Re: [metatuning]700 years? (from crazy_music)

Jeff!
First i was wondering if you were here in LA since it sounds like that
you know Wenten. Why did you move this to this list BTW
I know of Gongs going back to the time you mentioned but we really don't
know what it is they played on them. The trouble i have with the idea of
Gamelan coming from the mideast is their scale types. They are not big on
pentatonics and have nothing that resembles Slendro and Pelog. The Chinese
do and since they say this is where the gamelan comes from, having stone
gongs going back this far, it seem there is more evidence this way. It seems
much more likely that exposure to music of the far east had an influence on
the Persians. It is pretty hard to find an explanation of the neutral third
in their theory (mostly an extension of Greek, which could have been
Sumerian and egyptian in origin, i concede) whereas these interval are
rampant in the music of Burma, Cambodia, and thailand, as well as Sumatra,
and certain forms of Pelog (that approaching 7 equal).
Thanks for the info on the Gamelan Semar Pegulingan Saih Pitu. I am glad
it is older than i thought. Can't imagine what bars are like after 700 years
of banging.
It is my understanding that Balinese Gamelan got allot faster after the
dutch massacre. played much slowed before that.

"X. J. Scott" wrote:

> [Jeff:]
>
> > Of course the Indonesian gamelan has changed very little in 2000
> > years and perhaps 3000 years even so it is not at all
> > unreasonable to think there could have been an influence in
> > EITHER direction, particularly with the Arabs being the first to
> > run the spice route and apparently having been doing so for a
> > long time.
>
> [Kraig:]
>
> >> This is not really the case. It is perhaps only 3 or 4 hundred
> >> years ago that we find instruments that resembles the ones we
> >> see today.
>
> I am sure I have read that gamelan instruments have been
> found in excavations going back two millenia. Though
> obviously I don't remember where I read that. Perhaps
> we are disagreeing on my use of the term 'very little'.
>
> Would you agree if I said "Of course the basic form of the
> instruments used in the Indonesian gamelan has been around
> for at least 2000 years." ?
>
> >> There is much controversy as to which what came first Pelog or
> >> Slendro as it appears they were not both present that far back.
>
> Yes that's partly why I referred to my selection as
> 'Indonesian modes' and not claim any particular label.
>
> >> The music itself is always changing too. The
> >> recordings made by McPhee represent music that is no longer in
> >> existence except as a basis for new styles.
>
> I don't agree with that though I would accept Wenten's
> assesment since he spends plenty of time in both places.
> Have you asked him?
>
> I agree that the tourists like the modern styles like
> Kebyar and the monkey chant; perhaps you are thinking of
> that side of it. But to say that the ancient music is
> no longer in existence or practiced I believed is
> totally and completely untrue, unless all that has
> happened in the last ten years.
>
> >> With the introduction of the Rebab, we see the Persian
> >> influence,
>
> Of course... so you are seeing my point.
>
> >> but not all Indonesia is Islamic. Bali is Hindu
>
> Yes yes I know that. Hinduism was there first for a long
> time, probably brought there on the spice route. Then when
> the Islamic invaders came, the Hindu Royal Courts,
> containing the best and brightest artists, writers and
> scientists, all emigrated to Bali. Thus the Balinese music
> is likely more ancient, which may account for their
> gamelans being more simple than the Javanese (in general).
>
> >> and by the way, credit their tuning as being brought by a
> >> Princess of China.
>
> Well and the Javanese derive from the Balinese so there
> you go.
>
> >> Of course, China is on the silk road and they in turn had
> >> dealing with the mid east :)
>
> Right, as I was saying.
>
> >> Last week i played on my radio show a performer from Yemen who
> >> used a copper tray instrument which is played as a fingered
> >> percussion instrument. The liner notes remarked that the alloy
> >> was the same as the gongs found in Indonesia. hmmmm..
>
> Ah, so you are making my argument for me! :-)
>
> By the way, regarding the claims of 300-400 years, let
> me quote Wenten's notes to "Gamelan Semar Pegulingan Saih
> Pitu":
>
> The Prakempa traces the origins of the gamelan semar
> pegulingan back to the Simladprana, a 14-century
> ensemble also known as the gamelan gambuh, a court
> gamelan which accompanies the ancient gambuh form of
> dance theater. According to the Balinese musicologist
> and educator Nyoman Rembang, the gamelan semar
> pegulingan reportoire has survived to this day by being
> handed down orally from generation to generation.
>
> So that is 700 years there of continued unbroken
> tradition. Can't find the same thing even in Western
> music. And that's just the first liner notes I pulled.
> Perhaps there are older traditional gamelans too or maybe
> I got lucky. The instruments I am fairly positive
> are considerably older.
>
> And I'd like to be real bold here and go ahead and claim
> that the gamelan was invented by the Sumerians. No
> evidence of it but I thing we will one day be surprised
> during an archaeological dig. If anyone reading here has
> contact with any ancient Sumerian or Babylonian entities
> that could shed some light on this issue, I would not mind
> seeing this aspect of it continued in spiritual_tuning.
>
> - Jeff
>
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-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

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Hi Kraig!
> First i was wondering if you were here in LA since it sounds like
that
> you know Wenten.

No, never lived in LA but did live in SD. Did you know I Made
Lasmawan? I was in his group and we would come up and play at the
Consulate on Indonesian Independence Day and for other events in the
area (such as when the King of Jogjakarta made his first trip to the
US - wow!). Also played at Cal Arts once when Pak Chokro retired.
Anyway, knew Wenten through this and also Wenten would come to SD and
perform when we had big concerts. I'm not a very good performer but am
totally stark raving mad about Balinese music and I think that's why
Made let me into his inner circle.

> Why did you move this to this list BTW

Hm... well I am trying to keep my posts to crazy_music to be directly
related to actual music. And here we are getting into detailed
historical speculation which is a little different. Perhaps if we come
to any conclusions, I will summarize how it all relates to the song in
crazy_music.

> I know of Gongs going back to the time you mentioned but we really
don't
> know what it is they played on them.

Yes, alright -- that makes sense. I was about to say that maybe we
could reasonably speculate that the scales and concepts of tuning and
styles of playing were similar since that is where I could tie it in
to the fireflies claim, but you did mention some things I did not know
about, suggesting that scale theory there is somewhat recent. And I
suppose of the old instruments complete sets of keys don't exist... or
are of unplayable quality.

> The trouble i have with the idea of
> Gamelan coming from the mideast is their scale types. They are not
big on
> pentatonics and have nothing that resembles Slendro and Pelog.

I am in 100% agreement with you here. The scale methodologies could
not be more opposed it seems, in fact mirroring somewhat the contrasts
between some of our modern tuning factions.

BUT Arabic music I think was heavily influenced by Greek music and
there is no evidence I am aware of that Greek theory came from
Babylon. The modern Greco-Arab music theory I think came as a result
of Greek cultural influence on the Arabs. (I'm speculating rampantly
here.) In fact with the Babylonian obsession with taking roots of
numbers and solving complex equations, I would speculate that
Babylonian or Sumerian (if the Babylonians were so influenced) music
theory was quite sophisticated. And if the initial trade routes and
relationships were established by the Babylonians long ago, perhaps on
a small scale, then it is possible we could infer there could be a
connection between the two.

> The Chinese
> do and since they say this is where the gamelan comes from, having
stone
> gongs going back this far,

Hm, you're right that they have those super ancient lithiophones. Are
the tunings intact? Any relationship between those tunings and any
others?

> it seem there is more evidence this way. It seems
> much more likely that exposure to music of the far east had an
influence on
> the Persians.

OK - so you are saying it all started with the Chinese, and then moved
South to Indonesia on the silk route and east to Arabia on the spice
route. Seems reasonable, particular since I think the Chinese were the
first to hit Bronze and Iron capabilities, am I right here? And so it
would make mmore sense for bronze technology to move from a big
culture with infrastructure and high tech systems like ancient China
to move down to Indonesia using established routes (particularly since
ancient gamelans are found all the way down the route -- in Thailand
and the Phillipines), rather than of small island nations with sparse
populations and muhc smalller cities to come up with such instrument
technology on their own, though it is possible.

> It is pretty hard to find an explanation of the neutral third
> in their theory (mostly an extension of Greek, which could have been
> Sumerian and egyptian in origin, i concede)

OK - as I said with the roots, right?

> whereas these interval are
> rampant in the music of Burma, Cambodia, and thailand, as well as
Sumatra,

To be sure. But do you know over what range of neutral fifth they use?
Seems that size interval is convenient and if you are -avoiding- just
intervals you might quite naturally and innocently try to find
something right between 6/5 and 5/4.

> and certain forms of Pelog (that approaching 7 equal).
> Thanks for the info on the Gamelan Semar Pegulingan Saih Pitu. I
am glad
> it is older than i thought. Can't imagine what bars are like after
700 years
> of banging.

Well the music has been practiced coninuously. I imagine that they
have replaced the keys and frames over the years as they have worn
out. Again Wenten would be the one who would know who to ask to find
out.

> It is my understanding that Balinese Gamelan got allot faster after
the
> dutch massacre. played much slowed before that.

Yes that is my general feel too. Though I don't know if it is true in
every case. With Kebyar, the fast

Jeff!
agreed with all of your last post. yet see below

Jeff wrote:

> BUT Arabic music I think was heavily influenced by Greek music and
> there is no evidence I am aware of that Greek theory came from
> Babylon. The modern Greco-Arab music theory I think came as a result
> of Greek cultural influence on the Arabs. To be sure.

I thought you were routing for the Sumerians and i was not sure how much the
greeks got from them.

> But do you know over what range of neutral third they use?

It is my understanding from a Palestinian Musician i was talking to that it
the size of this third changes from country to country and even provence to
province. He says he can identify sometimes within 50 miles where a player
is from by this (along with the type of ornament they use as another factor)

> Seems that size interval is convenient and if you are -avoiding- just
> intervals you might quite naturally and innocently try to find
> something right between 6/5 and 5/4.

yes anything from the 11/9 right on down any of the intervals we can find on
the scale tree in this area. It always seemed to make more sense that scales
develop more by the pursuit of "means" as opposed to limits. people look for
a tone in between two others and there you have it.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

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