who killed the electric car?

Awesome documentary. Saw it last night. Truly mind-boggling and really
can make you very angry. But well done.

Did you know that one of Ronald Reagan's first acts as president was
to remove the solar panels Carter had installed on the roof of the
White House? How's that for summing up the stupidity of Republican values?

-A.

the democrats aren't far behind. let's watch while they end a war by escalating it!
and after 18 months we will have a new republican gov't! to keep it going!

Did you catch that in the seconds before saddam was hanged he yelled out the name of a rival warlord.

Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
> Awesome documentary. Saw it last night. Truly mind-boggling and really
> can make you very angry. But well done.
>
> Did you know that one of Ronald Reagan's first acts as president was
> to remove the solar panels Carter had installed on the roof of the
> White House? How's that for summing up the stupidity of Republican values?
>
> -A.
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

> Awesome documentary. Saw it last night. Truly mind-boggling and really
> can make you very angry. But well done.

Oh boy. So what's the answer: who killed it?

> Did you know that one of Ronald Reagan's first acts as president was
> to remove the solar panels Carter had installed on the roof of the
> White House? How's that for summing up the stupidity of Republican
> values?

Did they mention that a much larger installation was put
up under George W. Bush in 2002?

-Carl

I'd be amazed if either of you actually knew anything
about electric cars. They were forced onto the marketplace
by a California law before the technology was competitive.
In particular, appropriate battery technology did not exist.
It was until 2002 for a company, A/C propulsion, to make
a working concept that could compete with the gasoline car
(my neighbor had one of the ~4 models ever produced) and
until this year when Tesla proved a commercial version
could be sold. Tesla will be producing a sedan in 2-3
years, which I will own. Will you?

Finally, it's worth pointing out that electric cars are
slightly worse for the environment than whatever means are
used to produce grid power. Tesla's white paper shows that
if you use natural gas to power the grid, you wind up with
a decent multiplier over gasoline cars. If you use coal I
think you still come out better, but not so much better.
But of course electric cars are much more fun to drive and
more convenient (in daily driving, anyway) to refuel. They
still don't quite manage to be competitive for highway
trips > 250 miles, but a family could cover that by keeping
their better gasoline car and trading their other one in on
a Tesla sedan.

Importantly, the Prius is slightly better in city driving
than a 1993 Honda Civic, and worse than that Civic on the
highway. Meanwhile, most drivers can 1.5X their city
mileage by simply changing their driving habits and checking
the air pressure in their tires.

-Carl

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>
> the democrats aren't far behind.
//
> Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
> > Awesome documentary. Saw it last night.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
> Importantly, the Prius is slightly better in city driving
> than a 1993 Honda Civic, and worse than that Civic on the
> highway.

Explain that statement.

> Meanwhile, most drivers can 1.5X their city
> mileage by simply changing their driving habits and checking
> the air pressure in their tires.

Absolutely. Given the real-time feedback in my Prius, my driving
habits have changed dramatically, and I *am* getting better mileage in
my other car as well.

Cheers,
Jon

> > Importantly, the Prius is slightly better in city driving
> > than a 1993 Honda Civic, and worse than that Civic on the
> > highway.
>
> Explain that statement.

The Prius battery is small and only good for short distances.
On the highway, that leaves you with the also-small (underpowered)
gasoline engine, which doesn't run efficiently at highway
speeds. The better city driving efficiency comes from the
better efficiency of electric motors, but also from regenerative
braking, which you don't get on the highway (since you're
not braking (hopefully)).

The particular definition of the test used to establish
EPA mileage estimates hides the bad highway performance
of the Prius and other hybrids. What kind of mileage do
you actually get on the highway? I'm guessing about 30mpg.

> > Meanwhile, most drivers can 1.5X their city
> > mileage by simply changing their driving habits and checking
> > the air pressure in their tires.
>
> Absolutely. Given the real-time feedback in my Prius, my driving
> habits have changed dramatically, and I *am* getting better
> mileage in my other car as well.

That's good. Of course people can change their habits without
buying a new car. Just brake less by planning ahead, accelerate
smoothly, and try to plan your errands for fewer trips. Don't
buy a truck unless you need the space, check your tire pressure
and oil level regularly. Measure your mpg regularly to watch
for changes that indicate service is needed. Don't run the A/C
unless you need it. etc.

-Carl

> That's good. Of course people can change their habits without
> buying a new car. Just brake less by planning ahead, accelerate
> smoothly, and try to plan your errands for fewer trips. Don't
> buy a truck unless you need the space, check your tire pressure
> and oil level regularly. Measure your mpg regularly to watch
> for changes that indicate service is needed. Don't run the A/C
> unless you need it. etc.

Oh, and save money and gas and get better control in snow
and ice by buying a manual transmission.

-Carl

> Absolutely. Given the real-time feedback in my Prius, my driving
> habits have changed dramatically, and I *am* getting better mileage in
> my other car as well.

Also, many cars have mpg readout of some kind. My wife's
BMW has an analog gauge for it that responds instantly.
My VW has a two digital guages that independently average
mpg (one resets when the car is parked > 1 hr, the other
averages until you manually reset it).

-Carl

Carl,

Bear in mind this comes on the heels of your "I'd be surprised if you
knew anything..." statement, which is a particularly snarky way of
making commentary. So...

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
> The Prius battery is small and only good for short distances.
> On the highway, that leaves you with the also-small (underpowered)
> gasoline engine, which doesn't run efficiently at highway
> speeds.

This shows your lack of experience with a Prius. Mine is a 2005,
bought in April 2005.

> The particular definition of the test used to establish
> EPA mileage estimates hides the bad highway performance
> of the Prius and other hybrids. What kind of mileage do
> you actually get on the highway? I'm guessing about 30mpg.

The EPA tests are notoriously wacky, but I knew that before I shopped.
And your guess, which is wildly off, is humorous. Our cumulative
average (both city and highway) is regularly 46-47 mpg. The best tests
of freeway driving is when we have to (ugh) go to Los Angeles. I can
almost always count on getting 52-53 mpg on the highway, and one
wonderful trip back home, after filling up with cheaper LA gas, I
managed 57 mpg (in part courtesy of typical slow traffic out of
Hollywood).

Real world.

> That's good. Of course people can change their habits without
> buying a new car.

Duh. But people are people, and you can talk all you want to them, but
give them a real-time readout that actually shows them how effective
those habits can be, and it makes a big difference. In a perfect
world, we'd get everyone to drive smarter, even in their gas guzzlers,
but I'm not waiting for a perfect world.

As to your statement about the 1993 Honda Civic, I just thought I'd
check to see what you were talking about. It still seems to be hot air:

Civic:
http://tinyurl.com/yrjpzm

Prius:
http://tinyurl.com/27dsak

One last item: if there was a reliable and cost-effective electric, I
might want to get one too. But we all have our constraints, and for us
just two of them were

1. a car that can comfortable fit a cello in it's case safely
2. more importantly, be able to transport, with ease and relative
comfort, elderly parents to their doctor's appointments

The Prius has been a wonderful car in these respects, and I'll
probably stick with this transitional technology until the next best
thing comes around.

Happy motoring (when we have to)!

Cheers,
Jon

> This shows your lack of experience with a Prius. Mine is a 2005,
> bought in April 2005.

Oh boy.

> > The particular definition of the test used to establish
> > EPA mileage estimates hides the bad highway performance
> > of the Prius and other hybrids. What kind of mileage do
> > you actually get on the highway? I'm guessing about 30mpg.
>
> The EPA tests are notoriously wacky, but I knew that before
> I shopped. And your guess, which is wildly off, is humorous.
> Our cumulative average (both city and highway) is regularly
> 46-47 mpg.

I wasn't estimating the cumulative average.

> I can almost always count on getting 52-53 mpg on the highway,
> and one wonderful trip back home, after filling up with
> cheaper LA gas, I managed 57 mpg
>
> Real world.

That's pretty good.

> One last item: if there was a reliable and cost-effective
> electric, I might want to get one too. But we all have our
constraints, and for us
> just two of them were
>
> 1. a car that can comfortable fit a cello in it's case safely
> 2. more importantly, be able to transport, with ease and relative
> comfort, elderly parents to their doctor's appointments

Another notable constraint is that no electric cars could
be purchased in 2005.

-Carl

> Our cumulative
> average (both city and highway) is regularly 46-47 mpg.
//
> I can almost always count on getting 52-53 mpg on the highway,

Anyway the '93 Civic VX was rated at 51mpg combined city
and highway.

-Carl

Carl,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
> Oh boy.

Oh, c'mon. I was just saying what I have, and how long I've had the
actual experience with it.

> I wasn't estimating the cumulative average.

You still haven't addressed the Civic statement, but as to the
average: it might be somewhat reasonable to take a reading of only
city driving, but it is hard to get only highway mpg, unless one wants
to fill up right on an on-ramp, drive, fill up as you exit, and
calculate. That is how I know some of the LA-San Diego trips. But real
world thinking indicates that, being our driving is a mix of both, the
cumulative is the best indicator.

> Another notable constraint is that no electric cars could
> be purchased in 2005.

Yeah, I noticed.

Cheers,
Jon

> > Our cumulative
> > average (both city and highway) is regularly 46-47 mpg.
> //
> > I can almost always count on getting 52-53 mpg on the highway,
>
> Anyway the '93 Civic VX was rated at 51mpg combined city
> and highway.

Anyway, the net net is that 48 months from now, a majority
of your friends and acquaintences will drive a car powered
solely by an electric motor as their primary vehicle.
That's good news, and nobody can stop it even if they
wanted to.

-Carl

Carl,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
> Anyway the '93 Civic VX was rated at 51mpg combined city
> and highway.

Ah, I hadn't remembered that little dog. But it doesn't matter, as
they don't have anything like that now, and it is woefully inadequate
for the needs of a family or for any moderate hauling of gear, etc.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
> Anyway, the net net is that 48 months from now, a majority
> of your friends and acquaintences will drive a car powered
> solely by an electric motor as their primary vehicle.
> That's good news, and nobody can stop it even if they
> wanted to.

Well, that's right up there with your Bush election prediction, but I
sure would love to see you be right on this one! :) Anyway, I'm going
to put a note in my calendar for 4 years from now to get back in touch
with you...

Cheers,
Jon

> > Another notable constraint is that no electric cars could
> > be purchased in 2005.
>
> Yeah, I noticed.

Actually, is not entirely true. The Tesla preorders were
sold out in Q4 '05 (and I think the A/C t-zeros were still
available build-to-order for the right price). But you
wouldn't get delivery of the car until this year, and I'm
not sure it fits a cello. And it definitely isn't in most
people's budgets. But I think we'll be able to afford the
sedan. That is, if GM doesn't beat them to the punch.

-Carl

> Oh, c'mon. I was just saying what I have, and how long I've had the
> actual experience with it.

I've spent a good deal of time behind the wheel of
the 2nd-gen Prius, and my wife has a 1st-gen Prius,
and my mother-in-law has a 2007 hybrid Camry, and
I've also driven the '98 Honda EV around Berkeley,
and I've also driven a slew of experimental fuel cell
cars in a parking lot in Berkeley at an exhibit that
was going around, and I've also driven more gasoline
cars than you can shake a stick at, from the likes
of a '69 Mustang Boss 302 and '95 Hennessey Dogdge
Viper all the way down to my 1984 Toyota Camry that
could get 36 mpg on the freeway an 80mph for days on
end (crossing the country). Maybe you even remember
that one. :)

> it might be somewhat reasonable to take a reading of only
> city driving, but it is hard to get only highway mpg,
> unless one wants to fill up right on an on-ramp, drive, fill
> up as you exit, and calculate.

You don't have to fill on the ramps -- there's usually a
station close enough to an exit to be insignificant in
the calculation involving freeway distances. But yes,
when I travel on highway trips, I stop only for gas,
and the occassional scenic overlook.

> But real world thinking indicates that, being our driving
> is a mix of both, the cumulative is the best indicator.

When I commuted to Keyboard, highway driving was nearly
100% of my driving. When I was unemployed in 2002, city
driving was nearly 100% of my driving (and Berkeley has
a f*** stop sign every 20 ft.).

-Carl

> Well, that's right up there with your Bush election prediction, but I
> sure would love to see you be right on this one! :) Anyway, I'm going
> to put a note in my calendar for 4 years from now to get back in touch
> with you...

You should. I'm also thinking about making a longbet you could
wager against...

-Carl

C,

I wrote:

> > Well, that's right up there with your Bush election prediction...

...when in reality I meant the Schwarzenegger (sp?) prediction. Came
to me in the shower just now, and I'd hate to be inaccurate. :)

> I'm also thinking about making a longbet you could
> wager against...

I don't know, I'm 52 already!

Cheers,
Jon

> > Well, that's right up there with your Bush election prediction...
>
> ...when in reality I meant the Schwarzenegger (sp?) prediction. Came
> to me in the shower just now, and I'd hate to be inaccurate. :)

Um, I predicted Schwarzenegger didn't have a chance, and was
wrong. I predicted GWB would definitely win 2004, and was right.

-Carl

On 23/01/07, Carl Lumma <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> I'd be amazed if either of you actually knew anything
> about electric cars. They were forced onto the marketplace
> by a California law before the technology was competitive.
> In particular, appropriate battery technology did not exist.
> It was until 2002 for a company, A/C propulsion, to make
> a working concept that could compete with the gasoline car
> (my neighbor had one of the ~4 models ever produced) and
> until this year when Tesla proved a commercial version
> could be sold. Tesla will be producing a sedan in 2-3
> years, which I will own. Will you?

Electric bikes are doing pretty well, but I still don't plan on
getting one. Perhaps when I'm old and lazy :P

Graham