Re: [metatuning] ECM... Beautiful 12

Hi Jacky,

ECM records were a big part of my listening habits growing up too, and
I've got dozens and dozens of them. As a young guitarist I couldn't
think of a better label either, as they featured quite a run of
amazing guitarists. Most of them were wonderfully personal stylists
too, guys who really carved out their own niche. Abercrombie, whom you
mention, was the most versatile or chameleon-like of the bunch--I've
been on a bit of an Abercrombie retrospective here as of late, and I
was just listening to Timeless the other day, and I still like it
better than any of the Mahavishnu records.

But guitarist or no guitarist, I loved the ECM esthetic. It didn't
always work, but you know what... it mostly did, and that's pretty
amazing considering the astonishing amount of recordings that I've
heard. Good music makes the tuning pretty unimportant. Unfortunately
the same could be said of lackluster music, and that's why I've always
been against music as tuning examples. Because rather than arguing for
the tunings, I've always felt these sorts of things make musicians
whose interest is music (not tuning) look at microtonality as an
underwhelming endeavor peopled by no playing geeky sorts--sorry.

Interestingly, ECM has really got behind the Maneris, and they have
several recordings out on the label. Needless to say these are
microtonal, but in some sense, who cares. I mean microtonality's cool,
no doubt about it. It's just not cooler than music--not by a long
shot!

take care,

--Dan Stearns

----- Original Message -----
From: "jacky_ligon" <jacky_ligon@...>
To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 7:23 AM
Subject: [metatuning] ECM... Beautiful 12

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> Been listening to quite a bit of ECM here lately.
>
> Even though there's quite a bit of "12" on there, I hear much
> beautiful micro-inflection from the likes of:
>
> Jan Garbarek
> Terje Rypdal
> Eberhard Weber (one of the Gods of Bass to me)
> Ralph Towner (perfection! what more can I say?)
> John Abercrombie (another fave)
>
> ...and so many, many more. So many masterful players!
>
> If only there were a micro-label of this quality, I'd buy everything
> they offered.
>
> J:L
>
>
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--- In metatuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> ECM records were a big part of my listening habits

Ditto.

> But guitarist or no guitarist, I loved the ECM esthetic.

Yep, and I'm no guitarist!

> Because rather than arguing for
> the tunings, I've always felt these sorts of things make musicians
> whose interest is music (not tuning) look at microtonality as an
> underwhelming endeavor peopled by no playing geeky sorts--sorry.

:)

> I mean microtonality's cool, no doubt about it. It's just not
> cooler than music--not by a long shot!

Dang it, Dan, why do you always manage to say exactly what I want to
say, utilizing 95% less verbiage? Must be a gift...

Cheers,
Jon

Hi Jacky,

At some point when I was in my early 20s I had a spontaneous,
auto-exorcism and swore that I'd try my best to not sound too much
like whatever it was that I was in love with musically at any
paricular time. I have a million tapes from before that time where I
sound like everybody--everybody but but myself that is! (I was always
a very good mimic).

Doing this reduced my musical output by about 95%, not a good thing
really, but I felt it was necessary at the time if I was ever going to
try and say what I wanted to say.

These days I'm plagued by all to human personal problems of the
domestic sort, and *everything* is difficult. But once an act of God
has occurred, and I can somehow think and do artistically meaningful
things again, I think I'll be ready to loosen up, and shake a little
of the severely austere approach. I think I'm stuck with the way I
play by now, and I'd like to tackle some of my old influences from a
hopefully fresh perspective. Some day, god willing.

Personally, I never liked Shakti. I far preferred McLaughlin's own
Indian fusion on the flip side of My Goals Beyond in fact. But the
McLaughlin that I think is absolutely timeless is his very first
recording as a leader, Extrapolation. Surman and Oxley add an awful
lot, especially Surman's baritone, but McLaughlin never sounded this
good to me again. I think Coryell, who's often considered McLaughlin's
lesser, had a much more interesting and varied career. Yes, Coryell
was wildly spotty, but he took many more interesting chances as well,
and I don't think there's ever been a more prolific guitarist of that
stature--the guy must have a million records!

The Maneris' music is 72, but not in any sort of a rigid, easy way
that seems so popular around the tuning list. It's music about Joe and
the exceptionally interesting life he's led, and Joe's son is Mat, so
it's Mat's music as a birthright too. They're amazing, but they may
not be what you think of when you think of the classic ECM sound. It
works, but it works bone dry on Leo too.

Of their ECM recordings try the father son duo, or Mat's new acoustic
recording, Trinity. Anything with Randy Peterson will be that language
spoken by the people who really know it inside and out too. I haven't
heard the Maneris-Barre Phillips recording yet, but since Phillips has
an easily identifiable ECM persona that you'll recognize, maybe that's
a good place to start as well... but my suggestion would be to hear
them without an 'outside' voice first, as that should help put a true
face on their sound.

take care,

--Dan Stearns

----- Original Message -----
From: "jacky_ligon" <jacky_ligon@...>
To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 8:56 AM
Subject: [metatuning] Re: ECM... Beautiful 12

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> --- In metatuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> > Hi Jacky,
> >
> > ECM records were a big part of my listening habits growing up too,
> and
> > I've got dozens and dozens of them.
>
> Dan,
>
> Wow! Fascinating! This explains much - AND I can hear this vibe in
> your two recent guitar MP3s, which I loved!!
>
>
> As a young guitarist I couldn't
> > think of a better label either, as they featured quite a run of
> > amazing guitarists. Most of them were wonderfully personal
stylists
> > too, guys who really carved out their own niche.
>
> Yeah - this is one of the reasons I find myself returning to this
> music on occasion. Perhaps to remind myself.
>
> Abercrombie, whom you
> > mention, was the most versatile or chameleon-like of the
bunch--I've
> > been on a bit of an Abercrombie retrospective here as of late, and
I
> > was just listening to Timeless the other day, and I still like it
> > better than any of the Mahavishnu records.
>
> I would have to agree. Hey - you know, I read an interview with L.
> Shankar once about his experience with Shakti. T'was very
interesting
> and enlightening. Basically - and paraphrasing - he said something
> like all the fast virtuoso displays were a big turn off for him.
> Personally, I like L. Shankar's solo work better than anything with
> McLaughlin. He is a player of exquisite perfection. He can smoke the
> neck on the violin if he wants to, but obviously that's not
> what "it's all about".
>
> Somehow one grows to appreciate the artistry of controlled
> understatement over the years. I admire those that can do this well.
>
> > But guitarist or no guitarist, I loved the ECM esthetic. It didn't
> > always work, but you know what... it mostly did, and that's pretty
> > amazing considering the astonishing amount of recordings that I've
> > heard.
>
> I'm with you Brother. So much of it just plain rules - and is fresh
> to the ear as anything out there. Like today, I was listening to
some
> old Oregon. It's perfection!
>
> > Good music makes the tuning pretty unimportant.
>
> The crowd roars! A standing ovation!
>
> Man - you are so right about this. And too often I feel that we
> totally discount the fact that many of these players are using very
> microtonally inflected musical gestures in their music. Kind-a like
> the "Free-Pitch" stuff we've heard our resident Bass Master Starrett
> speak about and demonstrate. I love the idea of reacting to what the
> heart and ear says is good in a moment of passionate improvisation.
> Often on an instrument like the guitar it is very micro-sounding,
> without being shackled to specific pitch concepts. This is the soul
> of music - at least part of it!
>
> > Unfortunately
> > the same could be said of lackluster music, and that's why I've
> always
> > been against music as tuning examples.
>
> Well - it's interesting to me that you mention this here, because it
> is something that has been troubling my mind for quite a while. I
> feel that the presentation of "Music as Theory" is a trap of a sort.
> And that's why I also feel, that even though I can talk about the
> tunings I use, and present occasional examples of them - I feel that
> overall, what I do *is not theory*. I think that when we make the
> effort to make it live in music, it passes beyond the theory
> *barrier* and becomes *actualized* - no longer theory.
>
> It's almost like Varese:
>
> "I don't write experimental music..."
>
> > Because rather than arguing for
> > the tunings, I've always felt these sorts of things make musicians
> > whose interest is music (not tuning) look at microtonality as an
> > underwhelming endeavor peopled by no playing geeky sorts--sorry.
>
> Again - I agree. I think what we suffer from most in this thing is
> our "presentation" of it all. From the outside it has a
> somewhat "cult-like" appearance, because the focus is not always on
> the music, but frequently - too frequently - is stuck in a
> theoretical "never-never land".
>
> Here's an analogy:
>
> Imagine if a group of theorists and composers began to try to put
> forth examples of music based on the materials that the instruments
> were made of, like:
>
> "Here's an example of music made with a Mahogany instrument."
>
> "Here's an example of music made with a Oak instrument."
>
> "Here's an example of music made with a Bamboo instrument." etc...
>
> Now - do you think anyone would be interested in hearing this
outside
> of an extremely narrow group of "theorists and composers" who might
> appreciate this kind of thing?
>
> Should be a pretty easy thing to answer, and looks allot like the
way
> microtonality and "Theory and Music" appears to those outside our
> world of number.
>
> > Interestingly, ECM has really got behind the Maneris, and they
have
> > several recordings out on the label. Needless to say these are
> > microtonal, but in some sense, who cares.
>
> Wow! I was totally unaware of this! Have you heard it? So it's all
72
> equal - right?
>
> > I mean microtonality's cool,
> > no doubt about it. It's just not cooler than music--not by a long
> > shot!
>
> A profound thing to say and internalize.
>
>
> Thanks Dan,
>
> Jacky
>
> > take care,
> >
> > --Dan Stearns
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "jacky_ligon" <jacky_ligon@y...>
> > To: <metatuning@y...>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 7:23 AM
> > Subject: [metatuning] ECM... Beautiful 12
> >
> > >
> > > Been listening to quite a bit of ECM here lately.
> > >
> > > Even though there's quite a bit of "12" on there, I hear much
> > > beautiful micro-inflection from the likes of:
> > >
> > > Jan Garbarek
> > > Terje Rypdal
> > > Eberhard Weber (one of the Gods of Bass to me)
> > > Ralph Towner (perfection! what more can I say?)
> > > John Abercrombie (another fave)
> > >
> > > ...and so many, many more. So many masterful players!
> > >
> > > If only there were a micro-label of this quality, I'd buy
> everything
> > > they offered.
> > >
> > > J:L
>
>
>
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--- In metatuning@y..., "jacky_ligon" <jacky_ligon@y...> wrote:

> > Interestingly, ECM has really got behind the Maneris, and they
have
> > several recordings out on the label. Needless to say these are
> > microtonal, but in some sense, who cares.
>
> Wow! I was totally unaware of this! Have you heard it? So it's all
72
> equal - right?

not by a long shot. papa is constantly thinking in terms of cents
inflections from a 72 grid, and son plays in free-pitch manner on the
violin -- at least he does on the recordings with steve lantner. so
really, marc jones's infinity tuning is what we're talking about here.

--- In metatuning@y..., "jacky_ligon" <jacky_ligon@y...> wrote:

> Paul,
>
> That's pretty cool. I didn't know that Marc had worked with these
> guys.

he did???

> BTW - what the hey is "marc jones's infinity tuning" anyhow?

infinity-equal -- the total "pitch continuum".

Jacky,

--- In metatuning@y..., "jacky_ligon" <jacky_ligon@y...> wrote:
> BTW - what the hey is "marc jones's infinity tuning" anyhow?

Monz has put a bunch of Marc's definitions on a subpage:
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/dict/marcdefs.htm

Cheers,
Jon

--- In metatuning@y..., "jacky_ligon" <jacky_ligon@y...> wrote:

> }; )

are those devil horns?

Paul,

I don't think that's correct. They're both intimately aware of 72...
it's what Joe teaches, uses on his scores, and what he tries out ideas
with on his custom 72 keyboard. Problem is, they don't play it in the
easy, here's 72-tet way that is popular at the lists. From what I can
tell having played with both of them, is that their playing uses 72
much the same way that most forward looking freepitch jazz
instrumentalists use 12--it's the reference but not the whole story.

BTW, no offence to Marc, but since when did he create the pitch
continuum!

take care,

--Dan Stearns

----- Original Message -----
From: "paulerlich" <paul@...>
To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:54 AM
Subject: [metatuning] Re: ECM... Beautiful 12

> --- In metatuning@y..., "jacky_ligon" <jacky_ligon@y...> wrote:
>
> > > Interestingly, ECM has really got behind the Maneris, and they
> have
> > > several recordings out on the label. Needless to say these are
> > > microtonal, but in some sense, who cares.
> >
> > Wow! I was totally unaware of this! Have you heard it? So it's all
> 72
> > equal - right?
>
> not by a long shot. papa is constantly thinking in terms of cents
> inflections from a 72 grid, and son plays in free-pitch manner on
the
> violin -- at least he does on the recordings with steve lantner. so
> really, marc jones's infinity tuning is what we're talking about
here.
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
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--- In metatuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> Paul,
>
> I don't think that's correct. They're both intimately aware of 72...
> it's what Joe teaches, uses on his scores, and what he tries out
ideas
> with on his custom 72 keyboard.

all as i've said many times. he's also told me that he tends to use
cents deviations from 72 in his playing.

> Problem is, they don't play it in the
> easy, here's 72-tet way that is popular at the lists.

?

> From what I can
> tell having played with both of them, is that their playing uses 72
> much the same way that most forward looking freepitch jazz
> instrumentalists use 12--it's the reference but not the whole story.

so what did i say that was incorrect??

> BTW, no offence to Marc, but since when did he create the pitch
> continuum!

i think jacky was just joking about the marc connection. and i
mentioned marc because the pitch continuum just came up with
reference to him. ya know, just being topical?

this conversation is very strange -- are you sure we're inhabiting
the same universe, dan?

Hi Jacky,

Right, that was pretty much impossible to miss. I was just annoyed by
another of my earthly neighbors, the esteemed Mr. Erlich, so I was
letting him know the only way I know how.

take care,

--Dan Stearns

----- Original Message -----
From: "jacky_ligon" <jacky_ligon@...>
To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 3:20 PM
Subject: [metatuning] Re: ECM... Beautiful 12

>
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> --- In metatuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > --- In metatuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> > > BTW, no offence to Marc, but since when did he create the pitch
> > > continuum!
> >
> > i think jacky was just joking about the marc connection. and i
> > mentioned marc because the pitch continuum just came up with
> > reference to him. ya know, just being topical?
>
> Dan,
>
> Sorry 'bout that! Yes - Paul's right. I was being silly, but on a
> more serious pitch, did I tell y'all that I discovered white noise?
>
> I call it "Infinite Timbre".
>
> ; )
>
> J:L
>
>
>
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--- In metatuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:

> I was just annoyed by
> another of my earthly neighbors, the esteemed Mr. Erlich

my offer to leave still stands -- i love you and wish to cause you no
irritation. truly i do not understand what i'm doing or saying wrong
these days, but no matter . . . there's surely enough needless
irritation in the world.

Batik is my favorite
sorry i have not seen it reissued on CD!

I am down to this one and
Dejohnettes-Pictures
Keith Jarret- hymns/speres
holland/phillips music for two basses
and of course
Music for 18 musicians!
OK a few others but

ECM tends to be a little clean for my taste.
i like a little dirt and for god sakes some humor
Like the taste of golden seal- i really like it as the best dirt can taste
like.
yummy yummy!

Ralph playing on the Moors -first weather report album- killer

jacky_ligon wrote:

>
> Ralph Towner (perfection! what more can I say?)

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

James tenney beat you!

jacky_ligon wrote:

>
>
> Sorry 'bout that! Yes - Paul's right. I was being silly, but on a
> more serious pitch, did I tell y'all that I discovered white noise?
>
> I call it "Infinite Timbre".
>
> ; )
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

Really !
Leave the guy alone at least in principle
Goethe says in the opening of Faust.
"If one has only pieces, then in pieces give"
that's i all any of us can do.
we each only have pieces to offer
each with our shortcomings
his with his
mine with mine
the pope with his failed exorcisms
bush and the judges unable to create a fascist state as quickly as they like

when it comes to particular issues,
then all is fair game

paulerlich wrote:

> --- In metatuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
>
> > I was just annoyed by
> > another of my earthly neighbors, the esteemed Mr. Erlich
>
> my offer to leave still stands -- i love you and wish to cause you no
> irritation. truly i do not understand what i'm doing or saying wrong
> these days, but no matter . . . there's surely enough needless
> irritation in the world.
>
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

Paul,

If it makes you feel any better, these kind of annoyances are
pleasantries where I'm coming from lately, so fear not, you're
fine--you like to debate, just consider me a fellow debater who
doesn't particularly like to.

take care,

--Dan Stearns

----- Original Message -----
From: "paulerlich" <paul@...>
To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 4:04 PM
Subject: [metatuning] Re: ECM... Beautiful 12

> --- In metatuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
>
> > I was just annoyed by
> > another of my earthly neighbors, the esteemed Mr. Erlich
>
> my offer to leave still stands -- i love you and wish to cause you
no
> irritation. truly i do not understand what i'm doing or saying wrong
> these days, but no matter . . . there's surely enough needless
> irritation in the world.
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
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>
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>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
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>
>

--- In metatuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> Paul,
>
> If it makes you feel any better, these kind of annoyances are
> pleasantries where I'm coming from lately, so fear not, you're
> fine--you like to debate, just consider me a fellow debater who
> doesn't particularly like to.

i can see why you thought i was debating you on this issue since my
post came after yours. but in fact i hadn't read your post yet. so it
was a misunderstanding. and in fact we were both saying exactly the
same thing anyway.

By the way... WHAT IS ECM?!?!?

--- In metatuning@y..., "Orphon Soul, Inc." <tuning@o...> wrote:
> By the way... WHAT IS ECM?!?!?

Record label started by Manfred Eicher, I think first appeared in the
70's. Everyone else could give you their idea of what
the 'philosophy' or 'sound' of ECM was/is; from my perspective, when
I first started hearing them I realized someone was interested in
giving access to artists that no one else was interested in, giving
their music an outlet, and doing it in a manner that de-
emphasized 'product' and emphasized 'music'. Including much attention
to the sound of the recordings, and the way the artists were treated.

Many an ECM lp affected me in significant ways. I'll always remember
that the first time I heard Egberto Gismonti was on his first ECM lp.
And many, many other artists.

Pretty unique...

Hope we hear some of you soon, Marc!

Cheers,
Jon