Sagan/Christians

Reinhard...I think the Christian religion, for the most part, is/has
been one of the most destructive forces on Earth. In fact, once a
"religion" is born, it usually means the end of the true message that
the originator of that particular faith intended. I think, for example,
that "Christianity" is more of a myth about Jesus, than any teaching he
brought. In the true way, there's only a human and the Creator...that's
it, for me. It is possible to have a direct link between oneself and the
Universe...although very difficult. Organized religions, in my view, are
more like large business organizations than sources of ultimate truth. I
mentioned Sagan because his name was brought up by someone else, and I
responded. It just so happens that I personally have never liked him
that much, for his arrogance in the way he dismisses the Creator. That
is actually a very common attitude in our culture among highly
intelligent folks, and I have many close friends who do not believe in
the Creator...it isn't an issue for me at all, until one becomes pompous
about it, as Sagan did...he's kind of a cheese head, in my book...Hstick

In a message dated 1/9/02 9:54:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, STICK@...
writes:

> ...it isn't an issue for me at all, until one becomes pompous
> about it, as Sagan did...he's kind of a cheese head, in my book...Hstick
>
>
>

Hi Neil,

I don't intend any dis of your beliefs. However, it has been my personal
experience (anecdotal though it may be) that there is a lot of "pushing" by
many organized religions (but not all).

Now, I don't know Sagan that well, but I did pick up his book "The
Demon-Haunted World" (published by Ballantine). In it, Sagan goes into
detail regarding his views on "religion." I'm not sure if this is pompous,
or if there is some other example that makes him more of a "cheese head," but
I am happy that he has the right to express his view on this subject.

My concern is in disallowing someone's valuable perspectives because of a
single issue. I guess for me, it is the wrong issue.

Best, Johnny Reinhard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Guys,

Interesting points from both of you, as usual.

My concern with Sagan is that he misrepresents himself
-- many people think he is a scientist.

But whether he is a scientist or not, he promotes his
views on things in a one-sided way and hides behind
what he calls science to make his words 'unquestionable
truths'. However, much of the science he promoted was
just plain wrong, yet influenced a lot of people who
believe in his words without questioning and thus
become blind and ignorant themselves. But that's their
own fault I suppose, that's why I said if people want
to ignorantly put their faith in Sagan they are welcome
to.

It's true that religions are businesses -- the satanist
Pat Robertson's 700 Club/Christian Coalition is one of
the more egregious examples of a businessman using
religion to run his scams.

However, there do exist peaceful kind and loving people
who believe in a Creator. Many of them even go to
churches, synagogues, mosques or other places of
congregation. Many do not.

What I see in what is called science today is very
little application of the scientific method, or even
comprehension of what that method is. Politics and big
business are the two primary driving forces of the
scientific establishment today. Scientists promote
themselves as unblemished monks toiling away in
obscurity, devoted to a higher truth, but that is about
the biggest lie there is and it is a delieberately
maintained one. Questioning or criticising the
religious propaganda the 'holy leaders' of science can
get your ass in jail, sued, or at the very least,
blacklisted. Modern science is definately a religion,
it is a very corrupt one, and it is a dangerously
psychotic one too -- I believe more so than any of the
contemporary or historical traditional religions
you have in mind.

- Jeff

----------
>From: Afmmjr@...
>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [metatuning] Sagan/Christians
>Date: Wed, Jan 9, 2002, 11:09 AM
>

> In a message dated 1/9/02 9:54:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> STICK@...
> writes:
>
>
>> ...it isn't an issue for me at all, until one becomes
> pompous
>> about it, as Sagan did...he's kind of a cheese head, in my
> book...Hstick
>>
>>
>>
>
> Hi Neil,
>
> I don't intend any dis of your beliefs. However, it has been
> my personal
> experience (anecdotal though it may be) that there is a lot
of
> "pushing" by
> many organized religions (but not all).
>
> Now, I don't know Sagan that well, but I did pick up his book
> "The
> Demon-Haunted World" (published by Ballantine). In it, Sagan
> goes into
> detail regarding his views on "religion." I'm not sure if
> this is pompous,
> or if there is some other example that makes him more of a
> "cheese head," but
> I am happy that he has the right to express his view on this
> subject.
>
> My concern is in disallowing someone's valuable perspectives
> because of a
> single issue. I guess for me, it is the wrong issue.
>
> Best, Johnny Reinhard
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: X. J. Scott [mailto:xjscott@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 11:32 AM
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [metatuning] Sagan/Christians
>
>
> Guys,
>
> Interesting points from both of you, as usual.
>
> My concern with Sagan is that he misrepresents himself
> -- many people think he is a scientist.

what r u talking about? He was the David Duncan Professor of Astronomy and
Space Sciences and director of the Laboratory for Planetary Studies at
Cornell University.

from his obit:

Sagan played a leading role in NASA's Mariner, Viking, Voyager and Galileo
expeditions to other planets. He has received NASA Medals for Exceptional
Scientific Achievement and twice for Distinguished Public Service and the
NASA Apollo Achievement Award.

His research has focused on topics such as the greenhouse effect on Venus;
windblown dust as an explanation for the seasonal changes on Mars; organic
aerosols on Titan, Saturn's moon; the long-term environmental consequences
of nuclear war; and the origin of life on Earth. A pioneer in the field of
exobiology, he continued to teach graduate and undergraduate students in
courses in astronomy and space sciences and in critical thinking at Cornell.

> From: Neil Haverstick <STICK@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 6:46 AM
> Subject: [metatuning] Sagan/Christians
>
>
> Reinhard...I think the Christian religion, for the most part, is/has
> been one of the most destructive forces on Earth. In fact, once a
> "religion" is born, it usually means the end of the true message that
> the originator of that particular faith intended. I think, for example,
> that "Christianity" is more of a myth about Jesus, than any teaching he
> brought. In the true way, there's only a human and the Creator...that's
> it, for me. It is possible to have a direct link between oneself and the
> Universe...although very difficult. Organized religions, in my view, are
> more like large business organizations than sources of ultimate truth.

I have a little motto about this that I think I invented:

"Organized religion is more about the organization
than about the religion."

And I agree about Christianity. While Jesus taught many
principles which I agree are good ones to live by, it was
Paul who codified them into the religion that then became
Christianity, and I submit that Christianity has an awful
lot more to do with Paul than it does with Jesus, despite
its name.

-monz

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In a message dated 1/9/02 8:32:46 AM Pacific Standard Time,
xjscott@... writes:

> Modern science is definately a religion,
> it is a very corrupt one, and it is a dangerously
> psychotic one too -- I believe more so than any of the
> contemporary or historical traditional religions
>
> Got-ta got-ta holler Amen! to that, son!
Whatever "religion" one perceives as placebo or scam or palliative or
namby-pamby or peace-love fascists or pc twaddle utterly pales in the face of
state-mandated atheism (it seems to me from what my kids get in California
Public Schools) under the guises of "science" and "freedom".
The fallout for half-educated twits like me is a kind of helpless stultified
irreverence that refuses to finish a thought because it would be too much
work..."hire a specialist", trust someone like Robertson or W to know what
evil is...aaargh!
Maybe it's a silly question, but how do any of these religious organizations
budgets compare to DOD's???
And what does DOD have to do with Madison Avenue who markets drugs and the
like all the live-long day to my children, not to mention arms, and the
glories of ignorant "faith" in science, technology and consumerism?
Any _true_ practice (incuding Christian!) of spirituality is transparent, if
not deeply therapeutic out of the individual's own thinking and feeling
capacities. Science can balance it in the polarity, but I don't get a lot of
reciprocation from popularized "science" to see it as much other than what
Jeff says.

Screed over, merci,

Pete

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]