Reply to Carl L (was: Re: Kurds, Turks, Iraqis, Americans roasting in a pot of oil)

[I wrote:]
>>To Carl L: you strike me as having an irrational fear of monopolies.

[Carl:]
>You strike me as having an irrational fear of anything other than
>'laissez-faire capitalism'.

I will readily admit to being frightened of government thugs with
official uniforms and guns. Whether this is "irrational" or not I
will leave for history to judge.

I own the fruits of my labor, and I claim the right to trade
peacefully with others, without interference. Anything else is
theft and coercion, no matter what pretty language one might dress
it up in. If, by chance, I should happen to invent something, say
a small box that emits beautiful music, I would claim the right to
market that device to anyone, anywhere in the world, at a price
that I would set (subject, of course, to the fact that if I set the
price too high, my sales will suffer).

[Carl:]
>Governments are free-market entities that must survive, like
>everything else.

No they're not. Bill Gates doesn't force sales at the point of a
gun. George Bush does. If this important distinction is not clear
to you, we're wasting our time trying to have a dialog.

[JdL:]
>>Freedom works.

[Carl:]
>"Save the Whales".

Let's see, what point are you making with this clever quip? That
freedom is naive? Then by all means call me naive. Our founding
fathers thought it meant something, but they aren't very highly
regarded by today's sophisticates, are they? Silly dead white
males. Me, I still read the Declaration of Independence and think
it means something profound, something true.

[Carl:]
>I notice the strike-the-root site only accepts articles
>that support certain fundamental doctrines. A very
>distressing sign of political methodology. On the tuning
>tuning list we don't delete posts advocating 12-tET.

LOL! Are you condemning any site that takes a stand? Would,
according to the Carl Lumma school of Perfect Society, everyone
be forced to post a representative sample of every viewpoint?
Now THERE's a Utopia for you; I can't wait!

JdL

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "John A. deLaubenfels" <jdl@a...>
wrote:
> [I wrote:]
> >>To Carl L: you strike me as having an irrational fear of
monopolies.
>
> [Carl:]
> >You strike me as having an irrational fear of anything other than
> >'laissez-faire capitalism'.
>
> I will readily admit to being frightened of government thugs with
> official uniforms and guns. Whether this is "irrational" or not I
> will leave for history to judge.
>
> I own the fruits of my labor, and I claim the right to trade
> peacefully with others, without interference. Anything else is
> theft and coercion, no matter what pretty language one might dress
> it up in. If, by chance, I should happen to invent something, say
> a small box that emits beautiful music, I would claim the right to
> market that device to anyone, anywhere in the world, at a price
> that I would set (subject, of course, to the fact that if I set the
> price too high, my sales will suffer).
<snip>
> JdL

That is all very reasonable. Suppose however, that you were to be
wildly successful with your music box; so successful that you had a
virtual monopoly. Would it be ethical to use your monopoly power to
crush all competition? It can be done, you know.

John Starrett

>I own the fruits of my labor,

And what are the fruits of your labor? Do you own a car?
Did you create it? Who created it? Who has the right to
set its price?

>and I claim the right to trade peacefully with others,
>without interference.

Who gives you that right? Who protects you from pirates?
I say, you are not protected from pirates, but the pirates
have been bred fairly tame.

>>Governments are free-market entities that must survive, like
>>everything else.
>
>No they're not. Bill Gates doesn't force sales at the point
>of a gun.

But it's getting to the point where I couldn't survive without
Bill Gates. Certainly, where I was raised, I couldn't survive
without a car. Was I coerced into working 40-hour weeks for
years to afford one?

>George Bush does.

I long for the day without compulsory financing. Meanwhile I
suspect that people are forced to pay taxes for a reason --
they otherwise lack the clarity to behave. So it's a choice
between freely-chosen chaos and order at the point of a gun.
I'm honestly not sure which I'd rather have.

Of course the 'point of a gun' bit is not really true. If
people *really didn't want to pay taxes*, George Bush wouldn't
have much luck getting them. But most people I know, though
they disagree with many things, still feel their taxes are
for the best. I also know some who don't feel this way, and
who don't pay their taxes. I don't feel this way, but I do
pay my taxes, because the time it would take me to avoid them
is worth more than the cost of the taxes.

>>>Freedom works.
>>
>>"Save the Whales".
>
>Let's see, what point are you making with this clever quip?
>That freedom is naive?

No, sorry; I thought I should have given more detail here.
It's a reference to a bit by Hofstadter. "Save the Whales"
is a statement that's easy to agree (or disagree) with.
But what does it mean? Save the whales from who? For what?
How?

What's Freedom? What does it work for?

Hofstadter (after Dawkins) implies that politics and religion
are more about sensationalism than content, and I'm saying
it outright.

>>I notice the strike-the-root site only accepts articles
>>that support certain fundamental doctrines. A very
>>distressing sign of political methodology. On the tuning
>>tuning list we don't delete posts advocating 12-tET.
>
>LOL! Are you condemning any site that takes a stand? Would,
>according to the Carl Lumma school of Perfect Society, everyone
>be forced to post a representative sample of every viewpoint?
>Now THERE's a Utopia for you; I can't wait!

I simply stated that this is not a scientific methodology, a
fact of which I'm sure you're well aware. Naturally, he has
the obligation to post only what he wants. But if he wants to
restrict scientific discourse, our ability to trust his
publication goes down. Leave the shirt-tearing at home.

-Carl