interesting verse from the Koran

More facts from the religion of peace:

Palestinian TV has recently been calling upon viewers to seek out and fight
Jews and 'afflict them with terrible torment'. Yeah, so what else is new...
but did you realize that it is a commandment from the Koran to hate Jews?
That I did not know! Yes indeedy, the Islamic faith explicitly names the
Jews as those who are behind the world's troubles:

"You will find that the most brazen among mankind, with hatred toward the
believers, are the Jews and the idolaters." [Koran, 81,5].

So I guess it's not just the radical element -- it's a core teaching of the
religion.

--

You can read more at the following "Palestinian Media Watch":

http://www.pmw.org.il/

--

Including these transcripts from very recent objective and impartial shows
on Palestinian TV:

"Allah loves those who fight on his behalf. Allah said, 'Your Lord has
declared that he will surely send against them [the Jews] until
Resurrection, those who will afflict them with terrible torment.'"

"Praise be to Allah, who has cursed [the Jews], the brothers of monkeys and
pigs, with a stream of curses that will continue until the Resurrection of
the dead. He has warned us against their evil and their arrogance, and has
said: 'You will find that the most brazen among mankind, with hatred toward
the believers, are the Jews and the idolaters.' [Koran, 81,5].

"It is not foreign to them to shed our blood. They murder and slaughter us,
demolish our homes and destroy everything that is important to us. ß The
Jews are Jews, and we are forbidden to forget their character traits even
for a moment, even for a blink of an eye. O [Muslim] Servants of Allah! The
Jews are those who tried to murder your Prophet in order to expunge the call
[to Islam]. It is no wonder that it has been legitimized [for them] to kill
and slaughter us."

"Our enemies are waging a war against us, against Islam and the Muslims in
particular, against those who demand their rights, and against any Muslim
who seeks to hold his head up. They are trying to subdue us with hard
oppression. Such are the Jews, who are fighting against us during Ramadan
and our peaceful festival, and also during the holy months, because they are
idolaters, heretics, whose faith is false. While we are the believers in the
truth and in the true faith."

"[Muhammad] said, after he expelled [the Jews] from Arabia, 'Two religions
will not be here together.' It is not unusual for the Jews, nor
uncharacteristic of their traits, or their ancestry, or their wild behavior,
what they are doing slaughter after slaughter, invasion after invasion. This
has been the custom of the Jews throughout the generations and the ages.
This is especially so when the Muslims are united and seek their full
rights, since [Muslims] are the ones with the Truth and the Jews have
Falsehood."

Jeff!
I guess that is why during the inquistion they gave they places for exile.
Thats is also why you find Jewish communities in Yemen and Iran. you continue
to spew out this stuff that quoite frankly convinces me that the palestinians
have every right to there own land. That the US proposes that if the
palestinians give up 60% of there land in order to be recognized as a "state"
proves that the only goal is the taking of Land, all of it. That is all is
about. I tell you what Jeff why don't you post the zionist documents from the
20's. Where they describe the ethnic cleansing of the area that is necessary.
By violent means especially. the russian jews i know who went there first
refused to stay because they found them violent fanatics. Why don't you post
some of this stuff Jeff!
Your the same type that would claim that the "injuns" believe in this and
that practice which make them savages so they "deserved" to get wiped out. I
guess your solution would be if Israel wiped out the entire Islamic world

"X. J. Scott" wrote:

> More facts from the religion of peace:
>
> Palestinian TV has recently been calling upon viewers to seek out and fight
> Jews and 'afflict them with terrible torment'. Yeah, so what else is new...
> but did you realize that it is a commandment from the Koran to hate Jews?
> That I did not know! Yes indeedy, the Islamic faith explicitly names the
> Jews as those who are behind the world's troubles:
>
> "You will find that the most brazen among mankind, with hatred toward the
> believers, are the Jews and the idolaters." [Koran, 81,5].
>
> So I guess it's not just the radical element -- it's a core teaching of the
> religion.
>
> --
>
> You can read more at the following "Palestinian Media Watch":
>
> http://www.pmw.org.il/
>
> --
>
> Including these transcripts from very recent objective and impartial shows
> on Palestinian TV:
>
> "Allah loves those who fight on his behalf. Allah said, 'Your Lord has
> declared that he will surely send against them [the Jews] until
> Resurrection, those who will afflict them with terrible torment.'"
>
> "Praise be to Allah, who has cursed [the Jews], the brothers of monkeys and
> pigs, with a stream of curses that will continue until the Resurrection of
> the dead. He has warned us against their evil and their arrogance, and has
> said: 'You will find that the most brazen among mankind, with hatred toward
> the believers, are the Jews and the idolaters.' [Koran, 81,5].
>
> "It is not foreign to them to shed our blood. They murder and slaughter us,
> demolish our homes and destroy everything that is important to us. � The
> Jews are Jews, and we are forbidden to forget their character traits even
> for a moment, even for a blink of an eye. O [Muslim] Servants of Allah! The
> Jews are those who tried to murder your Prophet in order to expunge the call
> [to Islam]. It is no wonder that it has been legitimized [for them] to kill
> and slaughter us."
>
> "Our enemies are waging a war against us, against Islam and the Muslims in
> particular, against those who demand their rights, and against any Muslim
> who seeks to hold his head up. They are trying to subdue us with hard
> oppression. Such are the Jews, who are fighting against us during Ramadan
> and our peaceful festival, and also during the holy months, because they are
> idolaters, heretics, whose faith is false. While we are the believers in the
> truth and in the true faith."
>
> "[Muhammad] said, after he expelled [the Jews] from Arabia, 'Two religions
> will not be here together.' It is not unusual for the Jews, nor
> uncharacteristic of their traits, or their ancestry, or their wild behavior,
> what they are doing slaughter after slaughter, invasion after invasion. This
> has been the custom of the Jews throughout the generations and the ages.
> This is especially so when the Muslims are united and seek their full
> rights, since [Muslims] are the ones with the Truth and the Jews have
> Falsehood."
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

Jeff!
I guess that is why during the inquistion they gave they places for
exile.
Thats is also why you find Jewish communities in Yemen and Iran.

Kraig, I'm afraid you are arguing more from ideology than you realize. Even
Germans and Poles saved Jews in World II. And all the Yemeni left Yemen as
soon as they could move to Israel. Iran's relationships with Jews starts
with making Jews slaves, as with Iraq.

you continue>
> to spew out this stuff that quoite frankly convinces me that the
> palestinians
> have every right to there own land.

Kraig, Jeff was spewing the Koran and news clippings. It has nothing to do
with real estate.

That the US proposes that if the>
> palestinians give up 60% of there land in order to be recognized as a
> "state"
> proves that the only goal is the taking of Land, all of it. That is all is
> about.

Kraig, Jews were part of the whole arabic world for over century. Jewish men
never met Arabic women. Jewish men never entered Arabic homes (because of
the dangers of turning down food that does not match Kashrut laws). All the
property of Jews living in Tripoli, Baghdad, Saudi Arabia (yes, there were
Jews once throughout the Arabian peninsula). It's the trick the Germans
always practiced during the Middle Ages, take the property from the Jews, let
them gradually recover for German needs (like money lending, advice,
technical skills, etc.), and then do it again. Jews were never truly part of
the Arabic world. They have been treated as outsiders everywhere, except
maybe the U.S.

I tell you what Jeff why don't you post the zionist documents from the
> 20's. Where they describe the ethnic cleansing of the area that is
> necessary.

The Zionism of the 20's was no doubt desperate about their existence. Jews
were, and had been, taken advantage in every way, leading up to the
Holocaust. While I ca afford not to be a Zionist and would prefer that
Israel did not take more land for settling, I know they do it out of a picque
that this is what Arabs did to peoples all over the map. The minute land
that is Israel is nothing compared to the land mass that is Arabic. But I
have much compassion for the dispossessed, of any people, and wish this could
be settled by real estate.

> By violent means especially. the russian jews i know who went there first
> refused to stay because they found them violent fanatics. Why don't you
> post
> some of this stuff Jeff!

The native Israelis are more than violent fanatics: they are victims of an
ancient hatred, if not competition between 2 competing views of the universe.
Now the Israeli and the Palestinian are victims of Traumatic Stress
Disorder, just like some New Yorkers. It can indeed get worse (e.g.,
Cambodians, Rwandans, Gujarat).

> Your the same type that would claim that the "injuns" believe in this
> and
> that practice which make them savages so they "deserved" to get wiped out.

Kraig, I know you don't mean to "type" a List member. I know that Jeff would
not believe any such thing. That's why I think you arguing too much from
ideology.

guess your solution would be if Israel wiped out the entire Islamic
world
>
>

Kraig, the incendiary feature aside, I realize you are just making chit-chat
on the List. But I think you this a bit more black and white than the
chromaticism it deserves.

best, Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Afmmjr@... wrote:

> And all the Yemeni left Yemen as
> soon as they could move to Israel.

I have a recording put out By UNESCO of Yemenite Jews recorded in 1976 D 8024
which seems to disprove this. possibly this has changed. When he says that
hating Jews is a "commandment" in the Koran
then the Jews would have been wiped out long ago. I am sure they were not bosom
buddies but it really is stated in the extreme
I could go through the old testement and bring up every piece of garbage in it ,
but i am really not interested in it , nor do i believe that what is practiced
is in the books. The Nazis were Christians and if we judged them by what was in
the New Testament they are the most humane on earth. Such Quoting is a lie and
we know it! There are all type of things that bug me about Mohammed and the
Koran. But think more would be gained in findig those things in the book that
are worth p[reserving and help to easing tension, not increasing it.

> Iran's relationships with Jews starts
> with making Jews slaves, as with Iraq.

As kuwaitis still do with its non citizens

>
> Kraig, Jeff was spewing the Koran and news clippings.

It serve his purpose of demonizing the entire islamic world and I bring up the
examples i do to point out how one sided his post are.

> Kraig, the incendiary feature aside, I realize you are just making chit-chat
> on the List. But I think you this a bit more black and white than the
> chromaticism it deserves.

I think this means to be directed to Jeff, not me. He is the one presenting this
as a black and white issue. I am not being Chit chatty but find this
anti-islamic blackening almost intolerable, especially day in and day out. That
there is nothing good in this religion, which is an ideology, contributes
nothing but to more hatred calls for a response to the contrary which my
examples are to show that it is not a black and white issue. .
I am on the verge of unsubscribing to this list because i don't really want to
hear this type of religious bigotry on a regular basis.
Just how many palestinians has he talked to or know? The countries some have
gone to those that have left are treated barely better than what you discribed.
Basically some were "forced" to move here because of the oppression.

>
> best, Johnny

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

on 12/12/02 1:43 PM, Kraig Grady wrote:

> He is the one presenting this
> as a black and white issue. I ... find this
> anti-islamic blackening almost intolerable

What I see is extensive handwringing about the poor Muslims and concerns
about not wanting to offend them since it is a small minority that is doing
the bad stuff. i also see a lot of trash talk about jews.

I offer balance by merely forwarding factual accounts of what mainstream
muslims worldwide are actually saying in their newspapers, on their TVs, in
their mosques, and what they are actually doing in the streets such as an
epidemic of transparently obvious hate-crimes and mass-murder plots. This is
intentded to provide balance and another viewpoint -- one which is not being
heard at the moment.

That viewpoint IS THE VOICE OF THE MUSLIMS THEMSELVES.

Not mine - theirs. I just repeat their own words and document their actions.
Sometimes I might add a few words of commentary showing how I feel about it
lest anyone think I agree with what they are saying. Perhaps I should just
forward them without comment. If I did though I would probably be called
antisemitic since it would not be clear that I didn't agree with the
muslims.

- Jeff

on 12/12/02 11:29 AM, Kraig Grady wrote:

> I tell you what Jeff why don't you post the zionist documents from the
> 20's. Where they describe the ethnic cleansing of the area that is necessary.
> By violent means especially.

I haven't seen these, pehaps you will post them for us.

> Your the same type that would claim that the "injuns" believe in this and
> that practice which make them savages so they "deserved" to get wiped out. I

One thing I share with ethnic Jews as a Kiowa Indian is that we are both
tribal people with a ethnic identity that goes far back in to the past and a
homeland tied into that history. Most of the current inhabitants of the
current Palestinian Authority controlled area are immigrants from Egypt and
other surrounding areas.

> guess your solution would be if Israel wiped out the entire Islamic world

Let's get out the world map shall we and take a look. Color the nations that
are majority Muslim in Green. Color the countries that are majority Jewish
blue. (I have a map like this in a book on comparative religions.)

You want to tell me what it looks like?

Your implications that Muslims are a peaceful minority oppressed by violent
jews would be outlandish if it were not sincere. This is a dangerous lie to
maintain, like pouring gasoline on tinder. Why did those 20 some Muslims in
LA beat the crap out of the jewish fellow two weeks ago while shouting 'kill
the jew!" in front of multiple witnesses? Graham says there was no raical
component to this incident and it was a simple bar room brawl. Why were
Muslims planning to gas the London subway with cyanide, killing millions?
Why did Muslims blow up the World Trade Center? Because they listen to these
dangerous lies and become incensed. I feel for htem - if I believed those
dangerous lies about jews, I would hate jews also. But I look at the claims
being made and study the history and examine the credibility of the sources
and find that it is not true that there is an evil jewish conspiracy andthat
jews are actually not really the brothers of dogs and monkeys and jews
aren't really hate-mongering violent reptiles - they are much like everyone
else and many of them are quite noble people who have put up with a lot of
shit from people, just like the American Indian tribes. I suppose I have a
particular bond with my Jewish family because the tribal blood runs deep and
because we Kiowas saw the duplicious white man for what he was and brutally
slaughtered more white man than any other tribe. In that case, history
proved the intent of the white man and the miniscule and tiny Kiowa tribe
was right to resist the onslaught of evil white men trying their damdest to
eraditate the indians who were 'dogs and monkeys not worthy of life', just
like the Muslims call the Jews.

I have never heard a Jew say anything even remotely similar about a Muslim.
Appartenly you have authentic documents that will reeducate me on this.

I like your music very much and respect you *greatly* as an artist. I also
respect Wagner as an artist. His epic music is complex, stirring, uplifting
and highly emotional. Who could fail to be affected by it. But his politics
and antisemitism, his outrageous spreading of lies and hatred against jews
while consciously choosing for whatever reasons to remain blind to even the
most simple undeniable truths shocks and horrifies me.

I implore you to look at this issue carefully. Study the map. Reflect on the
history. Consider the possibility that maybe just maybe the jews have a
right to self-determination. Consider the possibility that the islamic media
and mosques are spreading outlandish hate-filled lies in order to incite the
faithful to crimes of genocide while sinking into further power-mad islamic
church-state oppressionism that redefines the term 'middle ages'.

Look at the map and tell me who is the minority. Look at history and tell me
who has been oppressed.

- Jeff

"X. J. Scott" wrote:

> on 12/12/02 1:43 PM, Kraig Grady wrote:
>
> > He is the one presenting this
> > as a black and white issue. I ... find this
> > anti-islamic blackening almost intolerable
>
> What I see is extensive handwringing about the poor Muslims and concerns
> about not wanting to offend them since it is a small minority that is doing
> the bad stuff.

I have no concern about not offending them.

> i also see a lot of trash talk about jews.

yes Jeff any comment about them is trashing them. I should accept that they are
always right especially when they shoot unarmed people. But this is not being
donne by Jews but by israelis and they share tha religion but are not always
the same thing

>
>
> I offer balance by merely forwarding factual accounts of what mainstream
> muslims worldwide are actually saying in their newspapers, on their TVs, in
> their mosques, and what they are actually doing in the streets such as an
> epidemic of transparently obvious hate-crimes and mass-murder plots. This is
> intentded to provide balance and another viewpoint -- one which is not being
> heard at the moment.

frankly this is the only viewpoint i hear. I have never seen you post anything
where possibly the otherside might be contributing to the situation. and you
call this balenced.
I find it nothing but continuous onesided propaganda. and where do you get it
, do you read farsi or Arabic? and do you read all their papers no!

>
>
> That viewpoint IS THE VOICE OF THE MUSLIMS THEMSELVES.

ONLY THE ONES YOU WISH TO REPEAT FOR YOUR OWN VIEWPOINT.
And only the ones the press want to convey to justify their little oil
excursion. why was not any of this reported during the gulf war, why because it
was not in their interest.

>
> Not mine - theirs. I just repeat their own words and document their actions.

WHAT ABOUT THE ACTIONS ON THE OTHERSIDE JEFF.
We are going to leave out all the unarmed people who are killed daily!
I am sure you are going to say it was in self defense. yes one side is always
right and the other always wrong. frankly if i was one of their neighbors i
would be worried.
No jeff it is comepletely and relentlessly onesided. If you found a good line
in the Koran ii am sure you would leave it out.

>
> Sometimes I might add a few words of commentary showing how I feel about it
> lest anyone think I agree with what they are saying. Perhaps I should just
> forward them without comment. If I did though I would probably be called
> antisemitic since it would not be clear that I didn't agree with the
> muslims.
>
> - Jeff

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

"X. J. Scott" wrote:

> Most of the current inhabitants of the
> current Palestinian Authority controlled area are immigrants from Egypt and
> other surrounding areas.

And where are most of the settlers in Israel from. Europe

>
>
> > guess your solution would be if Israel wiped out the entire Islamic world
>
> Let's get out the world map shall we and take a look. Color the nations that
> are majority Muslim in Green. Color the countries that are majority Jewish
> blue. (I have a map like this in a book on comparative religions.)
>
> You want to tell me what it looks like?

so you only oppose it because they are outnumbered?

>
>
> Your implications that Muslims are a peaceful minority oppressed by violent
> jews would be outlandish if it were not sincere.

> This is a dangerous lie to
> maintain, like pouring gasoline on tinder. Why did those 20 some Muslims in
> LA beat the crap out of the jewish fellow two weeks ago while shouting 'kill
> the jew!" in front of multiple witnesses? Graham says there was no raical
> component to this incident and it was a simple bar room brawl.

Obviously the israeli tactics of going into moslem sacred sites was a deliberate
aggravation ( no one is that stupid)of the situation that has escalated to
religious levels. They were not doing this till then.

> Why were
> Muslims planning to gas the London subway with cyanide, killing millions?

because of their support of this type of action

>
> Why did Muslims blow up the World Trade Center?

It is hard to say who did what here. Since we know that the names of the
individuals were not who they said they were.
do you see pictures of all the hijackers boarding flights, no , because they don't
match. they all used each other names time and time again. this is common
knowledge.

> Because they listen to these
> dangerous lies and become incensed. I feel for htem - if I believed those
> dangerous lies about jews, I would hate jews also.

> But I look at the claims
> being made and study the history and examine the credibility of the sources
> and find that it is not true that there is an evil jewish conspiracy and that
> jews are actually not really the brothers of dogs and monkeys and jews
> aren't really hate-mongering violent reptiles - they are much like everyone
> else and many of them are quite noble people who have put up with a lot of
> shit from people, just like the American Indian tribes.

well i don't believe in any Jewish conspiracy but find some of the actions of
Isreal no better then their opponents, and find the direction they are moving
dangerous even to themselves. It isn't going to work unless they find being at war
with their neighbors for ever a solution for them

> I suppose I have a
> particular bond with my Jewish family because the tribal blood runs deep and
> because we Kiowas saw the duplicious white man for what he was and brutally
> slaughtered more white man than any other tribe. In that case, history
> proved the intent of the white man and the miniscule and tiny Kiowa tribe
> was right to resist the onslaught of evil white men trying their damdest to
> eraditate the indians who were 'dogs and monkeys not worthy of life', just
> like the Muslims call the Jews.
>
> I have never heard a Jew say anything even remotely similar about a Muslim.

the actions sperak louder than words some time

>
> I like your music very much and respect you *greatly* as an artist. I also
> respect Wagner as an artist.

As long as you understand that our views toward jews are differnt. I don't find
anyone surperior or inferior yet certain tribes seem to shine in certain areas,
which might be more environmental than not. who is to say and does it matter.

> His epic music is complex, stirring, uplifting
> and highly emotional. Who could fail to be affected by it. But his politics
> and antisemitism, his outrageous spreading of lies and hatred against jews
> while consciously choosing for whatever reasons to remain blind to even the
> most simple undeniable truths shocks and horrifies me.

I understand his wife was worse than him and it is some justice that the best
conductor of his music was Mahler. That he was forced to convert really didn't
save them from this, did it!

>
>
> I implore you to look at this issue carefully. Study the map. Reflect on the
> history. Consider the possibility that maybe just maybe the jews have a
> right to self-determination.

I believe they have every right to self determination and i realize how much they
are backed into a corner. there must be better ways than abusing their (albeit
likewise abusive) neighbors

> Consider the possibility that the islamic media
> and mosques are spreading outlandish hate-filled lies in order to incite the
> faithful to crimes of genocide while sinking into further power-mad islamic
> church-state oppressionism that redefines the term 'middle ages'.

I don't know how you resolve the fact that you have holy site on top of holy site
this is going to breed such attitudes wheather in the media or in the back alleys.
I have no doubt such rhetoric is high but do not think it is predetermined in the
Koran for instance. look what the bible is used for by fanatics here and how it
has been used in the past.

>
>
> Look at the map and tell me who is the minority.

> Look at history and tell me
> who has been oppressed.

I can think of quite a few oppressed people. the Kurds come to mind and on one
hand we chastise Saddam on one hand while the Turks make him look like a saint.
Africa is filled with opressed people. here we have blacks, indians, and anyone
from a country "south" of us. Yes the Jews have got it bad too. I know an artist
who was a member of only 3 jewish families who survived in Vienna
during the war. still he stated he grew up with swastikas in windows

>
>
> - Jeff
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

In a message dated 12/12/02 1:44:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kraiggrady@... writes:

> I have a recording put out By UNESCO of Yemenite Jews recorded in 1976 D
> 8024
> which seems to disprove this. possibly this has changed.

Check your recording. Maybe the Yemenites (as opposed to Arabic Yemeniah)
were recording from outside Yemen. The Yemenite move out of Israel is quite
well known.

When he says that > hating Jews is a "commandment" in the Koran
> then the Jews would have been wiped out long ago.

They were wiped out in Arabia. They were nearly wiped out in Europe. They
were wiped out in various Arabic nations last century. Syria keeps 5,000
Jews hostage: they are not permitted to leave the country.

best, Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

X. J. Scott wrote:

> Why did those 20 some Muslims in
> LA beat the crap out of the jewish fellow two weeks ago while shouting 'kill
> the jew!" in front of multiple witnesses? Graham says there was no raical
> component to this incident and it was a simple bar room brawl.

Hello, Jeff! How nice of you to spread lies about me. I didn't say there was no raical component at all. In fact, I don't even know what the word "raical" means. I didn't even say there was no racial component. I did say it was a brawl. Around here, brawls often have a racial component. Unless there's somebody famous involved, it doesn't make national news. But because this was Muslims beating up a Jew, it gets reported in Boston and then you choose to share it with us.

I can't find the original report -- it's expired from both Yahoo and that Boston paper. From your own quote, there were only "up to 15" men involved, in addition to the 2 men arrested. Yet the figure now seems to have inflated to "20 some". And it only says they kicked him, nothing about how badly they beat him up.

It certainly wasn't mass murder -- your interpretation. And neither was a man peeing in an aeroplane.

To provide the imbalance you choose to redress, here are some reports of men killed (in part, maybe) because they were believed to be Muslims:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/usahate/usa1102-04.htm#P349_57452

> Why were
> Muslims planning to gas the London subway with cyanide, killing millions?

Inflation at work yet again. The report says "An average of around 3.25million passengers use the underground every day." Now, I don't know if you're familiar with underground railways, but I think you'll find that not all 3 million people are in the same place at any given time. It'd be quite a squeeze if they were. If cyanide were released, it's possible as many as 100 people could die. It's not like nerve gas, you can smell it and run away. There's a long history of terrorism in London, and you can bet there are evacuation procedures. A really clever attack with simultaneous release in a number of carriages might kill a lot more, but I'd like to see some evidence of that being planned. The report you quoted is very thin.

> and find that it is not true that there is an evil jewish conspiracy andthat
> jews are actually not really the brothers of dogs and monkeys and jews
> aren't really hate-mongering violent reptiles

No shit!

I found this on my travels which is moderately interesting:

http://www.palit.com/2002_09_08_tkl_archive.asp#85439759

Oh, and as to the subject line, I'd be really interested in your interpretation of "The Table" in its entirety.

Graham

Johnny! you are right. Jerusalem

Afmmjr@... wrote:

> In a message dated 12/12/02 1:44:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> kraiggrady@... writes:
>
> > I have a recording put out By UNESCO of Yemenite Jews recorded in 1976 D
> > 8024
> > which seems to disprove this. possibly this has changed.
>
> Check your recording. Maybe the Yemenites (as opposed to Arabic Yemeniah)
> were recording from outside Yemen. The Yemenite move out of Israel is quite
> well known.

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

on 12/13/02 9:33 AM, Graham Breed wrote:

> How nice of you to spread lies about me.

As opposed to your objective calling me one of the "worst kinds" of bigots
no doubt.

> I didn't say there was no raical component at all.

Obviously a typo for racial.

> In fact, I don't even know what the word "raical" means.

But you did know what I meant. Playing dumb is such a lovely strategery for
ya I guess?

> I didn't even say there was no racial component. I did say it was a brawl.

I said it was a hate crime. What that means is that it was racially
motivated. You disagreed with me, saying it was a simple bar brawl. The
difference between a hate crime and a bar brawl is the element of race. If
not this, then what were you disagreeing is not clear.

It sounds like we're having one of the following conversations:

A: Chocolate is tasty.
B: That is not true.
A: So you don't like chocolate.
B: I never said that. You are spreading lies about me.

We call that 'being squirrley' around here. It means you say something plain
and clear and then try to weasel your way out of it using linguistic
hair-splitting arguments while hurling accusations at others and claiming to
be a poor injured victim. It's the provinence of weak women, Enron
executives and President Clinton.

> Around here, brawls often have a racial component.

So you do agree with me that it was a hate crime. Glad that's settled.

> Unless there's somebody famous involved, it doesn't
> make national news. But because this was Muslims beating up a Jew, it
> gets reported in Boston and then you choose to share it with us.

I assure you that if a crowd of Jews beat up a Muslim in LA it would be
reported worldwide. Problem is that nothing like that has ever happened.

> I can't find the original report -- it's expired from both Yahoo and
> that Boston paper. From your own quote, there were only "up to 15" men
> involved, in addition to the 2 men arrested. Yet the figure now seems
> to have inflated to "20 some". And it only says they kicked him,
> nothing about how badly they beat him up.

You're right that I should have refreshed my memory on the original article.
20 some vs 17 is not a huge difference but it is inaccurate. glad to have
cleared that up. OK, a minute 17 Muslims beat up a single Jew while shouting
'kill the jew'.

17 guys going after 1 guy while screaming 'kill the jew' sounds like someone
getting the crap beat out of them. I find it quite odd that you don't see
this.

> It certainly wasn't mass murder

I posted several articles and then commented on them. The articles included
the cyanide gas in the subway attack. As I said before, that is a
mass-murder plot. You come across like you think a cyanide attack in the
subway is no big deal. I guess that's because you're just more sophisticated
and worldly than us Americans. We would consider a cyanide gas in the subway
a very big deal. You say "there's a long history of terrorism in Londen". OK
that's interesting. Why is that anyway? Why don't you do something to stop
it? Is it possible you are complacent about psychopaths wrecking havoc as
long as it doesn't interfere wtih your own comfortable life. Even if so, why
is it necessary to take issue with those of us who do see a problem with
these things and believe the right thing to do is to put an end to them.

Thanks for the clarification anyway,

- Jeff

X. J. Scott wrote:

>>How nice of you to spread lies about me.
>> >>
>
>As opposed to your objective calling me one of the "worst kinds" of bigots
>no doubt.
>
No, that's subjective. Why would I say otherwise?

>>I didn't even say there was no racial component. I did say it was a brawl.
>> >>
>
>I said it was a hate crime. What that means is that it was racially
>motivated. You disagreed with me, saying it was a simple bar brawl. The
>difference between a hate crime and a bar brawl is the element of race. If
>not this, then what were you disagreeing is not clear.
>
What you said in

/metatuning/topicId_3469.html#3476

is "No actually Graham the fact is that the common thread is that all the
stories have taken place in the last week and are about hate crimes and
plots of mass-murder committed by Muslims against others" This is one of those stories, so it must be both a hate crime and plot of mass murder.

>It sounds like we're having one of the following conversations:
>
>A: Chocolate is tasty.
>B: That is not true.
>A: So you don't like chocolate.
>B: I never said that. You are spreading lies about me.
>
>We call that 'being squirrley' around here. It means you say something plain
>and clear and then try to weasel your way out of it using linguistic
>hair-splitting arguments while hurling accusations at others and claiming to
>be a poor injured victim. It's the provinence of weak women, Enron
>executives and President Clinton.
>
I said "If you think a pub brawl counts as mass murder that really points to your being one of the worst kinds [of bigots]." I think that makes it fairly clear that it was the "mass murder" bit I was objecting to. Can you rephrase it at all to make it clearer? I assume you remember what message it's from as you keep referring to it:

/metatuning/topicId_3469.html#3481

>>Around here, brawls often have a racial component.
>> >>
>
>So you do agree with me that it was a hate crime. Glad that's settled.
>
It looks like it, but no it isn't settled. What about peeing in an aeroplane? How is that a racial crime or plot of mass murder? And why do you assume an Arab must be a Muslim if you are "not aware that Muslims comprised a common race"?

>>Unless there's somebody famous involved, it doesn't
>>make national news. But because this was Muslims beating up a Jew, it
>>gets reported in Boston and then you choose to share it with us.
>> >>
>
>I assure you that if a crowd of Jews beat up a Muslim in LA it would be
>reported worldwide. Problem is that nothing like that has ever happened.
>
According to this chart:

http://www.cair-net.org/html/bycategory.htm

there were 289 incidents of physical assault or property damage against Muslims in the US between September 11 2001 and February 8th 2002. None of them got reported here that I noticed. (They're classed as "anti-Muslim". I don't know how strict they are about proving racial motives.) So you're saying they would have been reported if the perpetrators had been Jews? Well, two wrongs don't make a right.

>17 guys going after 1 guy while screaming 'kill the jew' sounds like someone
>getting the crap beat out of them. I find it quite odd that you don't see
>this.
> >
Again, the word "screaming" seems to be your invention. It could mean they stood in a circle and shouted at him, with an occasional kick to the shins. Or it could mean they really did beat the crap out of him. Your quote doesn't say.

I'm not schooled up on American law I'm afraid. In Britain, some body who "beat the crap out of" somebody else would be charged with grevious bodily harm. Your report says these men were only charged with assault. Does anybody know the American equivalent of GBH?

>>It certainly wasn't mass murder
>> >>
>
>I posted several articles and then commented on them. The articles included
>the cyanide gas in the subway attack. As I said before, that is a
>mass-murder plot. You come across like you think a cyanide attack in the
>subway is no big deal.
>
I said it wouldn't kill millions of people. Really, it wouldn't.

> I guess that's because you're just more sophisticated
>and worldly than us Americans. We would consider a cyanide gas in the subway
>a very big deal. You say "there's a long history of terrorism in Londen". OK
>that's interesting. Why is that anyway?
>
Catholics, Jeff. Not Muslims.

> Why don't you do something to stop
>it?
>
You mean me personally? What do you suggest?

> Is it possible you are complacent about psychopaths wrecking havoc as
>long as it doesn't interfere wtih your own comfortable life. Even if so, why
>is it necessary to take issue with those of us who do see a problem with
>these things and believe the right thing to do is to put an end to them.
>
The one thing Al-Qaeda really want to see is an American public seething with hatred against Muslims. If you believe stirring up this hatred will put an end to terrorism you're sadly deluded. I have a problem with you because you're projecting an image of America that's easy to hate, and so encouraging the psychopaths. Fortunately, you aren't that important, so it isn't a big problem. Most of your compatriots are behaving responsibly, hating the psychopaths but not those who happen to share their religion.

Graham

on 12/13/02 4:46 PM, Graham Breed wrote:

> You say "there's a long history of terrorism in Londen". OK
>> that's interesting. Why is that anyway?
>>
> Catholics, Jeff. Not Muslims.

Yes, I knew that was coming next. but that is not really a religious issue
is it now. That is the legitimate response of the oppresed Irish race
against the genocide commited against them by the inhuman brutality of the
Imperialist Brits. Totally justified acts of self defense. Just stop
brutalizing the Irish race and their attempts to defend themselves against
your psychopathic acts of depravity will end.

- Jeff

on 12/13/02 4:46 PM, Graham Breed wrote:

> you aren't that important, so it isn't a big problem

Ah! So now we can make it personal. Excellant. Thank you for opening this
door.

First, to clear the air, it's true that I am not important. I make my living
in one of the poorest regions of the US where many Scotch and Irish settled
- the Scotch since the hills and valleys and weather are so similar to that
of Scotlad. This wild untamable hills are a unique area, one few would
choose to settle in, but I di, as did my ancestors where were in this very
county in 1803 and perhaps even earlier.

I raise milkgoats and chickens and some crops. The only thing I make any
money from is tobacco crops. And not much at that. I struggle to get by and
most months don't know if I am going to be able to make it through the next.

Another thing I do is write a bit of microtonal music and a lot of
microtonal software, which is the best in its class. Although there are very
very few people who actually write microtonal music and fewer still who use
the Macintosh, among those who do, my program helps them out and they seem
to like it. It's easy to use but also has depth and many useful features. So
far though, my costs at developing it far exceed revenue, and I'm sure in
the eyes of many that makes me a dumbshit and a loser but I don't care. To
my family I am important -- there will be at least a handful of people at my
funeral. but to the world in general who gives a shit about me and why
should they really? You are entirely correct in that, outside of a small
nember of friends and family and a handful of real composers who are
actually composing real music who choose to work on the Macintosh, no one at
all will mourn my passing.

Another point I should bring up is that I was raised in a dysfunctional
family by drunk and angry parents including a deranged sociopathic father
who was a rocket-scientist, an aerospace-engineer, a intelligence agent, a
trained killer, and was accused of crimes too unspeakable to mention.
Despite all that, rather than becoming a drug addict or serial killer, I
have moved beyond that, graduated with top honors from one of the most
well-regarded universities, and after much struggle I am now the proud owner
of a used single-wide trailer. Yes, that is right! I am 'trailer-trash'. The
country road leading up to this place contains old trailers, abandoned
trailers, burned out cars and couches.

Am I nobody? Absolutely! In the grand scheme of things, I am not important
at all.

So why does my posting factual articles and reprints of the actual opinions
held by and publically touted unashamedly by our Musilm bretheren infuriate
you so?

It's just the facts. That's all it is. Why should that be such a threat.

- Jeff

PS - when will you be leaving the Falklands Islands?

Jeff,

I would just like to have clarity on one thing:

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> That is the legitimate response of the oppresed Irish race
> against the genocide commited against them by the inhuman
> brutality of the Imperialist Brits. Totally justified acts of
> self defense.

Are you saying that IRA terror bombings of civilians are "legitimate" and Al-Qaeda terror bombings are not?

Jon

on 12/14/02 1:33 PM, Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...> wrote:

> Are you saying that IRA terror bombings of civilians are "legitimate" and
> Al-Qaeda terror bombings are not?

yes, of course.

on 12/14/02 1:33 PM, Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...> wrote:

> Are you saying that IRA terror bombings of civilians are "legitimate" and
> Al-Qaeda terror bombings are not?

Jon,

Might I ask your opinion on the British terror attcks against civilian
targets? Why are their actions OK but its not Ok if the oppressed victims of
British imperialism defend themselves?

Al Qaeda's goal is the establishment of Islam worldwide and the elimination
of all infidels. If you doubt this, read again bin Ladens recent demand
letter or just turn on any Arabic TV station. Their goal is to take overn
the world and kill overyone who is not Musitheir particular brand of Muslim.
This is not a big secret -- it's openly discussed in their media and
outlined in their open letters.

Listening to them is just like reading Mein Kampf -- both outline the master
plan. Should we assume they are not serious and are only kidding? I think
not?

The big mistake the American Indians made was believing the colonizing
Imperialist English invaders were not there to eliminate them.

I am glad the Irish have the balls to fight back against the invaders. That
the intention of the English is the ELIMINATION of the Irish race which they
view as inferior and the total conquest of their sovereign territory and
long established homeland is quite clear. Hundreds of years of documentation
in the form of writings of the best British minds on the subject are
available if you doubt this - or just read Swift's A Modest Proposal for a
lucid response to the seething insanity of the British race-hatred.

"Down with the American Imperialists!" we hear shouted from the street riots
in London every other month. Talk about blaming the victim! The British
defined the word Imperialism and put even the most farfetched hallucinations
of Julius Caesar to shame.

Has this ended? Is it of the past? The British own the world's largest banks
and are even as we speak plotting to take over and once again enslave the
world. The cabal of international bankers (read british bankers) work behind
the scenes to obtain the ultimate power aphrodesiac - total world
domination.

- Jeff

Jeff!
Once a wise person said to me being "worked up " over this issue in fact
(let us remember Cardew death appeared to related to such)

"a just cause is the worse reason to kill anybody."

"X. J. Scott" wrote:

> on 12/14/02 1:33 PM, Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...> wrote:
>
> > Are you saying that IRA terror bombings of civilians are "legitimate" and
> > Al-Qaeda terror bombings are not?
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

But this is what the palestians are saying also?

"X. J. Scott" wrote:

> on 12/13/02 4:46 PM, Graham Breed wrote:
>
> > You say "there's a long history of terrorism in Londen". OK
> >> that's interesting. Why is that anyway?
> >>
> > Catholics, Jeff. Not Muslims.
>
> Yes, I knew that was coming next. but that is not really a religious issue
> is it now. That is the legitimate response of the oppresed Irish race
> against the genocide commited against them by the inhuman brutality of the
> Imperialist Brits. Totally justified acts of self defense. Just stop
> brutalizing the Irish race and their attempts to defend themselves against
> your psychopathic acts of depravity will end.
>
> - Jeff
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

on 12/14/02 3:25 PM, Kraig Grady wrote:

> But this is what the palestians are saying also?

i thought it was the israelis

Jeff,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> > Are you saying that IRA terror bombings of civilians are "legitimate" and
> > Al-Qaeda terror bombings are not?
>
> yes, of course.

Then I cannot approach anymore dialogue on any of these subjects, as you appear to hold an entirely hypocritical set of ethics. A terrorist bombing of innocent people is just that: terror. If *you* think that it is justified by one group simply because you believe they have a right to utilize that method, to further their cause, how in the hell can you condemn anyone else doing the same?

That you don't agree with Islamic terrorists is very clear, on a philosophical/religious level. But if you allow that it is OK by you for one group to kill others in the manners described, then there is no way to reconcile your condemnation of Islamic terrorists. After all, they are simply attempting to further their cause.

Terrorist bombs are terrorist bombs. None are acceptable.

Jon

on 12/14/02 7:43 PM, Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...> wrote:

> After all, they are simply attempting to further their cause.

Defending one's country against invaders who seek the elimination of your
race, as the Irish are doing, is very very different from the present al
Qaeda plot to enslave the world under a brutal regime of medieval Sharia
law.

There is indeed a difference. Grouping the irish among the terrorists shows
a woeful inability to discriminate between right and wrong, justice and
tyranny.

To each his own it appears.

- Jeff

> you appear to hold an entirely hypocritical set of ethics

Unlike myself, my detractors are extremely consistent.

They turn about and look the other way when a racist majority like the
Islamists and Euroaryans attack and brutalize a tiny Jewish minority. They
turn and look the other way as a racist majority like the British eradicates
the American Indians, carpetbombs impoverished and unarmed natives of the
Falklands Islands, and force the Irish to endurgo mass sterilization
programs as well as pogroms.

But as soon as the tiny oppressed minority DARES to fight back then the
hand-wringing begins.

"All violence is terrible!"

"The attacks must stop!"

"The Jews/Irish/Falklanders are evil subhuman troublemakers who must be
eradicated!"

Very consistent. Very admirable. No wonder the trains run on time in
Germany.

I am GLAD to be a hypocrite rather than being as totally 'consistent' as
those who belittle and mock me.

- Jeff

Jeff,

So it doesn't matter how many innocent people are killed, as long as they are killed to support causes you believe are just, right?

OK, you've got your causes, your demons, your heroes. And you seem proud to espouse differing views that are at odds with each other, simply because your grasp of the facts differs from other people. It's just too bad that killing is such a big part of the equation that you are comfortable with. I just can't be part of the killing ethic.

Jon

on 12/14/02 8:21 PM, Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...> wrote:

> So it doesn't matter how many innocent people are killed, as long as they are
> killed to support causes you believe are just, right?

Not at all. I am saying that every man has the right to defend himself
against those who seek to kill him and his family.

The issue is one of self defense.

- Jeff

[me:]
>> 17 guys going after 1 guy while screaming 'kill the jew' sounds like someone
>> getting the crap beat out of them. I find it quite odd that you don't see
>> this.

[graham:]
> Again, the word "screaming" seems to be your invention. It could mean
> they stood in a circle and shouted at him, with an occasional kick to
> the shins. Or it could mean they really did beat the crap out of him.
> Your quote doesn't say.

This is an amazing response here. I keep coming back to this one here and I
look around to see if I can't find the Cheshire Cat, the Queen of Hearts and
Humpty Dumpty. This is a really work here Graham. You know, sometimes I
think about your restrained output and worry a bit that you don't have
enough fire in your belly to get down to business and create some
thought-provoking microtonal music, but this will do just wonderfully.

At first I was thinking Dadaism - the nonsensical absurdity of life. But
then the Surrealism of Dali came into my thoughts - yet it didn't quite fit
either. But then I realized that this is both and neither. It is a new
creation and a fine one at that. I applaud you on your great triumph, which
goes beyond any modern art I have seen -- it transcends the great creations
of the Masters of 20th Century Art. Graham, if it was up to me, I would
frame your post, highlighting this paragraph, and put it on the wall of a
museum for all to see.

Congratulations on your fine accomplishment my friend!

- Jeff

Even the IRA has shyed away from such tactics BTW

"Jon Szanto " wrote:

> Jeff,
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> > > Are you saying that IRA terror bombings of civilians are "legitimate" and
> > > Al-Qaeda terror bombings are not?
> >
> > yes, of course.
>
> Then I cannot approach anymore dialogue on any of these subjects, as you appear to hold an entirely hypocritical set of ethics. A terrorist bombing of innocent people is just that: terror. If *you* think that it is justified by one group simply because you believe they have a right to utilize that method, to further their cause, how in the hell can you condemn anyone else doing the same?
>
> That you don't agree with Islamic terrorists is very clear, on a philosophical/religious level. But if you allow that it is OK by you for one group to kill others in the manners described, then there is no way to reconcile your condemnation of Islamic terrorists. After all, they are simply attempting to further their cause.
>
> Terrorist bombs are terrorist bombs. None are acceptable.
>
> Jon
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

Jeff,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> on 12/14/02 8:21 PM, Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
>
> > So it doesn't matter how many innocent people are killed, as long as they are
> > killed to support causes you believe are just, right?
>
> Not at all. I am saying that every man has the right to defend himself
> against those who seek to kill him and his family.
>
> The issue is one of self defense.

You aren't making any sense at all now. How in the world were the IRA terror bombings in London "self-defence"?

Jon

on 12/15/02 12:20 AM, Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...> wrote:

>> Not at all. I am saying that every man has the right to defend himself
>> against those who seek to kill him and his family.
>>
>> The issue is one of self defense.
>
> You aren't making any sense at all now. How in the world were the IRA terror
> bombings in London "self-defence"?

Please study your history. It is the English who attacked and occupied
Ireland, not the other way around.

- Jeff

Jeff,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> Please study your history. It is the English who attacked and occupied
> Ireland, not the other way around.

You aren't even trying to listen to anyone else, are you? Of course I know what the genesis of the Irish response was, and I'm not forgiving that. What you seem unwilling to confront is the question of whether the killing of innocent people is acceptable - the very 'legitimate self-defence' that you seem so happy to embrace is just as heinous an act.

Kill, kill, kill. Where has it gotten us, Jeff?

Jon

> Of course I know what the genesis of the Irish response was, and I'm not
> forgiving that.

OK, Jon, I am glad that you understand the history of British oppresion and
genocide against the Irish.

Since yfou understand this, then why may I ask, do you continue to defend
the oppresors while decrying the attempts of the oppressed to break free
from the shackles of their slavery and become free?

English out of Ireland!

- Jeff

Jeff,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> OK, Jon, I am glad that you understand the history of British
> oppresion and genocide against the Irish.

I am not an expert, but I am informed. You neglected to notice that I did not excuse the actions of the British rule.

> Since yfou understand this, then why may I ask, do you continue to
> defend the oppresors

I do not, and I expect you, as an intelligent correspondent, to note that and not keep trying to say that I do.

> while decrying the attempts of the oppressed to break free
> from the shackles of their slavery and become free?

I never decry attempts. You, however, have repeatedly and obviously stepped around my only question to you, which was how it is possible to condone the killing of civlians in a random act of violence.

> English out of Ireland!

I probably don't have a problem with that, if that is what Ireland would like to have happen. It appears that all the wanton killing, on both sides, hasn't accomplished much, has it?

Jon

Alright. I'm glad you don't support the British actions.

> which was how it is possible to condone the killing of civlians in a random
> act of violence.

I don't condone killing civilians in random acts of violence.
Ireland has not submitted to the English invaders. It's Ireland.
Reconciliation is not possible until after the British retreat and return
Ireland to the Irish. The current state of affairs is that Ireland is at war
with the British. The British continue to brutalize and attack the Irish who
attack them.

Al Qaeda was headquartered in Afghanistan. When they attacked us, we went to
their headquarters to rout them out in response. this is an act of
self-defence. The Irish are doing the same. They are defending themselves
nobly against the tyranny of the British invaders. Diplomacy and being
reasonable have been tried for decades by the Irish and it is always
followed by more and more British brutality. Negotiations and diplomacy have
not worked despite repeated attempts. Defending themselves against violent
invaders during an actual war is justified. Sometimes civilians are killed.
This is unfortunate. It is a poor tactic to attack civilians, although it
did work for the US at the end of WWII, something that although I have to
admit worked, I did not agree with. Despite my personal feeling about this,
I am not there on the battlefield with the Irish and I can not second-guess
what they need to do. If the British want the Irish to stop defending
themselves they have two and only two choices - they can kill every Irishman
(which is their current plan it seems)... or they can leave Ireland. Because
they Irish will never. Never. Never surrender.

I might note that right now the Irish have been able to regain some power
over their nation and that the result has been that while the English are
mired in poverty, drug use and high unemployment, the Irish economy made a
terrific advancement and is one of the strongest in Europe. England tries to
spead their brand of Aryan supremacy throughout the nations they attempt to
conquer and plunder and then use the plunder as evidence of their
superiority. The reality is that now that most English colonies have
rebelled (starting with us) and there is no more plunder to steal, we are
able to evaluate the full glory of the British Empire my seeing it in all
its nakedness. Without things stolen from others, they have little more than
high crime, poverty, despair and hopelessness. If anything, it should be the
Irish who should be running England because the British government has no
moral authority to rule.

- Jeff

- Jeff

Jeff,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> Alright. I'm glad you don't support the British actions.

I never said I did.

> I don't condone killing civilians in random acts of violence.

Therefore you would condemn many of the IRA bombings that have occured in the past?

> The current state of affairs is that Ireland is at war
> with the British.

Really? Interesting.

> Al Qaeda was headquartered in Afghanistan. When they attacked us,
> we went to their headquarters to rout them out in response. this
> is an act of self-defence. The Irish are doing the same.

Going and attacking the actual Al-Qaeda camps and hide-outs is one thing. Blowing up a bar in Belfast, or setting off a car bomb in central London (nowhere near a military or government institution) is hardly comparable. But it all seems the same to you.

> They are defending themselves nobly against the tyranny of the
> British invaders.

I can think of a lot of ways to defend one's self nobly. Killing people in bars, Protestants and Catholics alike, doesn't seem noble to me. It's just more killing.

> Sometimes civilians are killed. This is unfortunate.

We're not talking about collateral damage, where civilians near a military or government facility are struck as well, but everyday civilian gathering places. Just like the Palestinian terrorists blowing up busses in Israel, instead of blowing up military vehicles. Unfortunate is a paltry word to describe such targeting.

> It is a poor tactic to attack civilians

Tactics are of little consequence to innocent victims.

> If the British want the Irish to stop defending
> themselves they have two and only two choices - they can kill
> every Irishman (which is their current plan it seems)...

I can't believe you said that. Their "current plan"??

> Because the Irish will never. Never. Never surrender.

Good. I hope they have their independance, ASAP.

OK, I've had enough. You don't need to respond, because I'm going to stop reading metatuning for a while. You and I look at the world in very, very different ways, and I see no point in carrying this any further. I hope you find peace amid all the chaos.

Regards,
Jon

on 12/15/02 7:27 PM, Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...> wrote:

> You don't need to respond, ... You and I look at the world in very, very
different ways

That's OK Jon, it's good to take a break from the newsgroups.

One think I will say that we both agree on is that we are both completely
opposed to abortion under all circumstances and I admire your convictions
here.

- Jeff

yes time for a break for me too

"X. J. Scott" wrote:

> on 12/15/02 7:27 PM, Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...> wrote:
>
> > You don't need to respond, ... You and I look at the world in very, very
> different ways
>
> That's OK Jon, it's good to take a break from the newsgroups.
>
> One think I will say that we both agree on is that we are both completely
> opposed to abortion under all circumstances and I admire your convictions
> here.
>
> - Jeff
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

Jeff,

As I get ready to take my break from this group, I want something to get posted right now, regarding the following:

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> One think I will say that we both agree on is that we are both
> completely opposed to abortion under all circumstances and I admire
> your convictions here.

I don't want anyone be in error about what I believe, and that no one who might come to this group casually, or ends up seeing your quote while doing a search for something gets the wrong idea. I want to state for the record that abortion is not a subject you and I have discussed, or that I have offered a public thought on; you do not know my views on this, and you have nothing on which to base either admiration or condemnation *in this specific matter*.

Since I am leaving, I would appreciate if you wouldn't attribute to me any further beliefs or opinions. If I have any thoughts I want to share publically, I know how to post.

Regards,
Jon

hi Jeff (and Jon),

> From: "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 1:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: beatings
>
>
> ... The reality is that now that most English colonies
> have rebelled (starting with us) and there is no more
> plunder to steal, we are able to evaluate the full glory
> of the British Empire my seeing it in all its nakedness.
> Without things stolen from others, they have little more
> than high crime, poverty, despair and hopelessness.

and guess what America would have "without things
stolen from others" ... try "high crime, poverty,
despair, and hopelessness"... and this are problems
that we already have, despite being the (materially)
richest nation on the planet.

-monz

on 12/16/02 1:33 AM, Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...> wrote:

> I want to state for the record that abortion is not a subject you and I have
> discussed, or that I have offered a public thought on

Jon, you have stated clearly and publically many times your commitment to
the value that human life is sacred and that the killing of innocents is
always wrong. And I agree with you on this.

Best,

- Jeff

on 12/15/02 7:27 PM, Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@...> wrote:

>> I don't condone killing civilians in random acts of violence.
>
> Therefore you would condemn many of the IRA bombings that have occured in the
> past?

I've given this some thought and I have to say that Jon has affected my
thinking in this matter. That part of the Irish resistence that is comprised
solely of actual random acts of violence against innocent civilian targets
is morally wrong. Thanks Jon. I was wrong and you are right.

Despite this I do support the Irish resistence that has been going on for so
long that is not comprised of these actions. I understand though that they
have tried everything and became rather desparate during the nadir of these
activities - just as the US was as unfortunately desparate in WWII.

- Jeff

jeff, it's clear from all your posts here that you view people not as
individuals, but as members of ethnic/national/religious groups.

that's why you're considered a bigot around here. maybe bigot's not
the right word. but you're certainly in the same class as an osama
bin laden, advocating that one group perform terrorist retribution
against any/all members of another group/nation/religion, *some* of
whose members perpetrated crimes (real or perceived) against the
first group.

don't you and osama see that this philosophy leads to an unending,
ever-expanding spiral of violence?

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
>
> > Of course I know what the genesis of the Irish response was, and
I'm not
> > forgiving that.
>
> OK, Jon, I am glad that you understand the history of British
oppresion and
> genocide against the Irish.
>
> Since yfou understand this, then why may I ask, do you continue to
defend
> the oppresors while decrying the attempts of the oppressed to break
free
> from the shackles of their slavery and become free?
>
> English out of Ireland!
>
> - Jeff

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:

> That part of the Irish resistence that is comprised
> solely of actual random acts of violence against innocent civilian
targets
> is morally wrong.

well that's the part that was originally being discussed here. i
don't know where you think the conversation veered to encompass the
entire irish struggle, but no one announced such a change of subject,
so your comments ended up being an unequivocal, qualified (by
nationality) support of terrorism.

> Thanks Jon. I was wrong and you are right.

excellent jeff. i will henceforth think of you as an individual, with
your own wisdoms and fallabilities as regards any subject, and not
class you into any larger group such as "bigot" :)

on 12/16/02 7:57 PM, wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@...> wrote:

> that's why you're considered a bigot around here. maybe bigot's not
> the right word. but you're certainly in the same class as an osama
> bin laden

Sticks and stones, Mr. Paul Erlich.

Do you have any decent microtonal music that you have written or is life a
big bowl of numbers and puerile fits of name-calling and personal attacks to
you? Speaking of lies, I can't think of many lies bigger than your hrmonic
entropy theory, which is the biggest crock of nonsense floating around in
the sad and bizarre cult of numbers and fanatical dedication to
no-music-making that you have founded and led impressionable others into.

- Jeff

on 12/16/02 8:13 PM, wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@...> wrote:

> i will henceforth think of you as an individual, with
> your own wisdoms and fallabilities as regards any subject, and not
> class you into any larger group such as "bigot"

Hello Paul Erlich,

So that leaves me merely (in your words) a liar that is
"in the same class as an Osama bin Laden".

I can't keep track of all the vorious theroies everyone has -- are you among
those who say that the jews and not osama bin laden blew up the world trade
center? Or do you believe that osama was behind it all, as he confessed to?
I just want to get straight exactly the sorts of crimes which you honestly
believe I am out there committing.

- Jeff

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> on 12/16/02 7:57 PM, wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
wrote:
>
> > that's why you're considered a bigot around here. maybe bigot's
not
> > the right word. but you're certainly in the same class as an osama
> > bin laden
>
> Sticks and stones, Mr. Paul Erlich.
>
> Do you have any decent microtonal music that you have written

sure. check the tuning punks.

> or is life a
> big bowl of numbers and puerile fits of name-calling and personal
>attacks to
> you? Speaking of lies, I can't think of many lies bigger than your
>hrmonic
> entropy theory, which is the biggest crock of nonsense floating
>around in
> the sad and bizarre cult of numbers and fanatical dedication to
> no-music-making that you have founded and led impressionable others
>into.
>
> - Jeff

i'm sorry you feel this way. why don't you come stay with me in
boston sometime and see all this no-music-making that i'm supposedly
involved in.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> on 12/16/02 8:13 PM, wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
wrote:
>
> > i will henceforth think of you as an individual, with
> > your own wisdoms and fallabilities as regards any subject, and not
> > class you into any larger group such as "bigot"
>
> Hello Paul Erlich,
>
> So that leaves me merely (in your words) a liar that is
> "in the same class as an Osama bin Laden".

no, that's what i'm retracting, thanks to your exchange with jon
szanto which i had not read yet.

> I can't keep track of all the vorious theroies everyone has -- are
>you among
> those who say that the jews and not osama bin laden blew up the
>world trade
> center?

i haven't seen anyone on this list claiming that, and i've been one
of those here to decry this vile accusation, one which enjoys popular
support across the muslim world.

on 12/16/02 11:03 PM, wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@...> wrote:

> i haven't seen anyone on this list claiming that, and i've been one
> of those here to decry this vile accusation, one which enjoys popular
> support across the muslim world.

OK, well that's a relief that you accept Osama's confession at face value,
as do I. Others don't and it concerns me: there are indeed a few on this
list who believe with certainty that Osama was not involved and that the
jewish conspiracy theory has some credibility and they have publically
posted here to that effect. You can check the archives if interested.

- Jeff

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:

> Speaking of lies, I can't think of many lies bigger than your
>hrmonic
> entropy theory, which is the biggest crock of nonsense floating
>around in
> the sad and bizarre cult of numbers and fanatical dedication to
> no-music-making that you have founded and led impressionable others
>into.
>
> - Jeff

where did you get this amusing crap -- from brian?

i don't know what "impressionable others" you have in mind, but if
you care to name one, i will happily, publically, and with full
sincerity post a lengthy plea to them to choose music-making over no-
music-making, even (or especially) if it means the abandonment of any
and all numerical manipulations, ponderings, rules, diagrams, etc. i
would so choose myself if i *had* to choose . . . fortunately, one
does not preclude the other, and so i have participated in ongoing
conversations about music theory (which can get mathematical at
times), etc. . . . so when your hero brian was posting *reams* of
numerical and music-theoretical material, and i had the audacity to
go over it and point our errors (which happened to be quite
numerous), i apparently hit a very sore nerve, which then caused
brian to change his strategy -- instead of posting reams of numbers,
he would maintain that the numbers were never relevant at all and
would post instead reams of myths about yours truly and other list
members . . . for "impressionable others" to digest and spew forth at
will.

oh well, it doesn't bother me too much, i'm out here making music
and -- good news -- ara will be my roommate starting jan. 15th, which
means that our beginning efforts in 22- and 31-equal (some of which
you may have heard) will become a mere seed for much microtonal music
to come . . . at least this is my hope, and it's been a long time
coming . . .

on harmonic entropy, if there's something specific you'd like to say
about it, say it, or since it's "on topic", please do so on the
harmonic entropy list itself, i encourage you to do your very best to
knock some sense into these poor impressionable souls that i've
kidnapped from their intended calling as music-makers!!

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> on 12/16/02 11:03 PM, wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
wrote:
>
> > i haven't seen anyone on this list claiming that, and i've been
one
> > of those here to decry this vile accusation, one which enjoys
popular
> > support across the muslim world.
>
> OK, well that's a relief that you accept Osama's confession at face
value,
> as do I. Others don't and it concerns me: there are indeed a few on
this
> list who believe with certainty that Osama was not involved and
that the
> jewish conspiracy theory has some credibility and they have
publically
> posted here to that effect. You can check the archives if
interested.
>
> - Jeff

i've been reading this list all along and i doubt that there is
actually anyone here who implied that "the jewish conspiracy theory
has some credibility". i suspect you may have read that into
someone's remarks. but i could easily be proven wrong, and would very
much like to know who among us might be making such implications. my
dad was very nearly killed on 9/11, too bad the jewish conspiracy
didn't let him know in advance!

Paul,

> i've been reading this list all along and i doubt that there is
> actually anyone here who implied that "the jewish conspiracy theory
> has some credibility". i suspect you may have read that into
> someone's remarks. but i could easily be proven wrong, and would very
> much like to know who among us might be making such implications.

I have responded to your request privately.

> my dad was very nearly killed on 9/11, too bad the jewish conspiracy
> didn't let him know in advance!

My cousin was across the street, saw the planes hit, saw the bodies jumping
out, and the building she was in was later destroyed from the rubble from
the collapse. Her friends were killed. She has not handled it well but is
trying to get by. There is not a person in America whom this despicable act
has not personally affected.

- Jeff

Agreed . I think Jeff that you are seriously losing it!

"wallyesterpaulrus " wrote:

>
>
> i've been reading this list all along and i doubt that there is
> actually anyone here who implied that "the jewish conspiracy theory
> has some credibility".

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

Sound like em to me too!

"wallyesterpaulrus " wrote:

>
>
> where did you get this amusing crap -- from brian?
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

on 12/17/02 12:26 AM, Kraig Grady wrote:

> Agreed. I think Jeff that you are seriously losing it!

Ah so I am insane as well? Such a sweet delight.

Keep it coming -- little could make me more ecstatic than your passionate
words of derision. The truth is so painful to you and your only response can
be to hurl insults at me. But I don't mind at all. I drink them up like the
sweetest nectar and it nourishes me.

- Jeff

goodbye

"X. J. Scott" wrote:

> on 12/17/02 12:26 AM, Kraig Grady wrote:
>
> > Agreed. I think Jeff that you are seriously losing it!
>
> Ah so I am insane as well? Such a sweet delight.
>
> Keep it coming -- little could make me more ecstatic than your passionate
> words of derision. The truth is so painful to you and your only response can
> be to hurl insults at me. But I don't mind at all. I drink them up like the
> sweetest nectar and it nourishes me.
>
> - Jeff
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

> where did you get this amusing crap -- from brian?

Paul, don't you see where I am coming from with this?
Have you ever heard of 'responding in kind'?

You come in with this "Jeff Scott is Osama
bin Laden's twin brother" stuff and I just quote
what you said and come right back at you with a
cut and paste of the generic "Paul Erlich is
the spawn of Satan" stuff.

"Paul Erlich is a three-headed nine-armed
half-ape half-monkey half carp and half-salamander."

"Paul Erlich has fourteen grandmothers and none of them are human."

"Paul Erlich is a shapeshifter from the 7th dimension. He lives 49 miles
beneath the oceans of androgynia and eats dimethylethylhydroxitonium gas
cakes twice each afternoon for with his tea."

Etc etc etc blah blah blah

Same as the "Jeff Scott is Osama bin Laden" "Jeff Scott is the worst sort of
bigot" "Jeff Scott is mentally ill." etc etc blah blah blah.

Ho hum.

- Jeff, mother of Osama bin laden and Saddam Hussein's secret love child

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> > where did you get this amusing crap -- from brian?
>
> Paul, don't you see where I am coming from with this?
> Have you ever heard of 'responding in kind'?

yup, i just wanted to see how far you were willing to take it.
apparently brian did influence a number of people with his ad hominem
ravings -- i wasn't sure if you were one of them or not . . .

> You come in with this "Jeff Scott is Osama
> bin Laden's twin brother" stuff and I just quote
> what you said and come right back at you with a
> cut and paste of the generic "Paul Erlich is
> the spawn of Satan" stuff.
>
> "Paul Erlich is a three-headed nine-armed
> half-ape half-monkey half carp and half-salamander."
>
> "Paul Erlich has fourteen grandmothers and none of them are human."
>
> "Paul Erlich is a shapeshifter from the 7th dimension. He lives 49
>miles
> beneath the oceans of androgynia and eats
>dimethylethylhydroxitonium gas
> cakes twice each afternoon for with his tea."
>
> Etc etc etc blah blah blah
>
> Same as the "Jeff Scott is Osama bin Laden" "Jeff Scott is the
worst sort of
> bigot" "Jeff Scott is mentally ill." etc etc blah blah blah.
>
> Ho hum.
>
> - Jeff, mother of Osama bin laden and Saddam Hussein's secret love
>child

love it!

fair enough jeff!

best,
paul