blasphemy

One thing I don't get is the minority of Muslims who say they don't agree
with the mainstream view that all Jews and infidels must be killed. They say
'Well I don't agree that that is what the Qu'ran says'.

And that is fine. But if you think about it -- what they are saying is "The
imams and the Arabic media are LYING about the Qu'ran."

Right? Is it not so??

Either the Qu'ran commands the faithful to convert or kill the Jews the
Christians the Zoroastrians (all the 'people of the book') and infidels ...
or in doesn't.

Both can't be true. It's one or the other.

Mainstream Palestinian and Arabic media is very clear on which they believe
it is -- they make no secret of it. The imams make no secret of their
interpretation either.

But we have some Muslims who disagree (and I hope they are right - I hope
the Qu'ran does not really say that when interpreted correctly.)

Since they disagree then surely they must realize that the mainstream Arabic
and Palestinian media and the Arabic media and the imams are spreading lies
about the Qu'ran. And by doing so the imams etc are blaspheming the Holy
Prophet. Because if the Qu'ran does not command those things and they are
commanding it, they are telling lies about the Qu'ran and about the Holy
Prophet.

So why don't the Muslims who realize that the Qu'ran is being distorted and
lied about tell anyone that that is so? Why don't they publish letters
explaining howv the imams are blaspheming the name of the Holy Prophet by
telling lies about him?

I would like to know the answer to this.

- Jeff

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> One thing I don't get is the minority of Muslims who say they don't agree
> with the mainstream view that all Jews and infidels must be killed. They say
> 'Well I don't agree that that is what the Qu'ran says'.
>
> And that is fine. But if you think about it -- what they are saying is "The
> imams and the Arabic media are LYING about the Qu'ran."
>
> Right? Is it not so??
>
> Either the Qu'ran commands the faithful to convert or kill the Jews the
> Christians the Zoroastrians (all the 'people of the book') and infidels ...
> or in doesn't.
>
> Both can't be true. It's one or the other.
<snip>

The Koran does indeed exhort Muslims to kill Jews, along with other non-Muslims, but that is the nature of ancient religions. The Bible does the same thing:

"If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die." -- Deuteronomy, Chapter 17:2-3,5

There are many examples where God specifies individual tribes who are just begging for a good whuppin, rapin, burnin and killin. The important thing is what a religion does with their holy books. The Catholic church has committed many atrocities over the century, but it has pretty much settled down. They have found that they could not get away with the kind of stuff they did to the Cathars, for example. The problem with present day Islam is that they have not yet learned the same lesson the Catholic church has. I am sure "Christians" would still be using Biblical excuses for killing if they could.

John Starrett

on 12/14/02 6:06 PM, John Starrett <jstarret@...> wrote:

> The Koran does indeed exhort Muslims to kill Jews, along with other
> non-Muslims, but that is the nature of ancient religions. The Bible does the
> same thing:
>
> "If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God
> giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the
> LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other
> gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of
> heaven, which I have not commanded; Then shalt thou bring forth that man or
> that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that
> man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die." --
> Deuteronomy, Chapter 17:2-3,5

This particular verse was addressed at the Jews themselves and not fereign
peoples. Jews were exhorted to treat all foreigners and strangers (aside
from the terribly wicked) with compassion and as they did their own, not
oppressing any foreigner because "You once were strangers yourselves in the
land of Egypt."

- Jeff

Like i said the christian didn't need it in their bible to kill Jews and if we want to keep facts straight
(of course johnny might know otherwise)
THE CHRISTIANS HAVE KILLED MORE JEWS THAN ANYONE ELSE

"John Starrett " wrote:

> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> > One thing I don't get is the minority of Muslims who say they don't agree
> > with the mainstream view that all Jews and infidels must be killed. They say
> > 'Well I don't agree that that is what the Qu'ran says'.
> >
> > And that is fine. But if you think about it -- what they are saying is "The
> > imams and the Arabic media are LYING about the Qu'ran."
> >
> > Right? Is it not so??
> >
> > Either the Qu'ran commands the faithful to convert or kill the Jews the
> > Christians the Zoroastrians (all the 'people of the book') and infidels ...
> > or in doesn't.
> >
> > Both can't be true. It's one or the other.
> <snip>
>
> The Koran does indeed exhort Muslims to kill Jews, along with other non-Muslims, but that is the nature of ancient religions. The Bible does the same thing:
>
> "If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die." -- Deuteronomy, Chapter 17:2-3,5
>
> There are many examples where God specifies individual tribes who are just begging for a good whuppin, rapin, burnin and killin. The important thing is what a religion does with their holy books. The Catholic church has committed many atrocities over the century, but it has pretty much settled down. They have found that they could not get away with the kind of stuff they did to the Cathars, for example. The problem with present day Islam is that they have not yet learned the same lesson the Catholic church has. I am sure "Christians" would still be using Biblical excuses for killing if they could.
>
> John Starrett
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

In a message dated 12/14/02 11:54:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kraiggrady@... writes:

> Like i said the christian didn't need it in their bible to kill Jews and if
> we want to keep facts straight
> (of course johnny might know otherwise)
> THE CHRISTIANS HAVE KILLED MORE JEWS THAN ANYONE ELSE

Kraig, I do not think of the NAZI's as Christians, somehow. I'm sure many
were, but they were hedonists. I don't think they clothed themselves in
religious attire like al Queda does. The point to be made here, is there is
NO history of Jews doing anything in history other than striving through
talent and perspiration.

It really does disgust me that the world thinks of Jews (as Israeli
surrogates) as terrorists. Jews have been destroyed by every nation that is
negative to it today.

There are crazy Jews and non-Jews. But if you read the writing on the wall,
now the internet, there is a growing army of thousands that use their
scripture as a license to murder on a grand scale. The fact that there is so
much diversity in response to this reality is scary in itself.

After World War II, Jews had a saying which was "Never Again!" and so they
are defending themselves. Brooklyn orthodoxers would plant an orthodox
Jewish kid as a judas and have him alone in a train traveling through Harlem.
If there was and interest in the bait, streams of JDL would pounce on them
form the connecting cars.
I don't even think that kind of thing made the news.

The thing is, Jews don't like and they don't like the killing of innocents.
They have contributed many valuable things to the world, including many
hospitals, and many doctors. Right now there is a lot of spin all over.
History trumps spin.

my opinion,

Johnny Reinhard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

on 12/14/02 11:53 PM, Kraig Grady wrote:

> THE CHRISTIANS HAVE KILLED MORE JEWS THAN ANYONE ELSE

Of course that is not true. It's a lie. And a rather disingenuous one at
that.

- Jeff

Johnny!
I think the nazi's might have considered them self as such. But in general I
hope you realize that i am not arguing against you and my comment below was to
solicit your veiwpoint not to nullify those previous. I fully recognize the
great talent the jews have and it is some justice that this talent was used to
destroy those whose warped sense thought not. That there are those that
consider the jew terrorist in Muslum countries is absurd, but don't know of
anyone on this side of the fence, who though they might be critical in
instances,
would ever classify them as such. But even our best friends can at times quite
hard to take and might do thinks we do not approve of.
Demonizing the opposite side is not going to help because they are not going
to go away, or if they do, it seems we would have been done in ourselves. It is
hard to fathom how the three most closely related religions would be the most
violent against weash other is sick. Ives music always capture for me this
conflict between religious group right here and in his music it never "resolves"
it goes on and on. It is always a very painful thing to know that this conflict
just in the US will never be cured so to speak. It is one of the reasons i can't
listen to it all the time. It is just too much to bear.That war can be a great
diversion from Civil war- and these elements are once again near the surface
here.
A rabbi told me while a go how in China in one particular area the
christians and jews live together but the Chinese callthem the same religion
because there god is the same. It is better in our instance to fight "with' the
Koran than against it. With it by recognizing that according t othe books we are
of the same family.

Afmmjr@... wrote:

> In a message dated 12/14/02 11:54:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> kraiggrady@... writes:
>
> > Like i said the christian didn't need it in their bible to kill Jews and if
> > we want to keep facts straight
> > (of course johnny might know otherwise)
> > THE CHRISTIANS HAVE KILLED MORE JEWS THAN ANYONE ELSE
>
> Kraig, I do not think of the NAZI's as Christians, somehow. I'm sure many
> were, but they were hedonists. I don't think they clothed themselves in
> religious attire like al Queda does. The point to be made here, is there is
> NO history of Jews doing anything in history other than striving through
> talent and perspiration.
>
> It really does disgust me that the world thinks of Jews (as Israeli
> surrogates) as terrorists. Jews have been destroyed by every nation that is
> negative to it today.
>
> There are crazy Jews and non-Jews. But if you read the writing on the wall,
> now the internet, there is a growing army of thousands that use their
> scripture as a license to murder on a grand scale. The fact that there is so
> much diversity in response to this reality is scary in itself.
>
> After World War II, Jews had a saying which was "Never Again!" and so they
> are defending themselves. Brooklyn orthodoxers would plant an orthodox
> Jewish kid as a judas and have him alone in a train traveling through Harlem.
> If there was and interest in the bait, streams of JDL would pounce on them
> form the connecting cars.
> I don't even think that kind of thing made the news.
>
> The thing is, Jews don't like and they don't like the killing of innocents.
> They have contributed many valuable things to the world, including many
> hospitals, and many doctors. Right now there is a lot of spin all over.
> History trumps spin.
>
> my opinion,
>
> Johnny Reinhard
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

In a message dated 12/15/02 4:30:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
kraiggrady@... writes:

> With it by recognizing that according t othe books we are
> of the same family.
>
>

Kraig, I don't doubt your good nature in these discussions. And honestly, I
do not feel of the religious family at all. It is amazing to me. All of a
sudden I am a Jew because that is how I am seen. And that was the ruin of
"Jews" through history.

So, it's not about religion, it is about religion: It really comes down to
who you identify with on some level. While I have been close to Palestinians
and Arabs, who are actually more like Jews in certain ways than any other two
people (not unlike Hutu and Tutsi), I have come to see the explosions in Gaza
and the West Bank as self-defense. This is a rare trait among Jews and it
took a lot to accomplish. It may not solve more than keeping a Jewish state
longer than it could otherwise (if it lost its battles).

When the first attacks on children occurred I knew what would happen, and it
did. But my non-Jewish friends wouldn't believe it. Now they condemn it.

If I was not threatened, and I could argue to keep an illusory status quo, I
might try to justify to everyone who would listen, too.

Let's hope we can all recover from the forces that are brewing. It's got a
lot of the Lord of the Ring in it. Al Queda starring as Mordor.

best, Johnny Reinhard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
> Like i said the christian didn't need it in their bible to kill
Jews and if we want to keep facts straight
> (of course johnny might know otherwise)
> THE CHRISTIANS HAVE KILLED MORE JEWS THAN ANYONE ELSE

nah, i think it was the communists.

you might be right about that. the context was to point out that islam is
not the only big bad enemy historically but i am trying to stay out of this
now. I have had enough. your turn

"wallyesterpaulrus " wrote:

>
> > THE CHRISTIANS HAVE KILLED MORE JEWS THAN ANYONE ELSE
>
> nah, i think it was the communists.
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST