Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup metatuning first appearance of Satan in annals of history

--- In metatuning@y..., "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
>
> >> Well the first time in history that a large scale
> >> project was attempted be the government to number all
> >> the citizens was also the first time in the historical
> >> record that Satan is described by name as the
> >> instigator of a great evil.
>
> [Paul:]
> > That's pretty remarkable, and was honestly not something I
> > knew. What point in history was this?
>
> Between 970 and 930 BC. Of course Satan turns up as a
> somewhat mythological entity in stories and songs
> before this but this is the first time Satan turns up
> in a historical record containing independently
> verifiable events.

And at this time, what was the government that was attempting a large
scale project to number all the citizens?

🔗X. J. Scott <xjscott@...>

🔗jonszanto <JSZANTO@...>

Jeff,

--- In metatuning@y..., "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> It was the United Kingdom of Israel, just before they
> began work on the temple.
>
> Sorry I thought that was self-evident as satan is a
> hebrew word.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I doubt the majority of
people knew that 'satan' was a hebrew word; I certainly didn't. And
we asked for clarity *because* it was not only not self-evident (the
events, the times, etc.), but not in my memory of history.

I'd still like details: you said between 970 and 930 bc, and then
everything after that was vague - please fill us in!

Cheers,
Jon

🔗X. J. Scott <xjscott@...>

[Jon:]

> I'd still like details: you said between 970 and 930 bc, and
> then everything after that was vague - please fill us in!

The details are recounted in Divrei-Hayamim Alef
(within the K'tuvim). A summary:

Satan rose up against Isra'el and provoked David to
number Isra'el. David commanded Yo'av to carry out this
task. Yo'av protested, saying 'Why will you be a cause
of trespass to Israel?' But David insisted, and as
king, his word was law. So Yo'av went out and did it.
The tribes of Binyamin and Levi did not participate
because 'the king's word was abominable'.

God was displeased with this thing and punished
Isra'el. David told God, "I have sinned greatly because
I have done this thing. Put aside your servant's sin
because I have acted very foolishly." David's seer Gad
relayed YHWH's response: three punishments to choose
from: 3 yrs famine, 3 months of being swept away by
enemies, or three days of YHWH's sword -- plague, with
the angel of YHWH destroying everywhere in Isra'el's
territory.

David chose the three days, saying 'Let me fall into
the hand of YHWH because his bercies are very great,
rather than have me fall into the hands of man.' So
YHWH sent a plague, killing 70,000.

Then God sent an angel to Yerushalayim to destroy it,
but when he was beginning to destroy it, YHWH saw it
and changed his mind and told the angel to stop. At
this time, the angel of YHWH was standing on the
threshingfloor of Ornan the Y'vusi. David saw the angel
standing between earth and sky holding a sword
stretched out over Yerushalayim. Then David and the
leaders, wearing sackcloth, fell to their faces. David
begged God to punish him and his family since he was
'the one who has sinned and done something very
wicked'. Then the angel of YHWH told David through Gad
to set up an altar to YHWH on the threshingfloor of
Ornan the Y'vusi.

So David went to see Ornan who was threshing wheat.
Ornan saw the angel. David offered to pay full price
for the property to build the altar to YHWH 'so that
the plague will be lifted from the people.' Ornan
wanted to give it to King David, but David insisted and
paid 15 pounds of gold. He built the altar for YHWH
there and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings.
He called on YHWH who answered him from heaven by fire
on the altar for burnt offerings. YHWH gave an order to
the angel, and he put his sword back in his sheath.
When David saw that YHWH had answered him at the
threshingfloor of Ornan the Y'vusi, he sacrificed
there.

At the time this all happened, the tabernacle of YHWH,
which Moishe had made in the desert, together with the
altar for burnt offerings were in the high place at
Giv'on.

David then made arrangements for workers, cedar logs,
gold, silver and bronze to be assembled in preparation
to build a house of God in Yerushalayim, at the
threshingroom site where the angel had stayed his hand
from destroying the city. David did not start the
construction though -- that was reserved for his son
Shlomo. YHWH had told David that he would not be
permitted to build the house himself because he had
shed too much blood and fought too many wars in God's
sight. The privledge to do this would go to David's
son, whose name means 'peace'.

Anyway, so that's how it came that Solomon built the
great temple in Jerusalem. It is on that site because
it was at that site that the angel of YHWH was stayed
from 'destroying everywhere in Isra'el's territory' as
punishment for David's 'wicked' numbering plans which
were provoked upon him by an entity named 'Satan'.

- Jeff

🔗paulerlich <paul@...>

🔗jonszanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗clumma <carl@...>

> Well the first time in history that a large scale
> project was attempted be the government to number all
> the citizens was also the first time in the historical
> record that Satan is described by name as the
> instigator of a great evil.

When it comes to stuff like this, I doubt there are many
surprises, zooming in on history. Your buddy knows who
you are, the tax man down the street knows who you are,
and on some proportional level, the emergeant gov'mint at
large knows who you are. It's very difficult to hide in
primate societies. Always has been.

Microchips under skin? Wonder how they're gonna sell that
one... They got me with the ole "social", by way of my
parents, and the whole income tax / find work thing. But
once my resume is more hard-core, I may be able to distance
myself from it a bit. Video monitoring is much easier to
implement than subcutaneous silicon, and just as effective.
And just around the corner, it seems.

Anyway, religious fanatics... what a bunch. Yes, I'm
spiritual about being an autonomous entity. I'm spiritual
about the fact that I'm part of an environment in which
I can be sustained, on a basic level at least without any
external effects, and on a higher level through the mutual
benefit of human relationships. I find large-scale, unified
ID systems evil to the extent that they foster coercion in
human relationships... are wide open for parasitic, if not
tyrannical abuse, from all sorts of things... and most of all
because I think they should in principle be unnecessary.
This from a guy who thinks government in general should be in
principle unnecessary. I tell ya.

-Carl

🔗clumma <carl@...>

🔗X. J. Scott <xjscott@...>

> I wrote...
>> Anyway, religious fanatics... what a bunch.
>
> I used this as a sort of expression... just a
> bad choice at 3am. I did _not_ mean this like it probably
> sounds (ie, in reference to anyone here).

> -Carl

Oh gosh oh my oh dear I'm so offended. (Not!)

The only thing I will say that them extremist fanatics
seem to have in common is that they (we?) give good
parties and eat some pretty gosh darn good food.

I totally agree with you Carl that there are well nigh
enough secular reasons to object to universal ID and
enumeration schemes without even needing to resort to
don't-ask don't-tell ineffable mysteries of religion.

Simply from a humanistic perspective -- that man is
intrinsically dignified -- the idea that the government
has the right to number us is disturbing. It suggests
that humans are disposable interchangable parts made by
a factory owned by the government.

And from an experiential perspective -- these schemes
historically simply lead to no good; soemthing which
apparently has had to be relearned periodically over
the centuries.

- Jeff

🔗monz <joemonz@...>

> From: X. J. Scott <xjscott@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 8:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [metatuning] Whoa!
>
>
> I totally agree with you Carl that there are well nigh
> enough secular reasons to object to universal ID and
> enumeration schemes without even needing to resort to
> don't-ask don't-tell ineffable mysteries of religion.

And I totally agree too.

> Simply from a humanistic perspective -- that man is
> intrinsically dignified -- the idea that the government
> has the right to number us is disturbing. It suggests
> that humans are disposable interchangable parts made by
> a factory owned by the government.

But what's unfortunate is that this is *already* essentially
how human life is viewed by "the government", not to mention
by the big corporations. Government and Big Business are
today in a symbiotic relationship in which each is
interchangeably master/servant, and the individual human
lives that make it all possible don't really enter into
the equation, except in massive numbers as collectively
they are essential to make it happen at all. Otherwise
each of us is just "a cog in the wheel" that keeps it going.

> And from an experiential perspective -- these schemes
> historically simply lead to no good; soemthing which
> apparently has had to be relearned periodically over
> the centuries.

And again unfortunately, this is all too true, has been
for millennia, and continues to be so.

-monz

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🔗X. J. Scott <xjscott@...>

[Monz:]

>> the idea that the government
>> has the right to number us is disturbing. It suggests
>> that humans are disposable interchangable parts made by
>> a factory owned by the government.

> But what's unfortunate is that this is *already* essentially
> how human life is viewed by "the government", not to mention
> by the big corporations. Government and Big Business are
> today in a symbiotic relationship in which each is
----------------
> interchangeably master/servant,
------------------------------

Wow! That's a really intriguing insight. So it's kind
of like they leap frog over each other spasmatically
going off in one direction as opposed to a system of
checks and balances that keep thinks from getting
extreme. This wrong sort of back-and-forth, fertilized
by scratchy-back fraternalism, yields progress towards
tyranny.

> and the individual human lives that make it all possible
> don't really enter into the equation, except in massive
> numbers as collectively they are essential to make it happen
> at all. Otherwise each of us is just "a cog in the wheel"
> that keeps it going.

They don't realize that when they try to control the
populace and destroy those who question their
tyrannical plans, they also destroy those rarest of
invdividuals who make the real progress for a society.
Thus the result of tyranny is medievalism -- cruel and
backwards practices dominated by superstition and
madness.

- J

🔗clumma <carl@...>

🔗monz <joemonz@...>

> From: X. J. Scott <xjscott@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 11:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [metatuning] Whoa!
>
>
> [Monz:]
>
> >> the idea that the government
> >> has the right to number us is disturbing. It suggests
> >> that humans are disposable interchangable parts made by
> >> a factory owned by the government.
>
> > But what's unfortunate is that this is *already* essentially
> > how human life is viewed by "the government", not to mention
> > by the big corporations. Government and Big Business are
> > today in a symbiotic relationship in which each is
> ----------------
> > interchangeably master/servant,
> ------------------------------
>
> Wow! That's a really intriguing insight. So it's kind
> of like they leap frog over each other spasmatically
> going off in one direction as opposed to a system of
> checks and balances that keep thinks from getting
> extreme. This wrong sort of back-and-forth, fertilized
> by scratchy-back fraternalism, yields progress towards
> tyranny.
>
>
> > and the individual human lives that make it all possible
> > don't really enter into the equation, except in massive
> > numbers as collectively they are essential to make it happen
> > at all. Otherwise each of us is just "a cog in the wheel"
> > that keeps it going.
>
> They don't realize that when they try to control the
> populace and destroy those who question their
> tyrannical plans, they also destroy those rarest of
> invdividuals who make the real progress for a society.
> Thus the result of tyranny is medievalism -- cruel and
> backwards practices dominated by superstition and
> madness.
>
> - J

You're certainly understanding me well, Jeff!
This is exactly how I view the currently business/gov't
oligarchy.

-monz

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🔗monz <joemonz@...>

> From: clumma <carl@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 12:16 PM
> Subject: [metatuning] Re: Whoa!
>
>
> > But what's unfortunate is that this is *already* essentially
> > how human life is viewed by "the government", not to mention
> > by the big corporations. Government and Big Business are
> > today in a symbiotic relationship /.../
>
> Hey monz, just flagging the word "today" here. East India
> Tea Company? Etc. As you say,
>
> > And again unfortunately, this is all too true, has been
> > for millennia, and continues to be so.

Yes, Carl, you're right to call me on that one. But the
business/gov't partnership as it stands today really isn't
much older than East India Tea Company. It only become
possible with the widespread acceptance of a capitalist
economy, which only began c. 1500 or so.

But with today's technological prowess, the partnership
has never been more sinister or dangerous. IMO, the only
real chance we have of salvaging our individual dignity and
freedom of speech today lies with the internet, because of
the power of communication which it allows to each individual.

-monz

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