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Hi all-

just caught part of a documentary on the Sundance Channel called "Winter
Soldier" which you can read about here:

http://www.wintersoldierfilm.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Soldier_Investigation

very powerful stuff, especially at the present time when the unmitigated
disaster of the Iraq war is becoming apparent to even the most dim witted
republicans and other retards.

Long story short: give a bunch of 19 year old guns, train them how to kill,
brainwash them into beliving that the "enemy" are not human, then turn them
loose. Be it Vietnam in the 60s or Iraq now, there is gonna be barbaric
atrocity mayhem as far as the eye can see. Sure, one or two saps are put on
trial for rape and murder and made an example of, but what this film shows
(and I have no reason to believe things are any different now than they were
then) is that atrocity is the very fabric of war, training is carefully
calculated to bring out the basest instincts in what are otherwise normal
decent people, and then as now, the bloodshed is all about money and power.

Kinda depressing, I know, but if you get a chance to see this film, it will
definitly give you something to think about.

Dante

🔗monz <monz@...>

Hi Dante,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all-
>
> just caught part of a documentary on the Sundance Channel
> called "Winter Soldier" which you can read about here:
>
> http://www.wintersoldierfilm.com/
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Soldier_Investigation

> <snip ...> what this film shows (and I have no reason
> to believe things are any different now than they were
> then) is that atrocity is the very fabric of war, training
> is carefully calculated to bring out the basest instincts
> in what are otherwise normal decent people, and then as now,
> the bloodshed is all about money and power.

Way back when i was a little kid, my father expressed a
pessimistic opinion which has stayed with me my whole life:
"The fact that we still engage in war proves to me that
the human race is a failure."

That word "still" is perhaps the most important one, and
relates directly to your parenthetical comment. The whole
point is that with our powers of reasoning, we should have
realized long ago (as a species) that war is no longer
necessary.

-monz

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

On 11/20/06, Dante Rosati <dante@...> wrote:
> Long story short: give a bunch of 19 year old guns, train them how to kill,
> brainwash them into beliving that the "enemy" are not human, then turn them
> loose. Be it Vietnam in the 60s or Iraq now, there is gonna be barbaric
> atrocity mayhem as far as the eye can see.

In principle, it sounds very similar to the Stanford Prison Experiment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

--TRISTAN
Dreaming of Eden is a Comic with no Pictures
http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

Just saw "Why We Fight" last night----it was an awesome movie---and it
sounds like it's a very similar type of film to the one you are
describing.

"Why We Fight" shows that the military industrial complex, the
phenomenon which Eisenhower coined in his 1961 farewell address, is
the real machine of war--one which is self-sustaining by oil and big
money weapons manufacturers. Republicans and Democrats alike in
Congress support this machine because their districts are employed by
it--hence the Dems going along with Iraq in the beginning when they
should have known better. Powerful stuff.

-A.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all-
>
> just caught part of a documentary on the Sundance Channel called "Winter
> Soldier" which you can read about here:
>
> http://www.wintersoldierfilm.com/
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Soldier_Investigation
>
> very powerful stuff, especially at the present time when the unmitigated
> disaster of the Iraq war is becoming apparent to even the most dim
witted
> republicans and other retards.
>
> Long story short: give a bunch of 19 year old guns, train them how
to kill,
> brainwash them into beliving that the "enemy" are not human, then
turn them
> loose. Be it Vietnam in the 60s or Iraq now, there is gonna be barbaric
> atrocity mayhem as far as the eye can see. Sure, one or two saps are
put on
> trial for rape and murder and made an example of, but what this film
shows
> (and I have no reason to believe things are any different now than
they were
> then) is that atrocity is the very fabric of war, training is carefully
> calculated to bring out the basest instincts in what are otherwise
normal
> decent people, and then as now, the bloodshed is all about money and
power.
>
> Kinda depressing, I know, but if you get a chance to see this film,
it will
> definitly give you something to think about.
>
> Dante
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

The Hanoi Hilton (Vietnamese: Ha;a Lò, meaning "fiery furnace") was a
prison used by the French colonists in Vietnam for political
prisoners and later by North Vietnam for prisoners of war during the
Vietnam War.

When prisoners of war began to be released from this and other North
Vietnamese prisons in the late 1960s and early 1970s, their
testimonies revealed widespread and systematic abuse of prisoners of
war. Initially this information was suppressed by American
authorities for fear that conditions might worsen for the prisoners
remaining in North Vietnamese custody.

Neither the United States nor its allies ever formally charged North
Vietnam with the war crimes revealed to have been committed there,
nor demanded extradition of Vietnamese officials who had violated
the Geneva Convention at the Hanoi Hilton. The present government of
Vietnam firmly holds to the view that the Hanoi Hilton was a prison
for criminals, not POWs, and that those held in the Hanoi Hilton
were "pirates" and "bandits" who had attacked Vietnam without
authority.

Vice Presidential candidate James Stockdale was held as a prisoner
at the Hanoi Hilton, as well as Senator John McCain, who spent five
and a half years there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanoi_Hilton

=================================================================

On October 26, 1967, McCain's A-4 Skyhawk was shot down by an anti-
aircraft missile, landing in Truc Bach Lake. He broke both arms and
a leg after ejecting from his plane. After he regained
consciousness, a mob gathered around him and stripped him of his
clothing. He was then tortured by Vietnamese soldiers, who
bayonetted him in his left foot and groin. His shoulder was crushed
by a rifle butt. He was then transported to the Hoa Lo Prison, also
known as the Hanoi Hilton.[6]

Once McCain arrived at the Hanoi Hilton, he was placed in a cell and
interrogated daily. When McCain refused to provide any information
to his captors, he was beaten until he lost consciousness.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

Lone Soldier - A individual who comes to Israel without family
for the sole purpose of serving in the Israeli
Defense Forces.

Lone Soldier: Absorption under fire

I may as well have told my family that I was off to Afghanistan to
join the Taliban; my decision to come to Israel was that random.

We were never Zionistic, and we were the furthest thing from
religious. On top of that, neither I nor anyone else in the family
had ever been to Israel and we knew not one soul that lived there.
And wasn't I was in fact the same Hebrew school dropout who didn't
get a bar mitzva because it interfered with soccer practice? So,
when I suddenly dropped the bomb that I was off to Israel on aliya
in November 2001 with the ultimate goal of joining the IDF . . .
well, everyone just figured that I had finally and completely lost
it.

The following stories, which will appear in this spot, are excerpts
from emails I sent home to California during my bittersweet first
three years in the country both as an oleh hadash and as a lone
soldier in the IDF - in a rough reverse chronological order. They
provide the perspective of a secular American, seeing the Arab-
Israeli conflict, and show the progress from wide-eyed tourist to
Israeli soldier at the heart of the struggle.

http://blogcentral.jpost.com/newsItems/viewFullItem$308

--------------------------------------------------------------

http://blogcentral.jpost.com/newsItems/viewFullItem$310

http://blogcentral.jpost.com/newsItems/viewFullItem$311

http://blogcentral.jpost.com/newsItems/viewFullItem$312

http://blogcentral.jpost.com/newsItems/viewFullItem$327

http://blogcentral.jpost.com/newsItems/viewFullItem$354

http://blogcentral.jpost.com/newsItems/viewFullItem$377

http://blogcentral.jpost.com/newsItems/viewFullItem$390

http://blogcentral.jpost.com/newsItems/viewFullItem$409

http://blogcentral.jpost.com/newsItems/viewFullItem$422

http://blogcentral.jpost.com/newsItems/viewFullItem$487

http://blogcentral.jpost.com/newsItems/viewFullItem$514

http://blogcentral.jpost.com/newsItems/viewFullItem$644

http://blogcentral.jpost.com/newsItems/viewFullItem$720

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

Lone Soldier: Navigations

(excerpt)

During those seemingly endless navigation exercises consisting of
days-long treks across the Negev desert's rocky hilltops, I came to
understand why all the prophets were shepherds.

The absolute solitude and suffering of the days spent alone in that
vast landscape induced profound moments of understanding, and miles
into these navigation exercises true wisdom would reveal itself in
a dried riverbed or in a high, empty sky. In that profound silence,
the voice of the desert echoes in the soul.

Sometimes we would set out on these journeys with a partner, but
usually we walked alone, and once out of sight of the busses the
world would seem a distant memory amongst those silent ridges and
valleys. Guided by a compass, and a route memorized from
topographical maps, we pursued elusive coordinates marked perhaps by
some graffiti scrawled at the intersection of two ravines, or a pile
of stones heaped at the summit of one of the infinite peaks that
seemed to stretch to the Earth's end. Hours into these journeys, the
desert and the fatigue induces a mesmerizing effect.

Civilization seems an unfounded rumor in that vast, unchanging
landscape, and in awe of the majestic ridges and monoliths and
crevices and caves of the Negev, the mind opens to profound personal
revelations. The young men inevitably think of family, and
girlfriends, and they ponder their looming initiation into
operational status, when they will finally enter into the
Palestinian cities as the defenders of the nation. They see
themselves coming face to face with death in those foreign
alleyways. The soldiers contemplate the fragility of existence, and
life seems as ephemeral as a rose petal abandoned on the eternal
desert peaks.

http://blogcentral.jpost.com/newsItems/viewFullItem$409

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

Excerpts from 'The Crisis' By Thomas Paine

December 23, 1776

THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the
sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of
their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and
thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily
conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the
conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap,
we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing
its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods;
and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM
should not be highly rated.

Jan. 13, 1777

By what means, may I ask, do you expect to conquer America? If you
could not effect it in the summer, when our army was less than
yours, nor in the winter, when we had none, how are you to do it?

March 21, 1778

When I look back on the gloomy days of last winter, and see America
suspended by a thread, I feel a triumph of joy at the recollection
of her delivery...

The Crisis

Footnote 1

The present winter is worth an age, if rightly employed; but, if
lost or neglected, the whole continent will partake of the evil; and
there is no punishment that man does not deserve, be he who, or
what, or where he will, that may be the means of sacrificing a
season so precious and useful.

http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/crisis/singlehtml.htm

Great RealAudio archive!!

🔗Mats Öljare <oljare@...>

🔗Dante Rosati <dante@...>

🔗monz <monz@...>

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>