Israeli Bulldozer Kills U.S. Woman, 23

http://news.yahoo.com/?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030316/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_protester_killed_6

American tax dollars at work.

In a message dated 3/17/03 8:04:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, jdl@...
writes:

> American tax dollars at work.
>

Israel can easily afford its own tanks. It is a tragedy that this woman
died. I heard the Israeli response and it was humane. This same thing can
happen in Iraq where other "human shields" will be in service. A war zone is
a tough place to stand still.

Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

from Debkafile:

IDF regret death of 23-year American activist Rachel Corrie in Gaza Strip
town of Rafah who was run down while blocking a military bulldozer as it
flattened Palestinian sniping positions. A group of peace protesters has been
impeding Israel efforts to clear terrain of firing positions.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

i guess arresting her or removing her by other mean was not a possibility.
no it is always ok to use more force than necessary. no imagination

Afmmjr@... wrote:

> from Debkafile:
>
> IDF regret death of 23-year American activist Rachel Corrie in Gaza Strip
> town of Rafah who was run down while blocking a military bulldozer as it
> flattened Palestinian sniping positions. A group of peace protesters has been
> impeding Israel efforts to clear terrain of firing positions.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
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-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

supposedly she could not be seen by the operator of the bulldozer. i
suppose we'll never know for sure.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
> i guess arresting her or removing her by other mean was not a
possibility.
> no it is always ok to use more force than necessary. no imagination
>
>
> Afmmjr@a... wrote:
>
> > from Debkafile:
> >
> > IDF regret death of 23-year American activist Rachel Corrie in
Gaza Strip
> > town of Rafah who was run down while blocking a military
bulldozer as it
> > flattened Palestinian sniping positions. A group of peace
protesters has been
> > impeding Israel efforts to clear terrain of firing positions.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > Meta Tuning meta-info:
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> >
> > To post to the list, send to
> > metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > You don't have to be a member to post.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> -- -Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
> http://www.anaphoria.com
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wallyesterpaulrus [mailto:wallyesterpaulrus@...]
> Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 7:26 PM
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [metatuning] Re: Israeli Bulldozer Kills U.S. Woman, 23
>
>
> supposedly she could not be seen by the operator of the bulldozer. i
> suppose we'll never know for sure.
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
> wrote:
> > i guess arresting her or removing her by other mean was not a
> possibility.
> > no it is always ok to use more force than necessary. no imagination
> >
> >
> > Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> >
> > > from Debkafile:
> > >
> > > IDF regret death of 23-year American activist Rachel Corrie in
> Gaza Strip
> > > town of Rafah who was run down while blocking a military
> bulldozer as it
> > > flattened Palestinian sniping positions. A group of peace
> protesters has been
> > > impeding Israel efforts to clear terrain of firing positions.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > > Meta Tuning meta-info:
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > > metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> > >
> > > To post to the list, send to
> > > metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > You don't have to be a member to post.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> > -- -Kraig Grady
> > North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
> > http://www.anaphoria.com
> > The Wandering Medicine Show
> > KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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>
>

no i was just plain murder

wallyesterpaulrus wrote:

> supposedly she could not be seen by the operator of the bulldozer. i
> suppose we'll never know for sure.
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
> wrote:
> > i guess arresting her or removing her by other mean was not a
> possibility.
> > no it is always ok to use more force than necessary. no imagination
> >
> >
> > Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> >
> > > from Debkafile:
> > >
> > > IDF regret death of 23-year American activist Rachel Corrie in
> Gaza Strip
> > > town of Rafah who was run down while blocking a military
> bulldozer as it
> > > flattened Palestinian sniping positions. A group of peace
> protesters has been
> > > impeding Israel efforts to clear terrain of firing positions.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > > Meta Tuning meta-info:
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > > metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> > >
> > > To post to the list, send to
> > > metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > You don't have to be a member to post.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> > -- -Kraig Grady
> > North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
> > http://www.anaphoria.com
> > The Wandering Medicine Show
> > KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
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>
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>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
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>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=388278

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kraig Grady [mailto:kraiggrady@...]
> Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 9:18 PM
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: Israeli Bulldozer Kills U.S. Woman, 23
>
>
> no i was just plain murder
>
> wallyesterpaulrus wrote:
>
> > supposedly she could not be seen by the operator of the bulldozer. i
> > suppose we'll never know for sure.
> >
> > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
> > wrote:
> > > i guess arresting her or removing her by other mean was not a
> > possibility.
> > > no it is always ok to use more force than necessary. no imagination
> > >
> > >
> > > Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> > >
> > > > from Debkafile:
> > > >
> > > > IDF regret death of 23-year American activist Rachel Corrie in
> > Gaza Strip
> > > > town of Rafah who was run down while blocking a military
> > bulldozer as it
> > > > flattened Palestinian sniping positions. A group of peace
> > protesters has been
> > > > impeding Israel efforts to clear terrain of firing positions.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Meta Tuning meta-info:
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > > > metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > > Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> > > >
> > > > To post to the list, send to
> > > > metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > > You don't have to be a member to post.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > > -- -Kraig Grady
> > > North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
> > > http://www.anaphoria.com
> > > The Wandering Medicine Show
> > > KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST
> >
> >
> > Meta Tuning meta-info:
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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> >
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> >
> > You don't have to be a member to post.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

Meta Tuning meta-info:

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[I wrote:]
>>American tax dollars at work.

[Johnny wrote:]
>Israel can easily afford its own tanks.

All the world knows of how the United States props up Israel
with billions of dollars ever year (all the world except,
apparently, many U.S. citizens). Sharon was in Washington
recently to demand an extra 10 billion on top of the usual
annual spigot - apparently demolishing the homes of civilians
in militarily occupied territories isn't as inexpensive as it
used to be.

So every U.S. citizen has tax dollars extracted by force to
feed the Israeli war machine, but what if someone wants to
support a Palestinian charity? No can do! They've been
branded terrorist organizations had their assets frozen by
our government. Why? Seems some of the money went to the
widows and orphans of suicide bombers.

I don't condone suicide bombing any more than I condone
Israel's murderous policies, but the families left behind
are not the guilty parties, and they are not deserving of
enforced poverty.

Anyone who does not see the terrible injustice of the
United States supporting Israel in its war of conquest is
no doubt also going to blink in amazement and say, "Why do
they hate us?" next time a terrorist strikes. It must be
our freedoms they hate, right?

JdL

Doesn't the US give an equal amount of money to Egypt? And don't you think
that Jews throughout the world support Israel with money? And don't you
think the costs of defense are enormous? And do you think they could not
afford a tank?

John, you clearly have a point of view, which I sometimes agree with, and
sometime revile. You have clearly chosen sides. Sorry if I don't see it
your way. Palestinians are killing themselves and all chances of peace.
Israelis are defending themselves, even as they get dirtier and meaner. That
may soon be us, unless you can become more balanced. Metapropaganda is a
different list.

Johnny

> John, you clearly have a point of view, which I sometimes agree
> with, and sometime revile.

I must be missing something. Can anyone explain why Israel
is not in violation of international convention for settling
an occupied territory, and why this fact should not result
in the immediate displacement of the settlers in Palestine?

-Carl

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> > John, you clearly have a point of view, which I sometimes agree
> > with, and sometime revile.
>
> I must be missing something. Can anyone explain why Israel
> is not in violation of international convention for settling
> an occupied territory, and why this fact should not result
> in the immediate displacement of the settlers in Palestine?
>
> -Carl

here's one point of view:

http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

>> I must be missing something. Can anyone explain why Israel
>> is not in violation of international convention for settling
>> an occupied territory, and why this fact should not result
>> in the immediate displacement of the settlers in Palestine?
>
> here's one point of view:
>
> http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

Wow. Thanks for this link.

The key part seems to be: 'for some reason, the rest of the
world viewed this as an occupation'.

Why, I wonder?

The other thing I'm not clear on is what percent of the
current israeli population in the disputed territory arrived
at which times.

-Carl

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> Doesn't the US give an equal amount of money to Egypt?

No. The US gives 2/3 to Egypt of what they give to Israel, despite
the proportion differences in population and GDP. Check this out

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

Gabor B.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> >> I must be missing something. Can anyone explain why Israel
> >> is not in violation of international convention for settling
> >> an occupied territory, and why this fact should not result
> >> in the immediate displacement of the settlers in Palestine?
> >
> > here's one point of view:
> >
> > http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html
>
> Wow. Thanks for this link.
>
> The key part seems to be: 'for some reason, the rest of the
> world viewed this as an occupation'.
>
> Why, I wonder?

perhaps because the latter side had about 100 times the population of
the former, making up so much of the "world" in the first place, and
having proportionately more propaganda influence over the rest of the
world.

it also seemed to some that the western world was holding one, very
europeanized, side to a much higher standard of civility and
liberalness than it was holding the other. fairness is a slippery
beast.

> The other thing I'm not clear on is what percent of the
> current israeli population in the disputed territory arrived
> at which times.

are you clear on what percent of the current israeli population lives
in the disputed territory altogether? for the record, johnny and i
have already stated our opposition to settlement.

> > > http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html
> >
> > Wow. Thanks for this link.
> >
> > The key part seems to be: 'for some reason, the rest of the
> > world viewed this as an occupation'.
> >
> > Why, I wonder?
>
> perhaps because the latter side had about 100 times the
> population of the former, making up so much of the "world" in
> the first place, and having proportionately more propaganda
> influence over the rest of the world.

I've never heard of propaganda from a defeated party convincing
people they weren't defeated. But there's a first time for
everything.

Of all the things I've tried to understand, this is definitely
one of the most colluded. It's very hard to find any discourse
on the matter that isn't arguing against raciscm of some kind.
And it's very hard to discuss it without being accused of taking
sides. Such statements are meaningless. Raciscm can't justify
anything. If it did, it would be... raciscm. Which I think we
all agree is bad.

>are you clear on what percent of the current israeli population
>lives in the disputed territory altogether?

Nope. And depending on when they got there, I might not care.

>for the record, johnny and i have already stated our opposition
>to settlement.

I missed that, but if this land was really won in battle and
claimed for Israel, there's nothing wrong with settling it (though
it may not be wise).

Anyway, I'm checking out of the opinion category on this one,
and I *retract* my earlier condemnation of 'Israel in Palestine'.
I'll just sit by and listen for now.

Appreciatively, as always,

-Carl

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:

> on the matter that isn't arguing against raciscm of some kind.
> And it's very hard to discuss it without being accused of taking
> sides. Such statements are meaningless. Raciscm can't justify
> anything. If it did, it would be... raciscm. Which I think we
> all agree is bad.

carl, you spelled rasicm very interestingly, and consistently all
three times above. raciscm?

> I'll just sit by and listen for now.

good idea. it's even a good idea to familiarize yourself with the
most extreme propaganda from both sides, just so you can trace the
ideas as they filter through to the journalistic community at large.
[also a good idea to get a good grasp of history from original
sources -- old newspapers, etc. -- in order to filter out
revisionism.] it's very easy to make any idea sound well-reasoned and
intelligent in the right context -- just supply a few apparently
connected quotes and historical facts (or lies), and someone out
there will follow your reasoning to its logical, or illogical,
conclusion . . .

> > on the matter that isn't arguing against raciscm of some kind.
> > And it's very hard to discuss it without being accused of taking
> > sides. Such statements are meaningless. Raciscm can't justify
> > anything. If it did, it would be... raciscm. Which I think we
> > all agree is bad.
>
> carl, you spelled rasicm very interestingly,

!

> and consistently all three times above. raciscm?

whoops.

-Carl