Reply to Paul E

[I wrote:]
>>Communication is an inexact art. Everything that any of us reads has
>>to be understood in terms we ourselves are familiar with,

[Paul:]
>John deL, perhaps you're a bit too quick to automatically do this,
>rather than making an attempt to understand someone's position on it
>own terms. That's my honest impression from what I've seen on this
>list. You make big leaps and seem to see others' views in black and
>white even while warning against the same. (Just being honest, I love
>you man!)

[JdL:]
>>and there is a lot of trial and error when any of us says, "So, what
>>you're saying is ... ".

[Paul:]
>Let's shoot for more trial, less error (that is, don't attempt base a
>long monologue on a perceived element of someone's position that
>wasn't explicitly stated -- this has been a problem for many people,
>myself surely included, even on the main tuning list).

[JdL:]
>>I don't think it helps, however, simply to pull an outraged attitude,
>>especially if it's not accompanied with any clues that would help
>>correct whatever has been misunderstood.

[Paul:]
>The diatribes that purport to counter position x of person y, even if
>y never explicitly said x, can be outrageous. Cease the behavior and
>the outrage will cease (sound familiar :)?).

Well, Paul, I'm sure that I'm guilty of much of what you say.

Accusing Johnny of waffling on the settlement issue was an out-and-out
dumb screw-up on my part, since I had missed a post in which he clearly
opposed them. My wrist was very properly slapped for that mistake.

But... here's my paragraph, again, which you and Johnny jumped on (from
post 1089, a reply to Jeff):

[JdL:]
>Me, I'm glad the Taliban is on the run. Too damn bad we can't bring
>back the statues they destroyed, not to mention the lives they
>destroyed or set way back! I'm still holding my breath to see whether
>the Northern Alliance keeps from degenerating into their old ways.
>Perhaps, as Paul E and Johnny assure us, the U.S. will keep that
>tendency in check. Time will tell.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why this would cause a sense of
outrage in either one of you. I had based it upon my understanding
(always subject to correction, to be sure) of things you both had
recently said. Here's your post 1075 (with added speaker attributions):

> [Johnny:]
> >I'm sorry for all the cynicism on this list...and in this world.
I
> >believe that the whole world is watching and we--the collective
> >"we"--will see to it that Afghanistan is a better place for our--
the
> >U.S.--intervention.
>
> [JdL:]
> I hope this is how things unfold! But your faith in the members of
the
> Northern Alliance does not dovetail with their past behavior.

[Paul:]
Bush, Blair, and the internation coalition by no means intend to
allow the Northern Alliance to become the new rulers or government of
Afghanistan. A small part of it, perhaps, but that is all.

End of post. Johnny's post 1065, from which he is quoted above, also
includes:

[Johnny:]
>Past Northern Alliance behavior will not be tolerated.

End of excerpt. I have already re-quoted other parts, and will resist
doing so again.

My brief, passing summary still seems like a pretty fair representation
of the views you and Johnny expressed.

However, I'm sure that all of us, myself certainly included, could
benefit from reviewing our responses to others' posts, with the idea
of bringing in less irrelevant material that reflects our own particular
axes, rather than the subject at hand.

JdL

--- In metatuning@y..., "John A. deLaubenfels" <jdl@a...> wrote:

> My brief, passing summary still seems like a pretty fair
representation
> of the views you and Johnny expressed.

Well, it certainly wasn't in it itself the cause of any outrage, but
wasn't a fair representation either. The Northern Alliance have
already begun demonstrating their old ways, and I doubt the U.S. or
anyone can keep that tendency in check at all. Instead, the Northern
Alliance will (supposedly) not be allowed, by the international
coalition, to hold more than a minority of power in the new
government -- the new government is envisioned as being
representative of all of Afghanistan's ethnic groups. Let's hope we
do not end up having to go to war against the Northern
Alliance/United Front!