Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup metatuning from Lev Natochenny [LevNatoFest@...]

-------------------- Begin Forwarded Message --------------------

From: "Federico Steinhaus", INTERNET:steinhaus@...
To: , INTERNET:steinhaus@...
Date: Tue, Mar 4, 2003 9:52:09 AM

RE: I: Mail that speaks for itself...!!!!

Subject: A letter to the french

To: French Embassy in Washington
French Consulate in Los Angeles

Dear French Nation!

Shalom!

As a Jew, I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart. I
would like to thank your President Jacques Chirac for saying that
Israel needs to be convinced that peace is better than war.

Never mind that peace (shalom in Hebrew) is the most common word in
Jewish prayers. That it is endlessly repeated in synagogues, when
greeting or taking leave, when getting up or going to bed.

Never mind that shalom (peace) is mentioned 77 times in the Torah,
and 275 times in the Jewish Bible (The Old Testament of Christians.)

Never mind that of all the world's literature the United Nations
chose to inscribe the words of Israeli Prophet Isaiah on the wall
across from its building in New York. Here are these words, "and they
shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into
pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither
shall they learn war any more."

Never mind that these words are said in every synagogue at nearly
every assembly, and that peace is called "G-d's greatest gift. "
Therefore, the President of the Nation that still venerates general
Napoleon would do better teaching cows how to make milk, or teaching
grass how to grow quietly than teaching Jews (Israelis) that peace is
better than war. Thank you, Jacques Chirac, for informing me about
the encyclopedic extent of your ignorance.

I would like also to thank the unnamed cinema near the Paris Opera
for canceling a screening of the "Harry Potter" film for Jewish kids.
But I am even more grateful to the police of Paris, which has failed
to provide protection for these kids. Apparently Jews of any age are
no longer guaranteed complete equality with the rest of the
population. France was the first country in Europe to offer Jews this
guarantee, and now it is apparently also the first to revoke it.

I congratulate your great Nation for keeping up at the foreskin of
progress, no matter in which direction progress turns. And how can I
not mention the doctorate degree in history, which was offered to
Mustafa Talas (who just happens to be Syria's Foreign Minister) by
the Sorbonne. The Honorable Doctor Talas has written a book on the
Damascus Blood Libel of 1840, in which he claims that Jews kill
Christians to obtain their blood for Passover. A true genius of
historical science is Mustafa Talas, and certainly worthy of
Sorbonne. I am infinitely glad that good old blood libels (perhaps
the most imaginative product of European civilization), nearly
forgotten in the last 50 years, are being revived in French academic
circles.

You French are just wonderful: not only do you keep at the foreskin
of progress, but also revive ancient traditions. (The Damascus Blood
Libel started with disappearance of Father Thomas, a Franciscan
superior. The French consul accused a group of rabbis and other Jews
of ritual murder and extracted a "confession" by torture in which one
of the victims died. Pogroms followed throughout the Middle East. The
consul then requested permission from Mahemet Ali to kill the rest of
his suspects. Others,including sixty children, were arrested and
starved to convince their parents to confess. The charges were
dropped when Sir Moses Montefiore, Adolphe Cremieux and Salomon Munk
intervened on behalf of the Jews.)

I also cannot forget the events of October, 2000, with synagogues
firebombed and burned, Jewish worshipers attacked and stoned. I know
that President Chiraq spoke out against all this, saying that this is
not what he meant when he criticized Israel. Well, as English
playwright Shakespeare said, "Methinks the Lady doth protest too
much."

The President's criticisms of Israel had been (and remain) so
extensive, so common and so unforgiving, that I cannot possibly
believe him. The events of October, 2000 is exactly what he meant.

And if there is any doubt about it, your ambassador to the United
Kingdom Daniel Bernard has cleared it up.

Not only did he call Israel "that shitty little country," (quite a
polite and diplomatic fellow is Daniel Bernard, is he not?) but he
also ante-factum (before the fact) blamed the Jewish people for
starting World War Three. My greatest gift of gratitude, therefore,
goes to him. He has discovered in me (after all, I belong to "those
people") a horrifying quality of causing world wars, a terrible
character flaw about which I hitherto had been completely unaware. He
has also forewarned us of our pre-assigned guilt.

I would like to inform you that I have decided to join the campaign
against France. I will not visit or fly through France and its
colonies of Guadeloupe, Martinique, and St. Pierre. That I will also
boycott all products made in France, including perfume and cosmetics
industry, designer fashion labels, French wines, chocolates, etc.
That I will use my money to buy Israeli products, and travel to
Israel and other countries who still think that Jews are human and
should not live at the mercy of Palestinian terrorists.

I will also contact all people I know and try to get them to do the
same. Let it be a humble manifestation of my gratitude. Sincerely,
David Tsal Shalom!

I WILL FORWARD TO MANY MORE -
PLEASE DO THE SAME

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From: "Federico Steinhaus" <steinhaus@...>
To: <steinhaus@...>
Subject: I: Mail that speaks for itself...!!!!
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:03:04 +0100
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-------------------- End Forwarded Message --------------------

🔗Dante Rosati <dante.interport@...>

Hi Paul-

I'm not sure why you posted this? Do you hate "the french"? Its one thing to
criticise specific individuals for their actions, but isn't it going a bit
too far to lump an entire nation, people, or religion together and condemn
them? Isn't this what that wanker XJScott used to do concerning the Moslems
and also what the Nazis did with the Jews? I mean, would you want people
hating you and me becuase Bush is an asshole, and lumping us together with
him becuase we're "Americans"?

or maybe you were posting it as an example of hate mail...?

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wallyesterpaulrus [mailto:wallyesterpaulrus@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 3:53 PM
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [metatuning] from Lev Natochenny [LevNatoFest@...]
>
>
>
>
> -------------------- Begin Forwarded Message --------------------
>
> From: "Federico Steinhaus", INTERNET:steinhaus@...
> To: , INTERNET:steinhaus@...
> Date: Tue, Mar 4, 2003 9:52:09 AM
>
> RE: I: Mail that speaks for itself...!!!!
>
>
>
>
>
> Subject: A letter to the french
>
> To: French Embassy in Washington
> French Consulate in Los Angeles
>
> Dear French Nation!
>
> Shalom!
>
> As a Jew, I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart. I
> would like to thank your President Jacques Chirac for saying that
> Israel needs to be convinced that peace is better than war.
>
> Never mind that peace (shalom in Hebrew) is the most common word in
> Jewish prayers. That it is endlessly repeated in synagogues, when
> greeting or taking leave, when getting up or going to bed.
>
> Never mind that shalom (peace) is mentioned 77 times in the Torah,
> and 275 times in the Jewish Bible (The Old Testament of Christians.)
>
> Never mind that of all the world's literature the United Nations
> chose to inscribe the words of Israeli Prophet Isaiah on the wall
> across from its building in New York. Here are these words, "and they
> shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into
> pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither
> shall they learn war any more."
>
> Never mind that these words are said in every synagogue at nearly
> every assembly, and that peace is called "G-d's greatest gift. "
> Therefore, the President of the Nation that still venerates general
> Napoleon would do better teaching cows how to make milk, or teaching
> grass how to grow quietly than teaching Jews (Israelis) that peace is
> better than war. Thank you, Jacques Chirac, for informing me about
> the encyclopedic extent of your ignorance.
>
> I would like also to thank the unnamed cinema near the Paris Opera
> for canceling a screening of the "Harry Potter" film for Jewish kids.
> But I am even more grateful to the police of Paris, which has failed
> to provide protection for these kids. Apparently Jews of any age are
> no longer guaranteed complete equality with the rest of the
> population. France was the first country in Europe to offer Jews this
> guarantee, and now it is apparently also the first to revoke it.
>
> I congratulate your great Nation for keeping up at the foreskin of
> progress, no matter in which direction progress turns. And how can I
> not mention the doctorate degree in history, which was offered to
> Mustafa Talas (who just happens to be Syria's Foreign Minister) by
> the Sorbonne. The Honorable Doctor Talas has written a book on the
> Damascus Blood Libel of 1840, in which he claims that Jews kill
> Christians to obtain their blood for Passover. A true genius of
> historical science is Mustafa Talas, and certainly worthy of
> Sorbonne. I am infinitely glad that good old blood libels (perhaps
> the most imaginative product of European civilization), nearly
> forgotten in the last 50 years, are being revived in French academic
> circles.
>
> You French are just wonderful: not only do you keep at the foreskin
> of progress, but also revive ancient traditions. (The Damascus Blood
> Libel started with disappearance of Father Thomas, a Franciscan
> superior. The French consul accused a group of rabbis and other Jews
> of ritual murder and extracted a "confession" by torture in which one
> of the victims died. Pogroms followed throughout the Middle East. The
> consul then requested permission from Mahemet Ali to kill the rest of
> his suspects. Others,including sixty children, were arrested and
> starved to convince their parents to confess. The charges were
> dropped when Sir Moses Montefiore, Adolphe Cremieux and Salomon Munk
> intervened on behalf of the Jews.)
>
> I also cannot forget the events of October, 2000, with synagogues
> firebombed and burned, Jewish worshipers attacked and stoned. I know
> that President Chiraq spoke out against all this, saying that this is
> not what he meant when he criticized Israel. Well, as English
> playwright Shakespeare said, "Methinks the Lady doth protest too
> much."
>
> The President's criticisms of Israel had been (and remain) so
> extensive, so common and so unforgiving, that I cannot possibly
> believe him. The events of October, 2000 is exactly what he meant.
>
> And if there is any doubt about it, your ambassador to the United
> Kingdom Daniel Bernard has cleared it up.
>
> Not only did he call Israel "that shitty little country," (quite a
> polite and diplomatic fellow is Daniel Bernard, is he not?) but he
> also ante-factum (before the fact) blamed the Jewish people for
> starting World War Three. My greatest gift of gratitude, therefore,
> goes to him. He has discovered in me (after all, I belong to "those
> people") a horrifying quality of causing world wars, a terrible
> character flaw about which I hitherto had been completely unaware. He
> has also forewarned us of our pre-assigned guilt.
>
> I would like to inform you that I have decided to join the campaign
> against France. I will not visit or fly through France and its
> colonies of Guadeloupe, Martinique, and St. Pierre. That I will also
> boycott all products made in France, including perfume and cosmetics
> industry, designer fashion labels, French wines, chocolates, etc.
> That I will use my money to buy Israeli products, and travel to
> Israel and other countries who still think that Jews are human and
> should not live at the mercy of Palestinian terrorists.
>
> I will also contact all people I know and try to get them to do the
> same. Let it be a humble manifestation of my gratitude. Sincerely,
> David Tsal Shalom!
>
> I WILL FORWARD TO MANY MORE -
> PLEASE DO THE SAME
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> id h247qH7Q013184
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> 0500
> (EST)
> Received: from oemcomputer (80.181.105.7) by smtp3.cp.tin.it (6.5.033)
> id 3E48CE9F00802EB6; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:52:11 +0100
> From: "Federico Steinhaus" <steinhaus@...>
> To: <steinhaus@...>
> Subject: I: Mail that speaks for itself...!!!!
> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:03:04 +0100
> Message-ID: <MCBBLOCGBGPNPNEBLGFOGEHBCPAA.steinhaus@...>
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> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
> Importance: Normal
>
>
>
> -------------------- End Forwarded Message --------------------
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
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>
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>
>

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@...>

i don't hate "the french". this person is boycotting french travel
and products -- a little different from the tacks xjscott and the
nazis took, isn't it?

this person *is* criticizing specific individuals for their actions.

hate mail??

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati"
<dante.interport@r...> wrote:
> Hi Paul-
>
> I'm not sure why you posted this? Do you hate "the french"? Its one
thing to
> criticise specific individuals for their actions, but isn't it
going a bit
> too far to lump an entire nation, people, or religion together and
condemn
> them? Isn't this what that wanker XJScott used to do concerning the
Moslems
> and also what the Nazis did with the Jews? I mean, would you want
people
> hating you and me becuase Bush is an asshole, and lumping us
together with
> him becuase we're "Americans"?
>
> or maybe you were posting it as an example of hate mail...?
>
> Dante
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: wallyesterpaulrus [mailto:wallyesterpaulrus@y...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 3:53 PM
> > To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [metatuning] from Lev Natochenny [LevNatoFest@c...]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------- Begin Forwarded Message --------------------
> >
> > From: "Federico Steinhaus", INTERNET:steinhaus@t...
> > To: , INTERNET:steinhaus@t...
> > Date: Tue, Mar 4, 2003 9:52:09 AM
> >
> > RE: I: Mail that speaks for itself...!!!!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Subject: A letter to the french
> >
> > To: French Embassy in Washington
> > French Consulate in Los Angeles
> >
> > Dear French Nation!
> >
> > Shalom!
> >
> > As a Jew, I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart. I
> > would like to thank your President Jacques Chirac for saying that
> > Israel needs to be convinced that peace is better than war.
> >
> > Never mind that peace (shalom in Hebrew) is the most common word
in
> > Jewish prayers. That it is endlessly repeated in synagogues, when
> > greeting or taking leave, when getting up or going to bed.
> >
> > Never mind that shalom (peace) is mentioned 77 times in the Torah,
> > and 275 times in the Jewish Bible (The Old Testament of
Christians.)
> >
> > Never mind that of all the world's literature the United Nations
> > chose to inscribe the words of Israeli Prophet Isaiah on the wall
> > across from its building in New York. Here are these words, "and
they
> > shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into
> > pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither
> > shall they learn war any more."
> >
> > Never mind that these words are said in every synagogue at nearly
> > every assembly, and that peace is called "G-d's greatest gift. "
> > Therefore, the President of the Nation that still venerates
general
> > Napoleon would do better teaching cows how to make milk, or
teaching
> > grass how to grow quietly than teaching Jews (Israelis) that
peace is
> > better than war. Thank you, Jacques Chirac, for informing me about
> > the encyclopedic extent of your ignorance.
> >
> > I would like also to thank the unnamed cinema near the Paris Opera
> > for canceling a screening of the "Harry Potter" film for Jewish
kids.
> > But I am even more grateful to the police of Paris, which has
failed
> > to provide protection for these kids. Apparently Jews of any age
are
> > no longer guaranteed complete equality with the rest of the
> > population. France was the first country in Europe to offer Jews
this
> > guarantee, and now it is apparently also the first to revoke it.
> >
> > I congratulate your great Nation for keeping up at the foreskin of
> > progress, no matter in which direction progress turns. And how
can I
> > not mention the doctorate degree in history, which was offered to
> > Mustafa Talas (who just happens to be Syria's Foreign Minister) by
> > the Sorbonne. The Honorable Doctor Talas has written a book on the
> > Damascus Blood Libel of 1840, in which he claims that Jews kill
> > Christians to obtain their blood for Passover. A true genius of
> > historical science is Mustafa Talas, and certainly worthy of
> > Sorbonne. I am infinitely glad that good old blood libels (perhaps
> > the most imaginative product of European civilization), nearly
> > forgotten in the last 50 years, are being revived in French
academic
> > circles.
> >
> > You French are just wonderful: not only do you keep at the
foreskin
> > of progress, but also revive ancient traditions. (The Damascus
Blood
> > Libel started with disappearance of Father Thomas, a Franciscan
> > superior. The French consul accused a group of rabbis and other
Jews
> > of ritual murder and extracted a "confession" by torture in which
one
> > of the victims died. Pogroms followed throughout the Middle East.
The
> > consul then requested permission from Mahemet Ali to kill the
rest of
> > his suspects. Others,including sixty children, were arrested and
> > starved to convince their parents to confess. The charges were
> > dropped when Sir Moses Montefiore, Adolphe Cremieux and Salomon
Munk
> > intervened on behalf of the Jews.)
> >
> > I also cannot forget the events of October, 2000, with synagogues
> > firebombed and burned, Jewish worshipers attacked and stoned. I
know
> > that President Chiraq spoke out against all this, saying that
this is
> > not what he meant when he criticized Israel. Well, as English
> > playwright Shakespeare said, "Methinks the Lady doth protest too
> > much."
> >
> > The President's criticisms of Israel had been (and remain) so
> > extensive, so common and so unforgiving, that I cannot possibly
> > believe him. The events of October, 2000 is exactly what he meant.
> >
> > And if there is any doubt about it, your ambassador to the United
> > Kingdom Daniel Bernard has cleared it up.
> >
> > Not only did he call Israel "that shitty little country," (quite a
> > polite and diplomatic fellow is Daniel Bernard, is he not?) but he
> > also ante-factum (before the fact) blamed the Jewish people for
> > starting World War Three. My greatest gift of gratitude,
therefore,
> > goes to him. He has discovered in me (after all, I belong
to "those
> > people") a horrifying quality of causing world wars, a terrible
> > character flaw about which I hitherto had been completely
unaware. He
> > has also forewarned us of our pre-assigned guilt.
> >
> > I would like to inform you that I have decided to join the
campaign
> > against France. I will not visit or fly through France and its
> > colonies of Guadeloupe, Martinique, and St. Pierre. That I will
also
> > boycott all products made in France, including perfume and
cosmetics
> > industry, designer fashion labels, French wines, chocolates, etc.
> > That I will use my money to buy Israeli products, and travel to
> > Israel and other countries who still think that Jews are human and
> > should not live at the mercy of Palestinian terrorists.
> >
> > I will also contact all people I know and try to get them to do
the
> > same. Let it be a humble manifestation of my gratitude. Sincerely,
> > David Tsal Shalom!
> >
> > I WILL FORWARD TO MANY MORE -
> > PLEASE DO THE SAME
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------- Internet Header --------------------------
----
> > --
> > Sender: steinhaus@t...
> > Received: from smtp3.cp.tin.it (vsmtp3.tin.it [212.216.176.223])
> > by siaag2ae.compuserve.com (8.12.8/8.12.7/SUN-2.4) with
ESMTP
> > id h247qH7Q013184
> > for <levnatofest@c...>; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 02:52:17 -
> > 0500
> > (EST)
> > Received: from oemcomputer (80.181.105.7) by smtp3.cp.tin.it
(6.5.033)
> > id 3E48CE9F00802EB6; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:52:11 +0100
> > From: "Federico Steinhaus" <steinhaus@t...>
> > To: <steinhaus@t...>
> > Subject: I: Mail that speaks for itself...!!!!
> > Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:03:04 +0100
> > Message-ID: <MCBBLOCGBGPNPNEBLGFOGEHBCPAA.steinhaus@t...>
> > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain;
> > charset="Windows-1252"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
> > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0)
> > X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
> > Importance: Normal
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------- End Forwarded Message --------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Meta Tuning meta-info:
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> >
> > To post to the list, send to
> > metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > You don't have to be a member to post.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

🔗Dante Rosati <dante.interport@...>

Paul, its addressed (sarcastically) to "Dear French nation" and begins,
again sarcastically "As a Jew, I would like to thank you from the bottom of
my heart." So, its not saying "Dear French nation, your leader sucks", but
rather accusing the whole country. that is hating "the french". the tone is
hatred, not protest.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wallyesterpaulrus [mailto:wallyesterpaulrus@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:49 PM
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [metatuning] Re: from Lev Natochenny
> [LevNatoFest@...]
>
>
> i don't hate "the french". this person is boycotting french travel
> and products -- a little different from the tacks xjscott and the
> nazis took, isn't it?
>
> this person *is* criticizing specific individuals for their actions.
>
> hate mail??
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati"
> <dante.interport@r...> wrote:
> > Hi Paul-
> >
> > I'm not sure why you posted this? Do you hate "the french"? Its one
> thing to
> > criticise specific individuals for their actions, but isn't it
> going a bit
> > too far to lump an entire nation, people, or religion together and
> condemn
> > them? Isn't this what that wanker XJScott used to do concerning the
> Moslems
> > and also what the Nazis did with the Jews? I mean, would you want
> people
> > hating you and me becuase Bush is an asshole, and lumping us
> together with
> > him becuase we're "Americans"?
> >
> > or maybe you were posting it as an example of hate mail...?
> >
> > Dante
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: wallyesterpaulrus [mailto:wallyesterpaulrus@y...]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 3:53 PM
> > > To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [metatuning] from Lev Natochenny [LevNatoFest@c...]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -------------------- Begin Forwarded Message --------------------
> > >
> > > From: "Federico Steinhaus", INTERNET:steinhaus@t...
> > > To: , INTERNET:steinhaus@t...
> > > Date: Tue, Mar 4, 2003 9:52:09 AM
> > >
> > > RE: I: Mail that speaks for itself...!!!!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Subject: A letter to the french
> > >
> > > To: French Embassy in Washington
> > > French Consulate in Los Angeles
> > >
> > > Dear French Nation!
> > >
> > > Shalom!
> > >
> > > As a Jew, I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart. I
> > > would like to thank your President Jacques Chirac for saying that
> > > Israel needs to be convinced that peace is better than war.
> > >
> > > Never mind that peace (shalom in Hebrew) is the most common word
> in
> > > Jewish prayers. That it is endlessly repeated in synagogues, when
> > > greeting or taking leave, when getting up or going to bed.
> > >
> > > Never mind that shalom (peace) is mentioned 77 times in the Torah,
> > > and 275 times in the Jewish Bible (The Old Testament of
> Christians.)
> > >
> > > Never mind that of all the world's literature the United Nations
> > > chose to inscribe the words of Israeli Prophet Isaiah on the wall
> > > across from its building in New York. Here are these words, "and
> they
> > > shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into
> > > pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
> neither
> > > shall they learn war any more."
> > >
> > > Never mind that these words are said in every synagogue at nearly
> > > every assembly, and that peace is called "G-d's greatest gift. "
> > > Therefore, the President of the Nation that still venerates
> general
> > > Napoleon would do better teaching cows how to make milk, or
> teaching
> > > grass how to grow quietly than teaching Jews (Israelis) that
> peace is
> > > better than war. Thank you, Jacques Chirac, for informing me about
> > > the encyclopedic extent of your ignorance.
> > >
> > > I would like also to thank the unnamed cinema near the Paris Opera
> > > for canceling a screening of the "Harry Potter" film for Jewish
> kids.
> > > But I am even more grateful to the police of Paris, which has
> failed
> > > to provide protection for these kids. Apparently Jews of any age
> are
> > > no longer guaranteed complete equality with the rest of the
> > > population. France was the first country in Europe to offer Jews
> this
> > > guarantee, and now it is apparently also the first to revoke it.
> > >
> > > I congratulate your great Nation for keeping up at the foreskin of
> > > progress, no matter in which direction progress turns. And how
> can I
> > > not mention the doctorate degree in history, which was offered to
> > > Mustafa Talas (who just happens to be Syria's Foreign Minister) by
> > > the Sorbonne. The Honorable Doctor Talas has written a book on the
> > > Damascus Blood Libel of 1840, in which he claims that Jews kill
> > > Christians to obtain their blood for Passover. A true genius of
> > > historical science is Mustafa Talas, and certainly worthy of
> > > Sorbonne. I am infinitely glad that good old blood libels (perhaps
> > > the most imaginative product of European civilization), nearly
> > > forgotten in the last 50 years, are being revived in French
> academic
> > > circles.
> > >
> > > You French are just wonderful: not only do you keep at the
> foreskin
> > > of progress, but also revive ancient traditions. (The Damascus
> Blood
> > > Libel started with disappearance of Father Thomas, a Franciscan
> > > superior. The French consul accused a group of rabbis and other
> Jews
> > > of ritual murder and extracted a "confession" by torture in which
> one
> > > of the victims died. Pogroms followed throughout the Middle East.
> The
> > > consul then requested permission from Mahemet Ali to kill the
> rest of
> > > his suspects. Others,including sixty children, were arrested and
> > > starved to convince their parents to confess. The charges were
> > > dropped when Sir Moses Montefiore, Adolphe Cremieux and Salomon
> Munk
> > > intervened on behalf of the Jews.)
> > >
> > > I also cannot forget the events of October, 2000, with synagogues
> > > firebombed and burned, Jewish worshipers attacked and stoned. I
> know
> > > that President Chiraq spoke out against all this, saying that
> this is
> > > not what he meant when he criticized Israel. Well, as English
> > > playwright Shakespeare said, "Methinks the Lady doth protest too
> > > much."
> > >
> > > The President's criticisms of Israel had been (and remain) so
> > > extensive, so common and so unforgiving, that I cannot possibly
> > > believe him. The events of October, 2000 is exactly what he meant.
> > >
> > > And if there is any doubt about it, your ambassador to the United
> > > Kingdom Daniel Bernard has cleared it up.
> > >
> > > Not only did he call Israel "that shitty little country," (quite a
> > > polite and diplomatic fellow is Daniel Bernard, is he not?) but he
> > > also ante-factum (before the fact) blamed the Jewish people for
> > > starting World War Three. My greatest gift of gratitude,
> therefore,
> > > goes to him. He has discovered in me (after all, I belong
> to "those
> > > people") a horrifying quality of causing world wars, a terrible
> > > character flaw about which I hitherto had been completely
> unaware. He
> > > has also forewarned us of our pre-assigned guilt.
> > >
> > > I would like to inform you that I have decided to join the
> campaign
> > > against France. I will not visit or fly through France and its
> > > colonies of Guadeloupe, Martinique, and St. Pierre. That I will
> also
> > > boycott all products made in France, including perfume and
> cosmetics
> > > industry, designer fashion labels, French wines, chocolates, etc.
> > > That I will use my money to buy Israeli products, and travel to
> > > Israel and other countries who still think that Jews are human and
> > > should not live at the mercy of Palestinian terrorists.
> > >
> > > I will also contact all people I know and try to get them to do
> the
> > > same. Let it be a humble manifestation of my gratitude. Sincerely,
> > > David Tsal Shalom!
> > >
> > > I WILL FORWARD TO MANY MORE -
> > > PLEASE DO THE SAME
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------- Internet Header --------------------------
> ----
> > > --
> > > Sender: steinhaus@t...
> > > Received: from smtp3.cp.tin.it (vsmtp3.tin.it [212.216.176.223])
> > > by siaag2ae.compuserve.com (8.12.8/8.12.7/SUN-2.4) with
> ESMTP
> > > id h247qH7Q013184
> > > for <levnatofest@c...>; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 02:52:17 -
> > > 0500
> > > (EST)
> > > Received: from oemcomputer (80.181.105.7) by smtp3.cp.tin.it
> (6.5.033)
> > > id 3E48CE9F00802EB6; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:52:11 +0100
> > > From: "Federico Steinhaus" <steinhaus@t...>
> > > To: <steinhaus@t...>
> > > Subject: I: Mail that speaks for itself...!!!!
> > > Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:03:04 +0100
> > > Message-ID: <MCBBLOCGBGPNPNEBLGFOGEHBCPAA.steinhaus@t...>
> > > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > > Content-Type: text/plain;
> > > charset="Windows-1252"
> > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > > X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
> > > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> > > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0)
> > > X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
> > > Importance: Normal
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -------------------- End Forwarded Message --------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Meta Tuning meta-info:
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > > metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> > >
> > > To post to the list, send to
> > > metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > You don't have to be a member to post.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@...>

read on. it's addressing the french leadership (i.e., those who
represent the french nation), not the french people. there is
absolutely no hatred toward the french people expressed in this
letter.

every time you read a newspaper article it says washington did this,
baghdad did that. if i were a citizen of washington d.c. or baghdad,
should i be offended? no, that's just how people talk.

clearly a different french leadership, one that takes a different
direction, would make france just fine in this person's eyes. similar
to how i and many europeans feel about the united states.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati"
<dante.interport@r...> wrote:
> Paul, its addressed (sarcastically) to "Dear French nation" and
begins,
> again sarcastically "As a Jew, I would like to thank you from the
bottom of
> my heart." So, its not saying "Dear French nation, your leader
sucks", but
> rather accusing the whole country. that is hating "the french". the
tone is
> hatred, not protest.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: wallyesterpaulrus [mailto:wallyesterpaulrus@y...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:49 PM
> > To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [metatuning] Re: from Lev Natochenny
> > [LevNatoFest@c...]
> >
> >
> > i don't hate "the french". this person is boycotting french travel
> > and products -- a little different from the tacks xjscott and the
> > nazis took, isn't it?
> >
> > this person *is* criticizing specific individuals for their
actions.
> >
> > hate mail??
> >
> > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati"
> > <dante.interport@r...> wrote:
> > > Hi Paul-
> > >
> > > I'm not sure why you posted this? Do you hate "the french"? Its
one
> > thing to
> > > criticise specific individuals for their actions, but isn't it
> > going a bit
> > > too far to lump an entire nation, people, or religion together
and
> > condemn
> > > them? Isn't this what that wanker XJScott used to do concerning
the
> > Moslems
> > > and also what the Nazis did with the Jews? I mean, would you
want
> > people
> > > hating you and me becuase Bush is an asshole, and lumping us
> > together with
> > > him becuase we're "Americans"?
> > >
> > > or maybe you were posting it as an example of hate mail...?
> > >
> > > Dante
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: wallyesterpaulrus [mailto:wallyesterpaulrus@y...]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 3:53 PM
> > > > To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [metatuning] from Lev Natochenny [LevNatoFest@c...]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -------------------- Begin Forwarded Message -----------------
---
> > > >
> > > > From: "Federico Steinhaus", INTERNET:steinhaus@t...
> > > > To: , INTERNET:steinhaus@t...
> > > > Date: Tue, Mar 4, 2003 9:52:09 AM
> > > >
> > > > RE: I: Mail that speaks for itself...!!!!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Subject: A letter to the french
> > > >
> > > > To: French Embassy in Washington
> > > > French Consulate in Los Angeles
> > > >
> > > > Dear French Nation!
> > > >
> > > > Shalom!
> > > >
> > > > As a Jew, I would like to thank you from the bottom of my
heart. I
> > > > would like to thank your President Jacques Chirac for saying
that
> > > > Israel needs to be convinced that peace is better than war.
> > > >
> > > > Never mind that peace (shalom in Hebrew) is the most common
word
> > in
> > > > Jewish prayers. That it is endlessly repeated in synagogues,
when
> > > > greeting or taking leave, when getting up or going to bed.
> > > >
> > > > Never mind that shalom (peace) is mentioned 77 times in the
Torah,
> > > > and 275 times in the Jewish Bible (The Old Testament of
> > Christians.)
> > > >
> > > > Never mind that of all the world's literature the United
Nations
> > > > chose to inscribe the words of Israeli Prophet Isaiah on the
wall
> > > > across from its building in New York. Here are these
words, "and
> > they
> > > > shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into
> > > > pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
> > neither
> > > > shall they learn war any more."
> > > >
> > > > Never mind that these words are said in every synagogue at
nearly
> > > > every assembly, and that peace is called "G-d's greatest
gift. "
> > > > Therefore, the President of the Nation that still venerates
> > general
> > > > Napoleon would do better teaching cows how to make milk, or
> > teaching
> > > > grass how to grow quietly than teaching Jews (Israelis) that
> > peace is
> > > > better than war. Thank you, Jacques Chirac, for informing me
about
> > > > the encyclopedic extent of your ignorance.
> > > >
> > > > I would like also to thank the unnamed cinema near the Paris
Opera
> > > > for canceling a screening of the "Harry Potter" film for
Jewish
> > kids.
> > > > But I am even more grateful to the police of Paris, which has
> > failed
> > > > to provide protection for these kids. Apparently Jews of any
age
> > are
> > > > no longer guaranteed complete equality with the rest of the
> > > > population. France was the first country in Europe to offer
Jews
> > this
> > > > guarantee, and now it is apparently also the first to revoke
it.
> > > >
> > > > I congratulate your great Nation for keeping up at the
foreskin of
> > > > progress, no matter in which direction progress turns. And how
> > can I
> > > > not mention the doctorate degree in history, which was
offered to
> > > > Mustafa Talas (who just happens to be Syria's Foreign
Minister) by
> > > > the Sorbonne. The Honorable Doctor Talas has written a book
on the
> > > > Damascus Blood Libel of 1840, in which he claims that Jews
kill
> > > > Christians to obtain their blood for Passover. A true genius
of
> > > > historical science is Mustafa Talas, and certainly worthy of
> > > > Sorbonne. I am infinitely glad that good old blood libels
(perhaps
> > > > the most imaginative product of European civilization), nearly
> > > > forgotten in the last 50 years, are being revived in French
> > academic
> > > > circles.
> > > >
> > > > You French are just wonderful: not only do you keep at the
> > foreskin
> > > > of progress, but also revive ancient traditions. (The Damascus
> > Blood
> > > > Libel started with disappearance of Father Thomas, a
Franciscan
> > > > superior. The French consul accused a group of rabbis and
other
> > Jews
> > > > of ritual murder and extracted a "confession" by torture in
which
> > one
> > > > of the victims died. Pogroms followed throughout the Middle
East.
> > The
> > > > consul then requested permission from Mahemet Ali to kill the
> > rest of
> > > > his suspects. Others,including sixty children, were arrested
and
> > > > starved to convince their parents to confess. The charges were
> > > > dropped when Sir Moses Montefiore, Adolphe Cremieux and
Salomon
> > Munk
> > > > intervened on behalf of the Jews.)
> > > >
> > > > I also cannot forget the events of October, 2000, with
synagogues
> > > > firebombed and burned, Jewish worshipers attacked and stoned.
I
> > know
> > > > that President Chiraq spoke out against all this, saying that
> > this is
> > > > not what he meant when he criticized Israel. Well, as English
> > > > playwright Shakespeare said, "Methinks the Lady doth protest
too
> > > > much."
> > > >
> > > > The President's criticisms of Israel had been (and remain) so
> > > > extensive, so common and so unforgiving, that I cannot
possibly
> > > > believe him. The events of October, 2000 is exactly what he
meant.
> > > >
> > > > And if there is any doubt about it, your ambassador to the
United
> > > > Kingdom Daniel Bernard has cleared it up.
> > > >
> > > > Not only did he call Israel "that shitty little country,"
(quite a
> > > > polite and diplomatic fellow is Daniel Bernard, is he not?)
but he
> > > > also ante-factum (before the fact) blamed the Jewish people
for
> > > > starting World War Three. My greatest gift of gratitude,
> > therefore,
> > > > goes to him. He has discovered in me (after all, I belong
> > to "those
> > > > people") a horrifying quality of causing world wars, a
terrible
> > > > character flaw about which I hitherto had been completely
> > unaware. He
> > > > has also forewarned us of our pre-assigned guilt.
> > > >
> > > > I would like to inform you that I have decided to join the
> > campaign
> > > > against France. I will not visit or fly through France and its
> > > > colonies of Guadeloupe, Martinique, and St. Pierre. That I
will
> > also
> > > > boycott all products made in France, including perfume and
> > cosmetics
> > > > industry, designer fashion labels, French wines, chocolates,
etc.
> > > > That I will use my money to buy Israeli products, and travel
to
> > > > Israel and other countries who still think that Jews are
human and
> > > > should not live at the mercy of Palestinian terrorists.
> > > >
> > > > I will also contact all people I know and try to get them to
do
> > the
> > > > same. Let it be a humble manifestation of my gratitude.
Sincerely,
> > > > David Tsal Shalom!
> > > >
> > > > I WILL FORWARD TO MANY MORE -
> > > > PLEASE DO THE SAME
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------- Internet Header ----------------------
----
> > ----
> > > > --
> > > > Sender: steinhaus@t...
> > > > Received: from smtp3.cp.tin.it (vsmtp3.tin.it
[212.216.176.223])
> > > > by siaag2ae.compuserve.com (8.12.8/8.12.7/SUN-2.4)
with
> > ESMTP
> > > > id h247qH7Q013184
> > > > for <levnatofest@c...>; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 02:52:17 -
> > > > 0500
> > > > (EST)
> > > > Received: from oemcomputer (80.181.105.7) by smtp3.cp.tin.it
> > (6.5.033)
> > > > id 3E48CE9F00802EB6; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:52:11 +0100
> > > > From: "Federico Steinhaus" <steinhaus@t...>
> > > > To: <steinhaus@t...>
> > > > Subject: I: Mail that speaks for itself...!!!!
> > > > Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:03:04 +0100
> > > > Message-ID: <MCBBLOCGBGPNPNEBLGFOGEHBCPAA.steinhaus@t...>
> > > > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain;
> > > > charset="Windows-1252"
> > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > > > X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
> > > > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> > > > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0)
> > > > X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
> > > > Importance: Normal
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -------------------- End Forwarded Message -------------------
-
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Meta Tuning meta-info:
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > > > metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > > Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> > > >
> > > > To post to the list, send to
> > > > metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > > You don't have to be a member to post.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> > Meta Tuning meta-info:
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
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> >
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> >
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> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@...>

🔗Afmmjr@...

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Afmmjr@...

🔗Dante Rosati <dante.interport@...>

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@...>

there is not a single accusation in the letter directed to the entire
country of france. each incident mentioned is specific, and was
instigated by specific instigators of hatred. why don't you get
outraged about *this* hatred at all, but the fact that this letter-
writer said "the french nation" in one (and only one) place offends
you so? turn this letter around and direct it toward "the american
nation" and you'd probably be sending it out yourself! (with the
understanding that the *representatives* of the american nation were
the intended target) and i'd be right behind you!

dante, do me a favor and actually *read* the letter (not just the
first line). inform yourself about what is happening in the world
today, that might be a historical cycle coming around again. are we
doomed to repeat history?

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati"
<dante.interport@r...> wrote:
> what I find dangerous is lumping an entire population together and
accusing
> them of something. If you can show that every single frenchman is
> persecuting Jews, Moslems, plumbers, whatever, then maybe you can
write a
> letter to "the french" accusing them. Again, this letter is not an
appeal to
> the french people beseeching them to oppose their government or
> hate-elements within their society, it is a hate mail directed at
the entire
> country. This is what I find objectionable.
>
> Dante
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Afmmjr@a... [mailto:Afmmjr@a...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 6:18 PM
> > To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: from Lev Natochenny
> > [LevNatoFest@c...]
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 3/5/03 5:57:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > dante.interport@r... writes:
> >
> >
> > > ". the tone is
> > > hatred, not protest.
> > >
> >
> > I find the tone to be desperation. France is losing half of its
Jewish
> > population this year due terrorism against Jews in France. Much
> > of this is
> > perceived as acceptable to the French authorities. I don't see
> > how you could
> > call this hate mail. And I'm surprised, Dante, that you equate
this with
> > Nazi propaganda against Jews preceding the holocaust.
> >
> > Johnny Reinhard
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > Meta Tuning meta-info:
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> >
> > To post to the list, send to
> > metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > You don't have to be a member to post.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

🔗Dante Rosati <dante.interport@...>

Hi Paul-

I have "actually read the letter", thank you. Have you? Here's the first
thing it says:

"Subject: A letter to the french

To: French Embassy in Washington
French Consulate in Los Angeles

Dear French Nation!

Shalom!

As a Jew, I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart."

Why is the author "thanking" the "French Nation"? Of course, he is not, it
is sarcasm. The rest of the letter lists various comments and actions of
hatred directed against Jews in France and criticsims of Israel. All
reprehensibile to be sure. I denounce them too. BUT I DENOUNCE THE ACTIONS
AND THE PERPETRATORS OF THE ACTIONS, NOT THE ENTIRE FRENCH NATION! (sorry
for shouting, but I cannot understand why this point is not getting
through). You say "there is not a single accusation in the letter directed
to the entire country of france." and "the fact that this letter-writer said
"the french nation" in one (and only one) place". The following two quotes
from the body of the letter suggest that perhaps >you< have not read it
carefully:

"I congratulate your great Nation for keeping up at the foreskin of
progress, no matter in which direction progress turns."

"You French are just wonderful: not only do you keep at the foreskin
of progress, but also revive ancient traditions."

Whats the difference between saying "you French", followed by an insult, and
saying "you Jews", or "you Yankees", etc, and tarring and feathering a whole
group of people due to the actions of only some memebers of the group? Do
you actually believe that all or even a majority of people in France condone
the incidents listed in the letter? I really doubt it.

then you say:

> turn this letter around and direct it toward "the american
> nation" and you'd probably be sending it out yourself! (with the
> understanding that the *representatives* of the american nation were
> the intended target) and i'd be right behind you!

Exactly- only this letter is not insulting and accusing "the
representatives" of the French nation, but rather the "people of france",
"you French".

Is this nit picking? NO!!!! There is all the difference in the world between
calling individuals on their actions and condemning hatred and violence on
the one hand, and the kind of blanket accusations found here. It is when
races, religions, and nations are objectified like this that all the things
that the letter is complaining about happen in the first place!!! Isn't it
clear that the author of this letter is objectifying "the French" in exactly
the same way that the assholes who perpetrated the incidents mentioned
objectify "the Jews"??? Admittedly, he is only advocating boycott, not
violence. But doesn't he accuse Chirac of being indirectly responsible for
violence becuase of his >words<? So why couldn't someone read this letter
and, being convinced by it, hate "the French" and go out and commit a random
act of violence against the first "Frenchman" they see?

I hope I have explained my point more clearly this time. I cannot think of
how to be more clear. "You Bostonians" are so stubborn ever since you tossed
all that tea in the harbor. :-)

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wallyesterpaulrus [mailto:wallyesterpaulrus@...]
> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 6:45 AM
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [metatuning] Re: from Lev Natochenny
> [LevNatoFest@...]
>
>
> there is not a single accusation in the letter directed to the entire
> country of france. each incident mentioned is specific, and was
> instigated by specific instigators of hatred. why don't you get
> outraged about *this* hatred at all, but the fact that this letter-
> writer said "the french nation" in one (and only one) place offends
> you so? turn this letter around and direct it toward "the american
> nation" and you'd probably be sending it out yourself! (with the
> understanding that the *representatives* of the american nation were
> the intended target) and i'd be right behind you!
>
> dante, do me a favor and actually *read* the letter (not just the
> first line). inform yourself about what is happening in the world
> today, that might be a historical cycle coming around again. are we
> doomed to repeat history?
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati"
> <dante.interport@r...> wrote:
> > what I find dangerous is lumping an entire population together and
> accusing
> > them of something. If you can show that every single frenchman is
> > persecuting Jews, Moslems, plumbers, whatever, then maybe you can
> write a
> > letter to "the french" accusing them. Again, this letter is not an
> appeal to
> > the french people beseeching them to oppose their government or
> > hate-elements within their society, it is a hate mail directed at
> the entire
> > country. This is what I find objectionable.
> >
> > Dante
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Afmmjr@a... [mailto:Afmmjr@a...]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 6:18 PM
> > > To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: from Lev Natochenny
> > > [LevNatoFest@c...]
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 3/5/03 5:57:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > > dante.interport@r... writes:
> > >
> > >
> > > > ". the tone is
> > > > hatred, not protest.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I find the tone to be desperation. France is losing half of its
> Jewish
> > > population this year due terrorism against Jews in France. Much
> > > of this is
> > > perceived as acceptable to the French authorities. I don't see
> > > how you could
> > > call this hate mail. And I'm surprised, Dante, that you equate
> this with
> > > Nazi propaganda against Jews preceding the holocaust.
> > >
> > > Johnny Reinhard
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > > Meta Tuning meta-info:
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > > metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> > >
> > > To post to the list, send to
> > > metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > You don't have to be a member to post.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
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🔗Afmmjr@...

🔗Dante Rosati <dante.interport@...>

> Isn't that the logic that blames movies and novels for causing a crazy to
> commit a random act of violence. And no one is suggesting
> stopping movies
> and novels.

This is unbelievable. Yes, any movie or novel (or letter) that advocates
racism or hatred is capable of influencing stupid and/or impressionable
people into acts of violence. Where did anti-semitism come from if not from
bullshit publications (Protocols of the the Elders of Zion, Mein Kampf)
accusing "the jews" of being this or that, as well as from stupid parents
repeating what their stupid parents had taught them about a whole group of
people called "the jews" being this or that?

> I think we are talking past each other. If you perceived
> yourself persecuted
> in your country and the government was turning a blind eye to your
> persecution, it would only be natural to blame the government and its
> leadership for the negative turn of events.

Agreed.

>Blaming the French people is
> only a way to have the French people speak up rather than remain silent.

No, blaming "the French people" is only a way of making yourself no better
than that which you are objecting to. Jeez, even the
so-right-wing-that-they're-falling-off-the-scale current US administration
doesn't blame "The Afghanis" for either 9/11 or the Taliban, nor do they
blame "the Iraqi people" for Saddam (they should be blaming past US
government policy for these things, but thats a different can of worms).

> Dante, would you suggest that Germans had no responsibility for
> World War II?

I suggest that evil individuals, acting collectively, as well as stupid
individuals ready to believe authority, were responsible for WWII as well as
all violence and evil. I suggest that to speak of and blame "the Germans"
"the French" or "the Jews" is an objectification of an abstraction that all
too often in history has served the ideology of evil. Frankly, I cant
believe that some find this concept objectionable.

Dante

🔗Afmmjr@...

In a message dated 3/6/03 5:44:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
dante.interport@... writes:

> Where did anti-semitism come from if not from
> bullshit publications (Protocols of the the Elders of Zion, Mein Kampf)
> accusing "the jews" of being this or that, as well as from stupid parents
> repeating what their stupid parents had taught them about a whole group of
> people called "the jews" being this or that?
>

Dante, the above is not true. These publications were only the most recent
symptoms of anti-semitism. It has been a part of German history for over a
thousand years.

>
> >Blaming the French people is
> > only a way to have the French people speak up rather than remain silent.
>
> No, blaming "the French people" is only a way of making yourself no better
> than that which you are objecting to.

Blame and an accusation of inaction are not the same thing. But I'm sure the
writer wasn't concerned with those niceties since he seemed more in pain. If
you caught the constant mention of "foreskins" you must note that he feels
persecuted by non-Jews.

Jeez, even the

Do you use "Jeez" as short for "Jesus"?
>
> so-right-wing-that-they're-falling-off-the-scale current US administration
> doesn't blame "The Afghanis" for either 9/11 or the Taliban, nor do they
> blame "the Iraqi people" for Saddam (they should be blaming past US
> government policy for these things, but thats a different can of worms).
>

Blame is for children or juries. Are the French governors turning a blind
eye to their Jewish population in preference to their more numerous Islamic
population? Well, it does not look good.

>
> > Dante, would you suggest that Germans had no responsibility for
> > World War II?
>
> I suggest that evil individuals, acting collectively, as well as stupid
> individuals ready to believe authority, were responsible for WWII as well
> as
> all violence and evil. I suggest that to speak of and blame "the Germans"
> "the French" or "the Jews" is an objectification of an abstraction that all
> too often in history has served the ideology of evil. Frankly, I cant
> believe that some find this concept objectionable.
>
> Dante

You have taken a strong, passionate response to an odd letter that was
posted. Somehow I understand the original writer more than your abstract
argument about not blaming the innocent. These are tough times and emotions
are running high. But I do not think that the French are suffering in any
way from the individual's letter.

For the record, I have been happily championing French music, as has all of
NYC. Surely, these composers have nothing to do with anti-Semitism in
France, and we can agree on that...unless Paul uncovers something new.... ;)

Johnny

>
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>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Joel Rodrigues <jdrodrigues@...>

On Friday, March 7, 2003, at 06:52 , metatuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> "Dante Rosati" <dante.interport@...>
> Subject: RE: Re: from Lev Natochenny [LevNatoFest@...]
>
>> Isn't that the logic that blames movies and novels for causing >> a crazy to
>> commit a random act of violence. And no one is suggesting
>> stopping movies
>> and novels.
>
> This is unbelievable. Yes, any movie or novel (or letter) that > advocates
> racism or hatred is capable of influencing stupid and/or impressionable
> people into acts of violence. Where did anti-semitism come from > if not from
> bullshit publications (Protocols of the the Elders of Zion, Mein Kampf)
> accusing "the jews" of being this or that, as well as from > stupid parents
> repeating what their stupid parents had taught them about a > whole group of
> people called "the jews" being this or that?
>
>> I think we are talking past each other. If you perceived
>> yourself persecuted
>> in your country and the government was turning a blind eye to your
>> persecution, it would only be natural to blame the government and its
>> leadership for the negative turn of events.
>
> Agreed.
>
>> Blaming the French people is
>> only a way to have the French people speak up rather than >> remain silent.
>
> No, blaming "the French people" is only a way of making > yourself no better
> than that which you are objecting to. Jeez, even the
> so-right-wing-that-they're-falling-off-the-scale current US > administration
> doesn't blame "The Afghanis" for either 9/11 or the Taliban, > nor do they
> blame "the Iraqi people" for Saddam (they should be blaming past US
> government policy for these things, but thats a different can > of worms).
>
>
>> Dante, would you suggest that Germans had no responsibility for
>> World War II?
>
> I suggest that evil individuals, acting collectively, as well as stupid
> individuals ready to believe authority, were responsible for > WWII as well as
> all violence and evil. I suggest that to speak of and blame > "the Germans"
> "the French" or "the Jews" is an objectification of an > abstraction that all
> too often in history has served the ideology of evil. Frankly, I cant
> believe that some find this concept objectionable.
>
> Dante

Hey Dante, thanks for taking the trouble to say all this. I rarely have the patience or eloquence. Well said.

- Joel