300 or 400 years? (from crazy_music)

[Jeff:]

> Of course the Indonesian gamelan has changed very little in 2000
> years and perhaps 3000 years even so it is not at all
> unreasonable to think there could have been an influence in
> EITHER direction, particularly with the Arabs being the first to
> run the spice route and apparently having been doing so for a
> long time.

[Kraig:]

>> This is not really the case. It is perhaps only 3 or 4 hundred
>> years ago that we find instruments that resembles the ones we
>> see today.

I am sure I have read that gamelan instruments have been
found in excavations going back two millenia. Though
obviously I don't remember where I read that. Perhaps
we are disagreeing on my use of the term 'very little'.

Would you agree if I said "Of course the basic form of the
instruments used in the Indonesian gamelan has been around
for at least 2000 years." ?

>> There is much controversy as to which what came first Pelog or
>> Slendro as it appears they were not both present that far back.

Yes that's partly why I referred to my selection as
'Indonesian modes' and not claim any particular label.

>> The music itself is always changing too. The
>> recordings made by McPhee represent music that is no longer in
>> existence except as a basis for new styles.

I don't agree with that though I would accept Wenten's
assesment since he spends plenty of time in both places.
Have you asked him?

I agree that the tourists like the modern styles like
Kebyar and the monkey chant; perhaps you are thinking of
that side of it. But to say that the ancient music is
no longer in existence or practiced I believed is
totally and completely untrue, unless all that has
happened in the last ten years.

>> With the introduction of the Rebab, we see the Persian
>> influence,

Of course... so you are seeing my point.

>> but not all Indonesia is Islamic. Bali is Hindu

Yes yes I know that. Hinduism was there first for a long
time, probably brought there on the spice route. Then when
the Islamic invaders came, the Hindu Royal Courts,
containing the best and brightest artists, writers and
scientists, all emigrated to Bali. Thus the Balinese music
is likely more ancient, which may account for their
gamelans being more simple than the Javanese (in general).

>> and by the way, credit their tuning as being brought by a
>> Princess of China.

Well and the Javanese derive from the Balinese so there
you go.

>> Of course, China is on the silk road and they in turn had
>> dealing with the mid east :)

Right, as I was saying.

>> Last week i played on my radio show a performer from Yemen who
>> used a copper tray instrument which is played as a fingered
>> percussion instrument. The liner notes remarked that the alloy
>> was the same as the gongs found in Indonesia. hmmmm..

Ah, so you are making my argument for me! :-)

By the way, regarding the claims of 300-400 years, let
me quote Wenten's notes to "Gamelan Semar Pegulingan Saih
Pitu":

The Prakempa traces the origins of the gamelan semar
pegulingan back to the Simladprana, a 14-century
ensemble also known as the gamelan gambuh, a court
gamelan which accompanies the ancient gambuh form of
dance theater. According to the Balinese musicologist
and educator Nyoman Rembang, the gamelan semar
pegulingan reportoire has survived to this day by being
handed down orally from generation to generation.

So that is 700 years there of continued unbroken
tradition. Can't find the same thing even in Western
music. And that's just the first liner notes I pulled.
Perhaps there are older traditional gamelans too or maybe
I got lucky. The instruments I am fairly positive
are considerably older.

And I'd like to be real bold here and go ahead and claim
that the gamelan was invented by the Sumerians. No
evidence of it but I thing we will one day be surprised
during an archaeological dig. If anyone reading here has
contact with any ancient Sumerian or Babylonian entities
that could shed some light on this issue, I would not mind
seeing this aspect of it continued in spiritual_tuning.

- Jeff

--- In metatuning@y..., "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> [Jeff:]
>
> > Of course the Indonesian gamelan has changed very little in 2000
> > years and perhaps 3000 years even so it is not at all
> > unreasonable to think there could have been an influence in
> > EITHER direction, particularly with the Arabs being the first to
> > run the spice route and apparently having been doing so for a
> > long time.
>
> [Kraig:]
>
> >> This is not really the case. It is perhaps only 3 or 4 hundred
> >> years ago that we find instruments that resembles the ones we
> >> see today.
>

According to written records, the metallophones in the gamelan may
date back as early as the 12th century AD, but stone carvings suggest
a very limited role if at all in the Buddhist and Hindu eras. The
most recent research about gong-making technology pretty much refutes
Mantle Hood's ideas about earlier origins (and a connection to
Chinese bronze drums), and suggest a late medieval date for the beta
bronze technique.

The best dates for the "classical" repertoire played by central
javanese gamelan today extend from ca. 1750 to the middle of this
century. Over these two centuries alone, the changes in repertoire,
style, instrumentation, and, yes, tuning are manifold.

Daniel Wolf