Reply to Carl

Carl, sorry to be so slow; I haven't forgotten you...

[I wrote:]
>>I own the fruits of my labor,

[Carl:]
>And what are the fruits of your labor? Do you own a car?
>Did you create it? Who created it? Who has the right to
>set its price?

Its price is set by the market. I trade my labor for
a convenient medium of exchange ("dollars") at a rate
my employer and I negotiate without government
interference. I take those dollars and troll the local
car dealer and see what I can work out, again without
government coercion. Or I talk to my next door neighbor,
who's got a car nobody seems to use much, and ask if he
wants to sell it. Good basic barter.

[JdL:]
>>and I claim the right to trade peacefully with others,
>>without interference.

[Carl:]
>Who gives you that right?

I claim it as the inalienable right of all free individuals to
trade peacefully with others.

[Carl:]
>Who protects you from pirates?

The government of the size and scope that I consider legitimate
concerns itself with such things.

>I say, you are not protected from pirates, but the pirates
>have been bred fairly tame.

Uhhh, you lost me there.

[Carl:]
>>>Governments are free-market entities that must survive, like
>>>everything else.

[JdL:]
>>No they're not. Bill Gates doesn't force sales at the point
>>of a gun.

[Carl:]
>But it's getting to the point where I couldn't survive without
>Bill Gates. Certainly, where I was raised, I couldn't survive
>without a car. Was I coerced into working 40-hour weeks for
>years to afford one?

Bill's face is out there, no question, and to vow to avoid him
means to close many doors. Therefore what? Let us be very
careful that the "cure" is not worse than the "disease".

[JdL:]
>>George Bush does.

[Carl:]
>I long for the day without compulsory financing. Meanwhile I
>suspect that people are forced to pay taxes for a reason --
>they otherwise lack the clarity to behave. So it's a choice
>between freely-chosen chaos and order at the point of a gun.
>I'm honestly not sure which I'd rather have.

Are you serious? You are scaring me.

[Carl:]
>What's Freedom? What does it work for?

Well dang, what is not clear here? The idea that each one of us
makes his own determination of what he will spend his efforts
creating, and goes about freely marketing the fruits of his
labors to others.

[Carl:]
>>>I notice the strike-the-root site only accepts articles
>>>that support certain fundamental doctrines. A very
>>>distressing sign of political methodology. On the tuning
>>>tuning list we don't delete posts advocating 12-tET.

[JdL:]
>>LOL! Are you condemning any site that takes a stand? Would,
>>according to the Carl Lumma school of Perfect Society, everyone
>>be forced to post a representative sample of every viewpoint?
>>Now THERE's a Utopia for you; I can't wait!

[Carl:]
>I simply stated that this is not a scientific methodology, a
>fact of which I'm sure you're well aware. Naturally, he has
>the obligation to post only what he wants. But if he wants to
>restrict scientific discourse, our ability to trust his
>publication goes down.

"Scientific methodology" has little relevance here, in my view.

[Carl:]
>Leave the shirt-tearing at home.

Sorry, you lost me again.

I know I'm way behind in responding to other posts of yours; will
make up as I'm able.

JdL

>>Who protects you from pirates?
>
>The government of the size and scope that I consider legitimate
>concerns itself with such things.

So there is place for a government, after all.

>>I say, you are not protected from pirates, but the pirates
>>have been bred fairly tame.
>
>Uhhh, you lost me there.

In this allegory our governments are pirates, after years of
being forced to obey things like constitutions.

>>But it's getting to the point where I couldn't survive without
>>Bill Gates. Certainly, where I was raised, I couldn't survive
>>without a car. Was I coerced into working 40-hour weeks for
>>years to afford one?
>
>Bill's face is out there, no question, and to vow to avoid him
>means to close many doors. Therefore what?

Let me say the answer to this is equivalent to the answer to
the question "Was I coerced into working 40-hour weeks for years
to afford a car?".

>Let us be very careful that the "cure" is not worse than
>the "disease".

No worries; the antitrust action against microsoft amounted
to literally nothing.

>>I long for the day without compulsory financing. Meanwhile I
>>suspect that people are forced to pay taxes for a reason --
>>they otherwise lack the clarity to behave. So it's a choice
>>between freely-chosen chaos and order at the point of a gun.
>>I'm honestly not sure which I'd rather have.
>
> Are you serious? You are scaring me.

I'm serious. What scares you? Would you rather be completely
free and have to defend your family every night from thugs, or
have no choice but to pay tribute to some big thugs and have
some reasonable expectation of safety?

>>What's Freedom? What does it work for?
>
>Well dang, what is not clear here? The idea that each one of us
>makes his own determination of what he will spend his efforts
>creating, and goes about freely marketing the fruits of his
>labors to others.

I've addressed this in a more recent message.

What does it work for? What's your agenda? (Mine is efficiency
of markets.)

>"Scientific methodology" has little relevance here, in my view.

Now you're scaring me.

>I know I'm way behind in responding to other posts of yours;
>will make up as I'm able.

Not that far behind. Anyway, since I'm unemployed I have the
freedom to do this all day long, so my posts have gotten a
little carried away.

-Carl