Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup metatuning so much for freelists!

hmm . . . when i try posting to the new tuning-math group today, i
get this error message:

The original message was received at Mon, 29 Jul 2002 21:21:32 GMT
from user10.acadian-asset.com [208.253.47.10] (may be forged)

----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<tuning-math@...>

----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to turing.freelists.org. [206.53.239.180]:
>>> RCPT To:<tuning-math@...>
<<< 554 Service unavailable; [199.171.54.106] blocked using
relays.osirusoft.com, reason:
http://www.appliedinfogroup.com/html/emarketing.html (services
(appending, also look for 'opt-out')) 554 <tuning-
math@...>... Service unavailable

anyone know what's going on here?

🔗jonszanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

----- Original Message -----
From: "jonszanto" <JSZANTO@...>

> --- In metatuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > hmm . . . when i try posting to the new tuning-math group today, i
> > get this error message:
> >
> > anyone know what's going on here?
>
> Look's like a generic 'server is down' type thing. Have you
>written anyone privately who actually *belongs* the the
>alien tuning-math list?

Alien?

chuckle....

* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com
* http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley

🔗paulerlich <paul@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., "jonszanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> --- In metatuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > hmm . . . when i try posting to the new tuning-math group today,
i
> > get this error message:
> >
> > anyone know what's going on here?
>
> Look's like a generic 'server is down' type thing.

ok, jon, you seem to have a better grasp of this than i do, so tell
me this -- if the server is down, why did my post appear on the
freelists list (and in my e-mail via freelists) after i posted it to
the yahoo list (to which the freeliste list is subscribed), but every
time i try posting to the freelists list directly, i get the error
message?

🔗jonszanto <JSZANTO@...>

Paul,

Hey, first off, the "alien" designation was just a silly, as in 'outside of this (yahoo) world' kind-of-thing...

Now, as to your next question, I completely sympathize with you trying to put this into a sentence or two! That said, I can't quite make out what you are saying in the following:

--- In metatuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> ok, jon, you seem to have a better grasp of this than i do, so tell
> me this -- if the server is down, why did my post appear on the
> freelists list (and in my e-mail via freelists) after i posted it to
> the yahoo list (to which the freeliste list is subscribed), but every
> time i try posting to the freelists list directly, i get the error
> message?

Let me ask questions in some kind of order:

> if the server is down, why did my post appear on the
> freelists list (and in my e-mail via freelists)

The latter meaning in your email, as the messages go *out* from the freelists server? And when you say "on the freelists list", do you mean you know it was there because:

a. the message came to your email singly?
b. the message showed up in a digest?
c. you saw it in a list of messages, like Yahoo?

I thought freelists was an 'email only' list with no web viewing. Carrying on...

> after i posted it to the yahoo list (to which the freeliste
> list is subscribed)

What does that mean? How can one list be subscribed to another?

> but every time i try posting to the freelists list directly

From your email program? From a webmail program?

> i get the error message?

There must be an error! :)

Sometimes servers will spit out stuff like that when they are overloaded; usually the mail is queued in some fashion, and you'll get a response if it can't push the mail straight through. Tell you the truth though: about the only way I'd hazard more than the generic guess is if I saw a copy of the generated message, complete with *full* header information.

Again, it seems like a convoluted question you asked, necessitated by a convoluted way of doing the list. If it's of any importance, maybe you can clarify a teeny bit. OTOH, if it's working OK now, might as well forget about it...

Cheers,
Jon

🔗paulerlich <paul@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., "jonszanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> Paul,
>
> Hey, first off, the "alien" designation was just a silly, as
in 'outside of this (yahoo) world' kind-of-thing...
>
> Now, as to your next question, I completely sympathize with you
trying to put this into a sentence or two! That said, I can't quite
make out what you are saying in the following:
>
> --- In metatuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > ok, jon, you seem to have a better grasp of this than i do, so
tell
> > me this -- if the server is down, why did my post appear on the
> > freelists list (and in my e-mail via freelists) after i posted it
to
> > the yahoo list (to which the freeliste list is subscribed), but
every
> > time i try posting to the freelists list directly, i get the
error
> > message?
>
> Let me ask questions in some kind of order:
>
> > if the server is down, why did my post appear on the
> > freelists list (and in my e-mail via freelists)
>
> The latter meaning in your email, as the messages go *out* from the
>freelists server?

yes.

>And when you say "on the freelists list", do you mean you know it
was there because:
>
> a. the message came to your email singly?

yes.

> c. you saw it in a list of messages, like Yahoo?

yes.

> I thought freelists was an 'email only' list with no web viewing.

there is web viewing, but there's no web posting.

Carrying on...
>
> > after i posted it to the yahoo list (to which the freeliste
> > list is subscribed)
>
> What does that mean? How can one list be subscribed to another?

very easily! just enter the e-mail address of one list as a
subscriber to the second list. carl and/or gene did this.

> > but every time i try posting to the freelists list directly
>
> From your email program?

yes.

> > i get the error message?
>
> There must be an error! :)

carl's latest theory is that somehow, somewhere, i became classified
as "spam" just within the last couple of days. he gave me a website
to run some tests, and i e-mailed him the results of those
tests . . . so we'll see . . .

> Tell you the truth though: about the only way I'd hazard more than
>the generic guess is if I saw a copy of the generated message,
>complete with *full* header information.

i didn't know i was leaving anything out!

> Again, it seems like a convoluted question you asked, necessitated
>by a convoluted way of doing the list.

?????????????????????????? not at all. the "normal" way of doing the
list is all i really care about, and is what didn't work.
the "convoluted" way did happen to work, but that should be taken as
a clue to solve the original problem, and that's all.

🔗jonszanto <JSZANTO@...>

Paul,

You cleared up quite a bit, but I can't figure out how you can have a message bounce back to you and simultaneously go through to the list.

--- In metatuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> >
> > What does that mean? How can one list be subscribed to another?
>
> very easily! just enter the e-mail address of one list as a
> subscriber to the second list. carl and/or gene did this.

This doesn't make sense to me. If you entered the email address that one posts to, say for instance, metatuning@yahoogroups.com, that would mean that every message to the new tuningmath would show up there. They haven't.

> carl's latest theory is that somehow, somewhere, i became
> classified as "spam" just within the last couple of days.

Well, if true, that's lousy, and I'd certainly raise hell with freelists, if there are human beings involved.

> >Tell you the truth though: about the only way I'd hazard more
> >than
> >the generic guess is if I saw a copy of the generated message,
> >complete with *full* header information.
>
> i didn't know i was leaving anything out!

I didn't mean on purpose, but most email programs allow you to show "complete headers" (or similar wording) that show all the internet tracking/packet information contained in the header. Usually there is quite a bit.

> > Again, it seems like a convoluted question you asked, necessitated
> >by a convoluted way of doing the list.
>
> ?????????????????????????? not at all. the "normal" way of doing the
> list is all i really care about, and is what didn't work.

Right. I guess "convuluted" was subscribing a list to another list, which I have *never* heard of (especially without asking the permission of each and every person on said list to see if they wanted to be subscribed somewhere else as well, etc.)

Good luck to you and the rest of the gang. Did you guys completely abandon the yahoo math list? All I've seen, for the most part, are posts from Gene (not to mention traffic has been light on all the lists lately; ah, summer...).

Lastly, "wallyesterpaulrus": very clever!

Cheers,
Jon

🔗paulerlich <paul@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., "jonszanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> Paul,
>
> You cleared up quite a bit, but I can't figure out how you can have
>a message bounce back to you and simultaneously go through to the
>list.

it didn't -- those were two different messages! one (actually many
attempts) bounced back, while another (that posted through yahoo)
made it through. clearer?

> --- In metatuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > >
> > > What does that mean? How can one list be subscribed to another?
> >
> > very easily! just enter the e-mail address of one list as a
> > subscriber to the second list. carl and/or gene did this.
>
> This doesn't make sense to me. If you entered the email address
>that one posts to, say for instance, metatuning@y..., that would
>mean that every message to the new tuningmath would show up there.
>They haven't.

it's the other way around, jon. every single message at the yahoo
tuning-math group has also showed up on the freelists tuning-math
group, since the latter is subscribed as a "member" of the former.

> Right. I guess "convuluted" was subscribing a list to another list,
>which I have *never* heard of (especially without asking the
>permission of each and every person on said list to see if they
>wanted to be subscribed somewhere else as well, etc.)

in this case, carl simply wanted to be able to read all the yahoo
tuning-math postings, without actually being directly subscribed to
any yahoo forums . . . i guess he hates the advertising/spamming that
much.

🔗jonszanto <JSZANTO@...>

Paul,

--- In metatuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> it didn't -- those were two different messages! one (actually many
> attempts) bounced back, while another (that posted through yahoo)
> made it through. clearer?

Quite a bit. So (to be even more clear [Everclear?]): were the ones that bounced posted from one email program/service, and the one that made it through from a different source, such as an online mail program? In other words, maybe someone@... would bounce where someone@... might not.

> it's the other way around, jon. every single message at the yahoo
> tuning-math group has also showed up on the freelists tuning-math
> group, since the latter is subscribed as a "member" of the former.

Ohhhhhhh.

> in this case, carl simply wanted to be able to...

OK.

What, no comment on the email handle? :)

Cheers,
Jon

🔗paulerlich <paul@...>

jon (or anyone),

in case you're still interested, this is the source of the problem i
was having, according to the guy here at work:

**********************************************************************
Paul,
This is because we use UUnet to do our mail relay for us and
they suck. They have not locked down their SMTP servers so they have
become "relay sites" for spammers. In turn people have begun to
blacklist those UUnet mail servers that are open relays. I'll be
dealing with this in the next few days so you should be able to post
again shortly.

-Sean
**********************************************************************

it appears that freelists is one of those "people" who have begun to
blacklist those servers, while yahoogroups isn't . . . yet. anyway,
all should be well within a few days.

thanks,
paul

🔗paulerlich <paul@...>

🔗jonszanto <JSZANTO@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> in case you're still interested, this is the source of the problem
> i was having, according to the guy here at work:

Oh, man, that is *not* a good scenario! I've seen this happen with other clients, and you need to get the company off that UUnet service ASAP. In this event, you were fortunate to get a bounce notice; many times the mail you send out just gets dumped, leaving you with the eery situation of never knowing if your intended recipient actually gets the mail or not.

Fun it is not.

Best of luck,
Jon

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗paulerlich <paul@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., "jonszanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> --- In metatuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > in case you're still interested, this is the source of the
problem
> > i was having, according to the guy here at work:
>
> Oh, man, that is *not* a good scenario! I've seen this happen with
>other clients, and you need to get the company off that UUnet
>service ASAP.

you got it -- in fact, the next message from sean was:

"This, and a few other lovely SPAM related issues, on top of the
collapse of WorldCom (UUnet's owner) is making us dump them as our
ISP very soon."