibbs,
> > although I know who he is.
>
> bob moses played on _chrome waterfall_, a 1975 gibbs album i recently
> stumbled across. philip catherine on guitar, steve swallow on
> bass . . . . fine 70s fusion, with better-than-normal orchestration.

I've been trying to cut back on my cd buying.

> now i'm still trying to find any cds by maria schneider . . .

Amazon.com

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <PERLICH@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Erlich" <PERLICH@A...>
>
> Carl said:
>
> > > However, IMO Wakeman, Moraz and Howe all outstrip Bruford in
> > > musical output since 1972.
> >
> > wow. as much as UK (Bruford, Jobson, Wetton, Holdsworth) and
Bruford
> > (the band with Berlin, Holdsworth, and Stewart) leave me cold, at
> > least my lunch stays down, which is more than i can say for
wakeman!
>
> UK leaves you cold?

yup, as jon and i were just discussing. in fact, i find it positively
icy.

> It was such a breath of fresh air at the time.

well, i knew nothing of it at the time, all i knew was the beatles
and tons of classical music (i was about 5 years old). now that i
know it, i sort of hear it as a "forced supergroup" rather than an
organic entity of a band -- maybe it's just that they were looking
ahead towards the 80s but i'm more partial to the sound/vibe of the
late 60s and early 70s, for the most part (the police being a huge
exception). the next "forced supergroup" was of course asia,
hopefully we don't have to go there . . .

> What's a matter? Not a Holdsworth fan?

fabulous technician, overall he's all right, pretty abstract and,
yeah, cold. i much prefer his predecessor in gong (steve
hillage) . . .

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

> > Birds of what?
>
> [from some prog-rock page, but good enough description]:
>
> "John McLaughlin's Mahavishnu Orchestra is considered by many
> to be the greatest Jazz-fusion group of all time.

I prefer Return to Forever. You might accuse me of being a
keyboardist.

I have The Inner Mounting Flame, and something else... don't
think it's birds of fire.

>They released two fabulous studio albums, Inner Mounting Flame
>and Birds of Fire,

Oh, I do have birds of fire, then.

>If you forgot, I can fathom it; if you weren't even aware of
>this group, you missed something important.

Start fathoming! I thought you were talking about a group.

> > Yep, ctte was '72, the same year as Fragile I believe...
>
> Well, thanks for the apology about the snotty "decades" remark.

Eh? I was just asking, since they were all gods back then.
I assumed you meant in the last few years, when it might be
easier to pick one of them above the rest. That's all. In
fact I didn't even realize you were upset until now. Sheesh.
We all have access to all the music here... I suppose it was
probably cooler when it was actually happening, but I'm quite
satisfied with my experiences discovering this stuff.

> For those that care. As if one thing can be 'better' than the
> other. People, and it is mostly men, seem pathetically
> interested in 'measuring' things.

Ah, women deny it, but they care about measurements too.

> Fine. We all have our opinions, and that is all they are. I
> have always thought Rick Wakeman was a pompous bore,

I don't know if I'd go that far, though I wouldn't let him go
without criticism of his cliche trilly noodlings and misplaced
classical rippings. However, Myths and Legends of King Arthur,
Journey to the Centre of the Earth, and 1984 are classics.

>Steve Howe just never made any kind of impression on me.

I think his album Beginnings is quite good, and his chemistry
with Anderson as co-writer of many Yes tunes superb.

>I realize that he is revered by many guitarists, but it may
>very well be a guitar thing; there are certainly other
>guitarists that germinated during the 70's that I have a lot
>more interest in as a listener. Pat Moraz always seemed like a
>good player (and composer), but I hadn't heard his name in
>many years.

I'm told (and imagine I can hear) that in many respects Howe
isn't a good guitarist. But I can think of any guitarist
whose parts in a band I like as much.

> > > You can always go listen to some barbershop quartets.
> >
> > Eh?
>
> It was a sarcastic remark.

Oh. I think the our first exchange was, 'I don't get much
mileage from barbershop 4tets', and I asked what "4tets" meant.

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

> at least my lunch stays down, which is more than i can say
> for wakeman!

It's funny. I was playing Yes on the radio out here, and
I could tell that nobody was digging it. Even to _me_, in
that setting, it felt sappy and lunch-uppingly proto-New Age.
When the magic's not working, you can see all the flaws.

Wakeman's magic isn't as strong as Yes', but you can't deny
he was part of some cool productions, if you've ever heard
Myths and Legends. And Six Wives is, for most keyboardists
I know, a tremendously important album.

> what about national health, carl?

Now there's a band I really don't know.

> what about freaking king crimson??

One of my few really important post-high school discoveries,
credit for which pretty much goes to you. I don't think I'm
missing any of their 70's output at this point (it's huge)...

Bruford. I don't know... I never noticed his input in
Crimson as much as I did in Yes. Maybe I should go back and
listen for it...

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> > > Birds of what?
> >
> > [from some prog-rock page, but good enough description]:
> >
> > "John McLaughlin's Mahavishnu Orchestra is considered by many
> > to be the greatest Jazz-fusion group of all time.
>
> I prefer Return to Forever. You might accuse me of being a
> keyboardist.

As I mentioned, that wasn't my description of them, but was apt enough. I've already mentioned I'm not into the "good, better, best" way of thinking about ranking and measurement, but somebody apparantly was.

For the record, I enjoyed a number of the RTF recordings. I don't know if it went under the RTF moniker, but I thought the Corea-led album "The Leprechaun" was pretty nice.

As for being a keyboardist, it is hard for any of us to ignore our central mode of expression and influences. For myself, I've chafed all my life under the "drummers just listen to drummers", and early on got more interested in the total package. Not that I *don't* listen to their contribution, but try and keep it in context.

> Start fathoming! I thought you were talking about a group.

Uh, ok. Maybe it was a bit of a non-sequiter, and if the album hadn't hit you in real-time (i.e. you heard it later) I can see it would have an indelible impression.

> Eh? I was just asking, since they were all gods back then.
> I assumed you meant in the last few years, when it might be
> easier to pick one of them above the rest. That's all. In
> fact I didn't even realize you were upset until now. Sheesh.

OK, but one of the things that turns off a lot of people on these lists is that a good number of the correspondents just simply refuse to take someone's word. I said decades, I meant decades, it was decades, but someone has to call it into question. *That* is the background on my remarks, and if it was an innocent question intended to gather more info, I'm sorry. Then again, it comes out of the above milieu, so either giving the other party the benefit of the doubt, or asking in some other way than calling into question the persons grasp of reality might be nice.

> We all have access to all the music here... I suppose it was
> probably cooler when it was actually happening, but I'm quite
> satisfied with my experiences discovering this stuff.

Sure. The music can usually work on its own, but one also has to acknowledge the impact a work can have 'in it's time', because what is ground-breaking at one point can seem dated later. It is perfectly understandable that this happens, but it also means that to experience it in the two differing eras can, and does, have a different quality of impact on the listener. At least that is how it seems to me.

> Ah, women deny it, but they care about measurements too.

Not to the same degree, or in the same manner. Mars and Venus.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

As long as we are digging in the gutter , i personally found ( and still do) consider Cream far more innovative and the live version of Spoonful off the wheels of fire album , well shows ground that was possibly never really equaled or followed afterwards. The blues treated as a raga. Bruces counterpoint to clapton (it was not the other way around) remains some of the unique bass playing.

Jon Szanto wrote:

> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> > > > Birds of what?
> > >
> > > [from some prog-rock page, but good enough description]:
> > >
> > > "John McLaughlin's Mahavishnu Orchestra is considered by many
> > > to be the greatest Jazz-fusion group of all time.
> >
> > I prefer Return to Forever. You might accuse me of being a
> > keyboardist.
>
> As I mentioned, that wasn't my description of them, but was apt enough. I've already mentioned I'm not into the "good, better, best" way of thinking about ranking and measurement, but somebody apparantly was.
>
> For the record, I enjoyed a number of the RTF recordings. I don't know if it went under the RTF moniker, but I thought the Corea-led album "The Leprechaun" was pretty nice.
>
> As for being a keyboardist, it is hard for any of us to ignore our central mode of expression and influences. For myself, I've chafed all my life under the "drummers just listen to drummers", and early on got more interested in the total package. Not that I *don't* listen to their contribution, but try and keep it in context.
>
> > Start fathoming! I thought you were talking about a group.
>
> Uh, ok. Maybe it was a bit of a non-sequiter, and if the album hadn't hit you in real-time (i.e. you heard it later) I can see it would have an indelible impression.
>
> > Eh? I was just asking, since they were all gods back then.
> > I assumed you meant in the last few years, when it might be
> > easier to pick one of them above the rest. That's all. In
> > fact I didn't even realize you were upset until now. Sheesh.
>
> OK, but one of the things that turns off a lot of people on these lists is that a good number of the correspondents just simply refuse to take someone's word. I said decades, I meant decades, it was decades, but someone has to call it into question. *That* is the background on my remarks, and if it was an innocent question intended to gather more info, I'm sorry. Then again, it comes out of the above milieu, so either giving the other party the benefit of the doubt, or asking in some other way than calling into question the persons grasp of reality might be nice.
>
> > We all have access to all the music here... I suppose it was
> > probably cooler when it was actually happening, but I'm quite
> > satisfied with my experiences discovering this stuff.
>
> Sure. The music can usually work on its own, but one also has to acknowledge the impact a work can have 'in it's time', because what is ground-breaking at one point can seem dated later. It is perfectly understandable that this happens, but it also means that to experience it in the two differing eras can, and does, have a different quality of impact on the listener. At least that is how it seems to me.
>
> > Ah, women deny it, but they care about measurements too.
>
> Not to the same degree, or in the same manner. Mars and Venus.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> As long as we are digging in the gutter , i personally found ( and still do) consider Cream far more innovative and the live version of Spoonful off the wheels of fire album...

Ohmygod. Well, as long as we're among friends I'll just state publically that the first bands I was ever in, around 9th and 10th grade, were 'power trios'. I guess partly because we formed around myself and the best kid guitarist at our school and someone else who could play bass, and we 'performed' solely from the repertoire of Cream and Hendrix. Played as loud as we could, and for a couple of the gigs I can even remember borrowing some apple seed necklaces from the older sister of the guitarist, to desperately look more cool and hippie-like.

Ah, youth. I still remember that mirror-silver double gatefold "Wheels of Fire" album. I love CDs, but I sure as hell miss album covers. What to people use these days to clean dope? :)

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Paul Erlich <PERLICH@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> >no way. i saw them twice in 2002, once in 2000, once in 1999,
> >once in 1998 . . . i stand by my statement. the only thing that
> >sounded better than the original was jon's voice, and maybe
> >howe's acoustic guitar, though his electric guitar was sub-par.
> >you'll find these are common observations on yesnet.
>
> The yesnet/nfte thing was one of the first electronic forums
> I ever checked out. I never contributed, and stopped looking
> in 2001. I never got the impression that anybody there was
> listening to the same things I was. Though I have to admit I
> find the mere discussion of the Rabin stuff, the Ladder,
> Magnification, under the rubric of Yes slightly offensive.
>
> -Carl

all i've ever seen of it is what is under specific concert date
listings (when you click on "reviews"). i didn't even know there was
more to it than that. btw, the segue of don't kill the whale into
magnification was simply awesome, and the only way i could like the
latter song.

🔗Paul Erlich <PERLICH@...>

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Erlich" <PERLICH@...>

> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
> wrote:
> > As long as we are digging in the gutter , i personally found ( and
> >still do) consider Cream far more innovative and the live version of
> >Spoonful off the wheels of fire album , well shows ground that was
> >possibly never really equaled or followed afterwards. The blues
> >treated as a raga. Bruces counterpoint to clapton (it was not the
> >other way around) remains some of the unique bass playing.
>
> so clapton never listened to bruce? i admit it's possible for such a
> youngster, but how are you so sure? can you tell just by listening?
> that's possible too . . .

It always felt that way to me...

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <PERLICH@...>

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

Well i am sure Clapton is listening on some part, but plays as if the other
parts are just his "accompaniment". Bruce is taking it, varying it, and
surrounding him on all sides. Like david, it sounds this way. and i have listen
to it way to much in my life. I could write down from memory. It would be an
injustice not to give Eric his due. This was some of his most original playing
and shows that despite his very close association with Hendrix, he took his own
path. i don't know of playing like it since. it sometimes helps not to know what
one is doing (and we microtonalist are in the prime time for this) cause later
on , so much gets codified, narrowing those unique things o happen. hence jazz
fusion solidified quite quickly. I noticed today that McLaughlin was touring
with Zakir and Shinivas. real monsters
I think if i was a just a little bit younger, Yes would have done more for
me. Beck's (real) father produced fragile i think it was BTW

David Beardsley wrote:

> > so clapton never listened to bruce? i admit it's possible for such a
> > youngster, but how are you so sure? can you tell just by listening?
> > that's possible too . . .

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <PERLICH@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
>
>
> Well i am sure Clapton is listening on some part, but plays as
if the other
> parts are just his "accompaniment". Bruce is taking it, varying it,
and
> surrounding him on all sides. Like david, it sounds this way. and i
have listen
> to it way to much in my life. I could write down from memory. It
would be an
> injustice not to give Eric his due. This was some of his most
original playing
> and shows that despite his very close association with Hendrix, he
took his own
> path. i don't know of playing like it since. it sometimes helps not
to know what
> one is doing (and we microtonalist are in the prime time for this)
cause later
> on , so much gets codified, narrowing those unique things o happen.
hence jazz
> fusion solidified quite quickly. I noticed today that McLaughlin
was touring
> with Zakir and Shinivas. real monsters

i know exactly what you mean, on *all* of the above! we have much in
common, kraig. btw, the three "remember shakti" albums that recently
came out have been a huge influence on me.

> Beck's (real) father produced fragile i think it was BTW

beck offord???!! wow, i'll have to look that up!

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <PERLICH@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <PERLICH@A...>
wrote:
> > btw, the three "remember shakti" albums that recently
> > came out have been a huge influence on me.
>
> Can you clarify the "remember shakti" reference? I have the
>original album, maybe another (if they did more than one). It was
>very much appreciated by my taste buds, and I remember seeing that
>lineup play live, sitting (fortunately) very close, and the music
>making was of the highest order. On that night, at least, the egos
>had been checked at the door and a higher purpose was being served.

there are three _remember shakti_ releases:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000IGQ3/104-0192270-9097519

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-
/B00004XQ96/ref=pd_bxgy_img_2/104-0192270-9097519?v=glance&s=music

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-
/B00005JJ95/ref=pd_sim_music_1/104-0192270-9097519?v=glance&s=music

🔗Paul Erlich <PERLICH@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <PERLICH@A...>
wrote:
> > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...>
wrote:
> >
> > > Steve Howe just never made any kind of impression on me.
> >
> > his playing on 1971's _the yes album_ is fresh, multi-stylistic,
> > creative, purposeful, even virtuosic
>
> Obviously not to my ears, or taste. The last descriptor is
>especially a non-event for me, as I don't happen to revere
>virtuosity in the same way that many people do. As I said, he never
>made an impression on me. Mind you, that includes the he didn't make
>a _bad_ impression!
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

well, i think one of the great things about howe's playing (at least
on _the yes album_) is that it *doesn't* go out of its way to make an
impression, it's just seamlessly integrated as part of the music. the
band/song as a whole makes an impression, not any particular
instrumentalist. wakeman joined later and kind of ruined that aspect
of the band, in my opinion. now *there's* virtuosity that i certainly
*don't* revere!

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <PERLICH@...>

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

Paul,

> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> Any favorites of the three?

> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:
> i think the purple one is my least favorite

You're so funny - there are three items and I ask for favorite(s), and you tell me your *least* favorite of the three. This leaves me to take pot luck on one of the other two, unless you think

a. I'm flush with cash
b. they are so equally cool I need em both.

In the future I may phrase my questions in multiple-choice form! :)

Cheers,
Jon