Reply to Johnny

[Johnny wrote:]
>Right now, I'm really tired. Just performed a good show in Toronto and
>early tomorrow we fly to Winnepeg.

Very kyool, Johnny!! Spread that music! Good luck in Winnepeg.

JdL

Thanks, John. Winnipeg was really hip to us. Large crowd and warm response. Now we are in Vancouver, playing Saturday night. Good publicity here so it should be a good capper for the whole event. Barstow has made a quantum leap in expression regarding our performances. Looking forward to doing all the Li Po in New York on April 30th.

Back later. Johnny Reinhard

Johnny,

This is Sharon's victory speech online:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0n0w0

It is interesting for what it includes and what it leaves out. He does not speak of
the Palestinians directly (the speech I remember seeing around this same time in which
he did was clearly some other, contrary to my recollection).

Sharon is making an appeal for unity, a working together of people who would otherwise
be enemies. Unfortunately, he makes it clear that he's speaking only to Jews. The
rest of the world is summed up by his statement, "The fight against terrorist
organizations is not over."

This is mild stuff for Sharon, though still very telling. I'll keep my eye out for
some much jucier speech-making, since you're interested.

JdL

In a message dated 3/16/03 9:06:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, jdl@...
writes:

> The
> rest of the world is summed up by his statement, "The fight against
> terrorist
> organizations is not over."
>

These people are being bombed daily EXCEPT when the Israeli government stops
it from happening. How could you equate "terrorist organizations" with the
rest of the world? Man, where's your understanding? There was nothing in
his speech that deserved comparison with Hitler. NOTHING. Please realize
this and we can move on, still worrying about the defenseless and the needy.
Johnny

> This is mild stuff for Sharon, though still very telling. I'll keep my eye
> out for
> some much jucier speech-making, since you're interested.
>
> JdL
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Johnny:]
>These people are being bombed daily EXCEPT when the Israeli government stops
>it from happening. How could you equate "terrorist organizations" with the
>rest of the world? Man, where's your understanding? There was nothing in
>his speech that deserved comparison with Hitler. NOTHING. Please realize
>this and we can move on, still worrying about the defenseless and the needy.

As I said, this is mild stuff for Sharon. Have you read any of Uri Avnery's
columns yet? Your attempt at wearing a mantle of righteous indignation strikes
me as a little strained. Make that VERY strained. Watch and see what Sharon
does in the next few weeks, then come back and tell me what you think he's
made of.

JdL

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "John A. deLaubenfels" <jdl@a...>
wrote:

> The
> rest of the world is summed up by his statement, "The fight against
> terrorist
> organizations is not over."

the rest of the world? what exactly leads you to such a twisted
interpretation?

p.s. "subhuman" -- take a look at how the words "pigs and dogs" are
being used in the middle east and in houses of worship throughout the
world. now there's something you can compare to naziism.

[I wrote:]
>>The rest of the world is summed up by his statement, "The fight against
>>terrorist organizations is not over."

[wallyesterpaulrus:]
>the rest of the world? what exactly leads you to such a twisted
>interpretation?

Because that's his only reference to anyone outside Jews and Israel.
Please help me understand how that interpretation is "twisted".
And please tell me: are you going to take Sharon's side? Describe
him as a "man of peace", perhaps? Please share with us exactly
what your view is.

>p.s. "subhuman" -- take a look at how the words "pigs and dogs" are
>being used in the middle east and in houses of worship throughout the
>world. now there's something you can compare to naziism.

Anyone who resorts to such tactics is despicable, without question.
Is it your view that for some it's ok and for others not?

JdL

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "John A. deLaubenfels" <jdl@a...>
wrote:

> And please tell me: are you going to take Sharon's side?

nope -- i would not have voted for him.

> Describe
> him as a "man of peace", perhaps?

no way!

> Anyone who resorts to such tactics is despicable, without question.
> Is it your view that for some it's ok and for others not?

of course not. i think johnny and i are still searching in vain for
the reference you mentioned.

[Johnny wrote:]
>Palestinians are killing themselves and all chances of peace. Israelis
>are defending themselves, even as they get dirtier and meaner.

The sentences make as much sense if you reverse the two names. The
Palestinians are without question full partners in this horrible script
of mutual self-destruction, as I have said many times.

[Johnny:]
>That may soon be us, unless you can become more balanced.

I am not "balanced", when I blame both sides, but you are "balanced", when
you blame only one? Interesting perspective. I suggest that you give the
matter a bit more thought.

[Johnny:]
>Metapropaganda is a different list.

You'd like me to go away, is that it?

JdL

In a message dated 3/23/03 10:10:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jdl@... writes:

> [Johnny wrote:]
> >Palestinians are killing themselves and all chances of peace. Israelis
> >are defending themselves, even as they get dirtier and meaner.
>
> The sentences make as much sense if you reverse the two names.

Exactly my point.

The > Palestinians are without question full partners in this horrible script
> of mutual self-destruction, as I have said many times.
>

Many times? Partners? Mutual self-destruction? The Jewish people were near
obliterated in the 20th century. It is their defense that allows them to
continue. In Israel the saying goes: If we lose one battle, we lose
everything. The motto: Never Again!

> [Johnny:]
> >That may soon be us, unless you can become more balanced.
>
> I am not "balanced", when I blame both sides, but you are "balanced", when
> you blame only one? Interesting perspective. I suggest that you give the
> matter a bit more thought.

Your contributions have not been balanced. Of course you see that in me.
The critic often describes more of the critic than the subject being
criticized. Besides, I am not blaming anyone. Your sarcasm "interesting
perspective" is duly noted. Your messages have been terrorizing to me.

> [Johnny:]
> >Metapropaganda is a different list.
>
> You'd like me to go away, is that it?
>
> JdL
>
>
If you turn this forum into your own propaganda stage, I will go away.

Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Johnny,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:

In the first part of your response to JdL, you say:

> It is their defense that allows them to continue. In Israel the
> saying goes: If we lose one battle, we lose everything. The
> motto: Never Again!

...and then you mention at the end:

> If you turn this forum into your own propaganda stage, I
> will go away.

Looked at in various light(s), *every* person, and *every* viewpoint, can be seen as "propoganda". Your statement above looks every bit as motivationally supportive of current Israeli policy as any pro-Palistinian posting, so I think that saying someone else is using a forum for propoganda neglects the reality of everyone's opinion appearing as such.

These issues are extraordinarily complex, they go back into the earliest reaches of our history, and will only be clarified - if only a little bit, and a little step at a time - if various voices are heard, if listeners can have access to various points of view. Even though I have spent years in my adult life within the Jewish community, had many dialogues, spent 10 years in a klezmer band, I *still* don't know all the corners of a Jewish experience, and I'm helped to be illuminated by your thoughts. I think that as valuable as your take on life is, there are other sides, other views that need airing as well. If they are false, it won't be hard to show as much.

But shutting down won't help anything. John hasn't over-posted, inundating the list the was past correspondents have, and while I may or may not have agreed with any or all of it, it has given me things to think about.

Best,
Jon