Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup metatuning articles re. current US

Thanks, Joel. These were very humorous. It made me realize that all the
prominent countries lined up against the U.S. (except Germany) have nuclear
weapons. I wonder if they think they are next after Iraq; North Korea,
France, Russia, China. Al Queda consider Pakistan the first country created
out of Islam, and the responsible ultimate nuclear protector of Islam. Of
course, Musharaf is standing in the way of this nightmare dream.

Also wondering what people think of the UN regarding effect. From my
standpoint, the slaughter of Srebrinica as a UN Protected area, the failure
to aid Rwanda, and a cast of characters (often deserving character parts in
the world, such as Libya), the UN cannot be trusted in life or death issues.

Bush is acting as if he is personally threatened. Fears of possible plans of
hegemony will not interrupt his panic. Taunting him may even make matters
worse (which is what Iraq continues to do). I wonder, did Europeans think
that when the US took control of Japan and West Germany after World War II it
was an exercise in US hegemony? I guess this point is already moot because
the US is already the sole world power, and accordingly, has greater hegemony
than it had before.

For the record, I am afraid of what this new war will bring, partly because
of the ill will of so many, and partly because the US cannot continue to
preempt other Nuclear/WMD powers.

As it stands, the US was attacked on 9/11/01 and it is defending itself. The
ugly other side of this coin is the losing of civil rights for Americans, and
the perpetual hunt for perpetrators (whose list is growing) ad infinitum. I
hope there is never any confusion about which countries are enemies and which
are only jealous of hegemony. If I was a European with influence, and I
could make my views known, I would not taunt the ill: Bush's panic (as well
as others) may constitute illness.

best, Johnny Reinhard

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Joel Rodrigues <jdrodrigues@...>

On Tuesday, March 11, 2003, at 08:33 , metatuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Afmmjr@...
> Subject: Re: articles re. current US - EU situation
>
> Thanks, Joel. These were very humorous.

Hi Johnny, Good grief we could all use a lot more humour these days ! I know *I* am a bit more jumpy & touchy than usual these days. Trying times indeed. Let's hope we all survive it, what ?

> It made me realize that all the
> prominent countries lined up against the U.S. (except Germany) > have nuclear
> weapons.

Sometimes ;-) some "folks" feel like the USA thinks (!?) it is the only nation on the planet who should have them. I don't remember where I read it, but someone did a pretty succinct comparison of Saudi Arabia to Texas - oil, sun, large houses of worship, executions.

> I wonder if they think they are next after Iraq; North Korea,
> France, Russia, China. Al Queda consider Pakistan the first > country created
> out of Islam, and the responsible ultimate nuclear protector of > Islam. Of
> course, Musharaf is standing in the way of this nightmare dream.

I *may* not be the only one, but there are days when I think, 'NATO ? What NATO ?', the EU should seriously consider making contingency plans to defend itself and others against the USA. This is not out of any anti-American feelings, just that GWB and company scare me. They really scare me. I mean, the twit never was clear about what the consequences he would see fit for those who were not "with" him and in his mind "against" him. And this is a man who considers himself to be doing 'God's work'.

> Also wondering what people think of the UN regarding effect. From my
> standpoint, the slaughter of Srebrinica as a UN Protected area, > the failure
> to aid Rwanda, and a cast of characters (often deserving > character parts in
> the world, such as Libya), the UN cannot be trusted in life or > death issues.

Have to agree with you there. I'm not a pacifist, but neither do I advocate violence. But there is a place for it, the best example for me is the recent (unfulfilled) use of the concept of "peace enforcement". I think the USA's firm and hypocritical oppositon to the advent of the International Criminal Court has something to do with said unfulfillment.

> Bush is acting as if he is personally threatened. Fears of > possible plans of
> hegemony will not interrupt his panic. Taunting him may even > make matters
> worse (which is what Iraq continues to do). I wonder, did > Europeans think
> that when the US took control of Japan and West Germany after > World War II it
> was an exercise in US hegemony? I guess this point is already > moot because
> the US is already the sole world power, and accordingly, has > greater hegemony
> than it had before.
>
> For the record, I am afraid of what this new war will bring, > partly because
> of the ill will of so many, and partly because the US cannot > continue to
> preempt other Nuclear/WMD powers.
>

> As it stands, the US was attacked on 9/11/01 and it is > defending itself.

I think the USA (Bush & pals) could stand reminding that other nations too have experienced terrorist attacks both before & after 9/11/2001. The French in particular, as they have been struggling to point out, have a great deal more experience and insight into dealing with Islamic terrorism. As far as Hussein is concerned - I don't think he poses any threat to the USA. Personally I want him gone. Gone. I was firmly *for* action in 1991. But the terrorists the USA should be concerned with are not in Iraq, they are elsewhere in places where American style action is not possible, instead it would take some serious courage & sacrifice in the blood of soldiers.

I look forward to a day (which we may never see in our lifetimes) when nations like Syria, Libya, Iran, Iraq, et al are part of the free world. But I also know that if that day is to come it will take a lot of delicate work from various quarters, and

> The
> ugly other side of this coin is the losing of civil rights for > Americans, and
> the perpetual hunt for perpetrators (whose list is growing) ad > infinitum.

Stories about the abuse of civil rights in America have occasionally filled me with a dreadful awe of the contradictions of the USA. Not all apple pie, peaches, & cream, eh ? The "American dream" may be the biggest myth of them all. Good luck to you all ! I truly mean that.

> I
> hope there is never any confusion about which countries are > enemies and which
> are only jealous of hegemony. If I was a European with > influence, and I
> could make my views known, I would not taunt the ill: Bush's > panic (as well
> as others) may constitute illness.

This is part of my growing fear. Blair has now taken to warning Europeans of the danger of a split in "trans-Atlantic relations" with words that come across as a warning that we should be afraid of America.

Incidentally Blair, Aznar, Barroso, & Berlusconni (spellings ?) do not represent the feelings of the overwhelming majority of Europeans today. I also do not believe they actually support Bush, I think they're afraid too and are trying to keep him as involved with the international community as possible. I mean, think about what GWB would do if tomorrow those four leaders wavered in their claims of support for his position ?

I think it may be time to turn the debate into one where the USA considers what it has to lose by losing so many friends. Like the French chap when asked about 'France's name being mud in Washington' replied, 'So what ? I don't care !' (as best as remember his words).

I don't however think that there is any jealousy involved, certainly not with current issues. Believe me, I've met Europeans who pity Americans, and some who feared Americans, but never one who went so far as to envy Americans.

This is mostly about one person -George W. Bush. Not to make light of Rumsfeld's mouth. People around the world hate & fear Bush. And now there is fear of Bush's America. This is a president who has not done one good thing since he seized power.

I'm pleasantly surprised by the way so many nations & people are willing to stand up and count themselves as being against Bush's plans.

There is some hope for a time when GWB is no longer in power. Ditto Rumsfeld, Rice, Cheney (is he even still alive ? Or is D. Cheney living a secret life as...gasp...S. Hussein !?;), Ashcroft, and Powell.

I think a lot of people are trying their hardest to draw a line and tell Americans, 'We don't "hate America" or Americans, far from it. But we do strongly *dislike* the current "administration", ill-mannered bully that it is.'

This is a remarkable turn of events though isn't it ? Who would have thought that within 18 months of September 11, this would be the situation between most of the rest of the free world and (half of) the USA.

Oh well, enough rambling. And my use of "USA" everywhere above mostly refers to the US administration/regime, not *Americans*. If you've read this far, you probably could have done better things with your time !

> best,
> Johnny Reinhard

Regards,
Joel

🔗Joel Rodrigues <jdrodrigues@...>

🔗Robert Walker <robertwalker@...>

HI there,

I wonder if you all are interested in the way things are seen here in Europe.

I'm not generally well in touch with world affairs actually, but this last
few months been watching the news and so forth a few times while at
my relatives. I remember particularly a television debate with
a few American speakers in the debate.

They all talked about the terrorist threat as the main motive for the
war. Here, no-one thinks of that as significant - well almost
no-one - the opinion polls show maybe a few percent think it is
relevant. Anyone who starts to speak like that tends to get ignored or
even laughed down by everyone else. They were just speaking to a
vacuum, and their arguments were ignored by the rest of the audience, which was
pretty distinguished - high ranking politicians, guest Arab rulers,
academics and so forth - they were just out of the loop of the
rest of the discussion that was going on.

The thing is that apparently the Iraqis haven't been particularly
noted for involvement in terrorist incidents, and the US
have given nothing in the way of evidence of any connection of
the Iraqis with Afghanistan terrorists that stands up to scrutiny,
here.

So almost no-one here buys that. But apparently in America almost
50 percent of the population do, on what seems here like very
little basis.

Interesting to see how effective news and political
emphasis of a point, combined with popular fear, can be
in persuading the population of a country to believe something
strongly. It seems to me that in this particular thing, surely
we are right here, as a result of seeing it with a
more dispassionate eye??

At any rate I feel that the US won't get that far in political discussions
overseas if its representatives keep emphasizing that point.
I know that our prime minister does go along with the US
quite strongly - but he doesn't use that argument
to support his position, and also he is now in rather
a weak position in parliament directly as a result of his
support of US in this matter.

I think this is quite important as it seems to be the main
thing that is driving the US towards a pre-emptive war
on Iraq - and here anyway, the general belief is that
it has no foundation in facts at all. So that may help
one to understand European attitudes.

Here, those who are in support of the war use other
arguments, mainly, fear of what Iraq may do in the
way of conventional war in the future rather than
terrorism, which is considered to be an unlikely thing
for them to engage in on the basis of recent history.

The support for peace, or at least to
wait longer and continue the peace process as far as
it can go, is very strong here. Many large peace marches
in the UK recently. I wonder if that got covered in
the US?

At any rate, maybe it can help to introduce another
perspective to help see things in a fresh light,

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

Robert

articles re. current US - EU situation

🔗Joel Rodrigues <jdrodrigues@...>

🔗Afmmjr@...

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Joel Rodrigues <jdrodrigues@...>

🔗Joel Rodrigues <jdrodrigues@...>

🔗Robert Walker <robertwalker@...>