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Evolution

🔗Afmmjr@...

3/25/2006 10:27:40 AM

I just finished taking a science course on Friday. It was an amazing experience for me, someone who hadn't learned much science in the career of a musician.

The idea that plants gave oxygen to bring on life is wild. So is the axis of Earth (hit by an asteroid?), while Venus spins like a top.

And those haploids doing their thing. So far the scientists don't believe there is a double helix nebula photographed that is a full 60 light years wide. (no the photo is tiny in comparison ;)

Noting Stephen's comment, could one accept a reframing the the evolution question? Might a creationist agree that evolution goes a long way to explaining the workings of nature, but without agreeing to Who or what started the process?

Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

3/25/2006 10:33:42 AM

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:

I just came across this incomprehensible thread:

http://www.sgtstryker.com/weblog/archives/003367.php

I don't have any opinion on it. I'm just giving you
something to do until someone responds.

-Stephen

>
> I just finished taking a science course on Friday. It was an
amazing experience for me, someone who hadn't learned much science
in the career of a musician.
>
> The idea that plants gave oxygen to bring on life is wild. So is
the axis of Earth (hit by an asteroid?), while Venus spins like a
top.
>
> And those haploids doing their thing. So far the scientists don't
believe there is a double helix nebula photographed that is a full
60 light years wide. (no the photo is tiny in comparison ;)
>
> Noting Stephen's comment, could one accept a reframing the the
evolution question? Might a creationist agree that evolution goes a
long way to explaining the workings of nature, but without agreeing
to Who or what started the process?
>
> Johnny
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗Afmmjr@...

3/25/2006 11:19:51 AM

Thanks, Stephen, I took a look. Strangely enough, even with an AFMM concert tonight, I have time to surf.

Other than the fact that chimps and humans are not related to each other but to a common anscestor, my biggest objection is that people don't know who the Bonobo are. We have the same DNA percentage as they do, but they are inconvenient to discuss.

They are bisexual, greeting each other with their genitalia. There are only 5000 left (while 20 years ago there were 80,000) living in the Congo. Chimps read lips, but Bonobo can understand spoken language from humans using headphones. Even Orangutans are more like us than chimps.

Johnny

-----Original Message-----
From: stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 18:33:42 -0000
Subject: [metatuning] Re: Evolution

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:

I just came across this incomprehensible thread:

http://www.sgtstryker.com/weblog/archives/003367.php

I don't have any opinion on it. I'm just giving you
something to do until someone responds.

-Stephen

>
> I just finished taking a science course on Friday. It was an
amazing experience for me, someone who hadn't learned much science
in the career of a musician.
>
> The idea that plants gave oxygen to bring on life is wild. So is
the axis of Earth (hit by an asteroid?), while Venus spins like a
top.
>
> And those haploids doing their thing. So far the scientists don't
believe there is a double helix nebula photographed that is a full
60 light years wide. (no the photo is tiny in comparison ;)
>
> Noting Stephen's comment, could one accept a reframing the the
evolution question? Might a creationist agree that evolution goes a
long way to explaining the workings of nature, but without agreeing
to Who or what started the process?
>
> Johnny
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Meta Tuning meta-info:

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To post to the list, send to
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

3/25/2006 11:41:55 AM

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:
>
+++ Johnny

Many, many organisms on earth have 70% of more genes in
common with humans. It doesn't mean anything to me. Also
came across this fun fact (if it's a fact):

Complexity is not necessarily a function of size: the grasshopper
genome is about 9 times bigger than the human genome.

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=1149

-Stephen
------------------------------------------------------------

> Thanks, Stephen, I took a look. Strangely enough, even with an
AFMM concert tonight, I have time to surf.
>
> Other than the fact that chimps and humans are not related to each
other but to a common anscestor, my biggest objection is that people
don't know who the Bonobo are. We have the same DNA percentage as
they do, but they are inconvenient to discuss.
>
> They are bisexual, greeting each other with their genitalia.
There are only 5000 left (while 20 years ago there were 80,000)
living in the Congo. Chimps read lips, but Bonobo can understand
spoken language from humans using headphones. Even Orangutans are
more like us than chimps.
>
> Johnny
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 18:33:42 -0000
> Subject: [metatuning] Re: Evolution
>
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@ wrote:
>
>
>
> I just came across this incomprehensible thread:
>
> http://www.sgtstryker.com/weblog/archives/003367.php
>
> I don't have any opinion on it. I'm just giving you
> something to do until someone responds.
>
> -Stephen
>
>
> >
> > I just finished taking a science course on Friday. It was an
> amazing experience for me, someone who hadn't learned much science
> in the career of a musician.
> >
> > The idea that plants gave oxygen to bring on life is wild. So
is
> the axis of Earth (hit by an asteroid?), while Venus spins like a
> top.
> >
> > And those haploids doing their thing. So far the scientists
don't
> believe there is a double helix nebula photographed that is a full
> 60 light years wide. (no the photo is tiny in comparison ;)
> >
> > Noting Stephen's comment, could one accept a reframing the the
> evolution question? Might a creationist agree that evolution goes
a
> long way to explaining the workings of nature, but without
agreeing
> to Who or what started the process?
> >
> > Johnny
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

3/25/2006 11:55:00 AM

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@ wrote:
> >
> +++ Johnny
>
For a book on science that takes a perspective you may
hardly ever see, I would recommend:

The End of Science (by John Horgan)

Written by a non-Christian, 1996. Have your library
get it for you. Basically he proves (to my satisfaction)
that science, that is pure science, has ended. For example,
string theory.

-Stephen

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

3/25/2006 12:26:38 PM

Stephen,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
wrote:
> For a book on science that takes a perspective you may
> hardly ever see, I would recommend:
>
> The End of Science (by John Horgan)

I remember partially reading that (maybe excerpts online somewhere)
that picqued my curiosity. But what was interesting was to take a
second to read about Horgan himself, and see on his own site the
following:

"Horgan is currently doing research on pacifism, aggression, and the
widespread belief that human warfare is inevitable. He touches on
these topics in his Science & Spirit article under Quick Links. He
would appreciate any input on these topics, especially recommendations
for relevant reading materials, organizations, individual sources, etc."

The link to that article, which is worth a read, is:
http://www.science-spirit.org/article_detail.php?article_id=474

Cheers,
Jon

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

3/25/2006 1:08:03 PM

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
Jon

(These excerpts reflect some time on my hands today. I'm
not saying I believe you agree or disagree with them.)

Excerpts and commentary on link:

Sorry Jon couldn't resist this one:
----------------------------------------------------------------
Similarly, early twentieth-century Japan was extremely belligerent;
even Zen Buddhist leaders such as D.T. Suzuki, who later helped to
popularize Buddhism in the West, encouraged attacks on China and
other countries. But since its traumatic defeat in World War II,
Japan has embraced pacifism.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Should we try to curb our aggressive instincts by altering...
our genes?

((In other words, cease to be human. (S. Szpak))

----------------------------------------------------------------

Or maybe we should all have electrodes implanted in our brains,
zapping us when we act or even think aggressively...
The question is: Who gets the electrodes in the brain, and who gets
the remote control?

--------------------------------------------------------------

Aggression can even serve the cause of peace. I've known some
extremely aggressive peace activists.

---------------------------------------------------------------

(I think (or hope) we can all agree here that Hitler never
wanted war. He wanted all the nations he invaded to surrender
ahead of time. My weird spin on it, but I think it's valid.
(S. Szpak))

-Stephen

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

3/25/2006 9:31:51 PM

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:
>
+++ Johnny

Actually there is a 5% difference according to Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo

As noted above, the scientific name for the Bonobo is Pan paniscus.
Since the Bonobo DNA is at least 95% equal to that of Homo sapiens...

Perhaps you've heard the saying:

A cloud is 100% water and a watermelon is 97% water. So a
watermelon missed being a cloud by just 3%.

-Stephen

> Other than the fact that chimps and humans are not related to each
other but to a common anscestor, my biggest objection is that people
don't know who the Bonobo are. We have the same DNA percentage as
they do, but they are inconvenient to discuss.
>
>>
> Johnny
>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

3/26/2006 1:22:13 AM

> Might a creationist agree that evolution goes a long way to
> explaining the workings of nature, but without agreeing to
> Who or what started the process?

"Non in tempore, sed cum tempore finxit Deus mundum."

-Carl

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

3/26/2006 9:23:11 AM

Carl,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
> "Non in tempore, sed cum tempore finxit Deus mundum."

As embarrassing as it is to ask (and after trying online translators),
would you rephrase that in English?

Ta,
Jon

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

3/26/2006 9:38:20 AM

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> Carl,
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@> wrote:
> > "Non in tempore, sed cum tempore finxit Deus mundum."
>
> As embarrassing as it is to ask (and after trying online
translators),
> would you rephrase that in English?

++++++++ Yes, please. Stephen

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

3/26/2006 11:43:33 AM

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > Might a creationist agree that evolution goes a long way to
> > explaining the workings of nature, but without agreeing to
> > Who or what started the process?
>
> "Non in tempore, sed cum tempore finxit Deus mundum."
>
++++ Jon

I tried:

http://www.freedict.com/onldict/lat.html

Some words *might* be misspelled by Carl????

not against/into X but when/as X X God X

Best I gots.

-Stephen

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

3/26/2006 12:06:09 PM

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
wrote:
> Some words *might* be misspelled by Carl????

I saw the quote in a number of sources (untranslated) and the words
appear correct. The point is that I don't want to piece it together
word by word, I'd like to know what Carl's reading/translation of the
phrase is.

Jon

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

3/26/2006 1:12:24 PM

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@>
> wrote:
> > Some words *might* be misspelled by Carl????
>
> I saw the quote in a number of sources (untranslated) and the words
> appear correct. The point is that I don't want to piece it together
> word by word, I'd like to know what Carl's reading/translation of the
> phrase is.
>
> Jon
>
+++++++++ Jon

Same here. I've given up. Stephen

🔗Kees van Prooijen <lists@...>

3/26/2006 7:01:50 PM

My guess is, it is the notion that time was created at the same time as
the rest of the world (God created the world with time, not in time).
(Just like there's no sense in talking what was there before the Big
Bang in real valued time)

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@>
> wrote:
> > Some words *might* be misspelled by Carl????
>
> I saw the quote in a number of sources (untranslated) and the words
> appear correct. The point is that I don't want to piece it together
> word by word, I'd like to know what Carl's reading/translation of the
> phrase is.
>
> Jon
>

🔗Kees van Prooijen <lists@...>

3/27/2006 7:41:03 AM

of course that should be formulated:

"time was created together with the rest of the world" :-)

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Kees van Prooijen" <lists@...>
wrote:
>
> My guess is, it is the notion that time was created at the same time
as
> the rest of the world (God created the world with time, not in time).
> (Just like there's no sense in talking what was there before the Big
> Bang in real valued time)
>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

3/27/2006 10:44:49 AM

> My guess is, it is the notion that time was created at the same
> time as the rest of the world (God created the world with time,
> not in time). (Just like there's no sense in talking what was
> there before the Big Bang in real valued time)

This does seem to be the prevailing interrpetation on google.
But I'd always read it a different way. Given the context of
this thread, perhaps you can guess which way. I don't know if
such an interpretation is supported by this form of "with",
or if St. Augustine was so foward-thinking.

Here are some variants on the phrase:

http://www.meliza.org/wiki/SedCumTempore

-Carl

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@...>

3/27/2006 11:25:25 AM

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:

> The idea that plants gave oxygen to bring on life is wild. So is
the axis of Earth (hit by an asteroid?), while Venus spins like a top.

There's nothing funny about the axis of the Earth, and Venus barely
spins at all--to the extent it does, it spins backwards.

Here's an article about the study which suggests that sort of thing is
to be expected in Venus-like planets:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn879

🔗Afmmjr@...

3/27/2006 11:34:12 AM

Gene, are you going to regulate what is funny? It is funny to me that you would argue against what someone thinks is funny. What I found funny was that an "accidental" asteroid striking is presumed to be the cause of our much beloved seasons.

Johnny

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@...>
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 19:25:25 -0000
Subject: [metatuning] Re: Evolution

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:

> The idea that plants gave oxygen to bring on life is wild. So is
the axis of Earth (hit by an asteroid?), while Venus spins like a top.

There's nothing funny about the axis of the Earth, and Venus barely
spins at all--to the extent it does, it spins backwards.

Here's an article about the study which suggests that sort of thing is
to be expected in Venus-like planets:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn879

Meta Tuning meta-info:

To unsubscribe, send an email to:
metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/

To post to the list, send to
metatuning@yahoogroups.com

You don't have to be a member to post.

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@...>

3/27/2006 11:37:20 AM

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@ wrote:
>
>
>
> I just came across this incomprehensible thread:
>
> http://www.sgtstryker.com/weblog/archives/003367.php
>
> I don't have any opinion on it. I'm just giving you
> something to do until someone responds.

That's been suggested, but the estimate given on the relationship
between human and chimp DNA is at the very high end. Moreover, there
are some striking differences.

Here's a better article on that recent study:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3744

Here's a contradictory study:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2833

Humans are generally thought to have differentiated via rapid
evolution; part of that is the "runaway brain" which may still be
running away, but not altogether:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Dec03/chimp.life.hrs.html

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/238852_chimp01.html

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@...>

3/27/2006 11:40:52 AM

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:

> Other than the fact that chimps and humans are not related to each
other but to a common anscestor, my biggest objection is that people
don't know who the Bonobo are. We have the same DNA percentage as
they do, but they are inconvenient to discuss.

Bonobo are much more closely related to common chimps than either are
to humans.

> Even Orangutans are more like us than chimps.

They are highly intelligent and much more dignified, but they are not
social animals and their DNA isn't as close.

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@...>

3/27/2006 11:42:00 AM

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
wrote:

> Written by a non-Christian, 1996. Have your library
> get it for you. Basically he proves (to my satisfaction)
> that science, that is pure science, has ended. For example,
> string theory.

He proves that by twisting people's answers he can force a
preconcieved conclusion.

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@...>

3/27/2006 11:43:49 AM

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
wrote:

> (I think (or hope) we can all agree here that Hitler never
> wanted war.

Hitler enjoyed his experience in WW1, and thought war was good for the
folk. He wanted war.

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@...>

3/27/2006 11:45:44 AM

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@ wrote:
> >
> +++ Johnny
>
> Actually there is a 5% difference according to Wikipedia.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo

I'd better check on that; I read up on the bonobos and at that time
they were suggesting a far more recent split.

🔗Afmmjr@...

3/27/2006 12:11:55 PM

>Robert M. Sapolsky: A Natural History of Peace
>http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20060101faessay85110/robert-m-sapolsky/a-natural-history-of-peace.html
>
> From Foreign Affairs, January/February 2006
> _________________________________________________________________
>
> Summary: Humans like to think that they are unique, but the study of
> other primates has called into question the exceptionalism of our
> species. So what does primatology have to say about war and peace?
> Contrary to what was believed just a few decades ago, humans are not
> "killer apes" destined for violent conflict, but can make their own
> history.
>
> Robert M. Sapolsky is John A. and Cynthia Fry Gunn Professor of
> Biological Sciences and Professor of Neurology and Neurological
> Sciences at Stanford University. His most recent book is "Monkeyluv:
> And Other Essays on Our Lives as Animals."
>
> THE NAKED APE
>
> The evolutionary biologist Theodosius Dobzhansky once said, "All
> species are unique, but humans are uniquest." Humans have long taken
> pride in their specialness. But the study of other primates is
> rendering the concept of such human exceptionalism increasingly
> suspect.
>
> Some of the retrenchment has been relatively palatable, such as with
> the workings of our bodies. Thus we now know that a baboon heart can
> be transplanted into a human body and work for a few weeks, and human
> blood types are coded in Rh factors named after the rhesus monkeys
> that possess similar blood variability.
>
> More discomfiting is the continuum that has been demonstrated in the
> realm of cognition. We now know, for example, that other species
> invent tools and use them with dexterity and local cultural variation.
> Other primates display "semanticity" (the use of symbols to refer to
> objects and actions) in their communication in ways that would impress
> any linguist. And experiments have shown other primates to possess a
> "theory of mind," that is, the ability to recognize that different
> individuals can have different thoughts and knowledge.
>
> Our purported uniqueness has been challenged most, however, with
> regard to our social life. Like the occasional human hermit, there are
> a few primates that are typically asocial (such as the orangutan).
> Apart from those, however, it turns out that one cannot understand a
> primate in isolation from its social group. Across the 150 or so
> species of primates, the larger the average social group, the larger
> the cortex relative to the rest of the brain. The fanciest part of the
> primate brain, in other words, seems to have been sculpted by
> evolution to enable us to gossip and groom, cooperate and cheat, and
> obsess about who is mating with whom. Humans, in short, are yet
> another primate with an intense and rich social life -- a fact that
> raises the question of whether primatology can teach us something
> about a rather important part of human sociality, war and peace.
>
> It used to be thought that humans were the only savagely violent
> primate. "We are the only species that kills its own," one might have
> heard intoned portentously at the end of nature films several decades
> ago. That view fell by the wayside in the 1960s as it became clear
> that some other primates kill their fellows aplenty. Males kill;
> females kill. Some kill one another's infants with cold-blooded
> stratagems worthy of Richard III. Some use their toolmaking skills to
> fashion bigger and better cudgels. Some other primates even engage in
> what can only be called warfare -- organized, proactive group violence
> directed at other populations.
>
> As field studies of primates expanded, what became most striking was
> the variation in social practices across species. Yes, some primate
> species have lives filled with violence, frequent and varied. But life
> among others is filled with communitarianism, egalitarianism, and
> cooperative child rearing.
>
> Patterns emerged. In less aggressive species, such as gibbons or
> marmosets, groups tend to live in lush rain forests where food is
> plentiful and life is easy. Females and males tend to be the same
> size, and the males lack secondary sexual markers such as long, sharp
> canines or garish coloring. Couples mate for life, and males help
> substantially with child care. In violent species, on the other hand,
> such as baboons and rhesus monkeys, the opposite conditions prevail.
>
> The most disquieting fact about the violent species was the apparent
> inevitability of their behavior. Certain species seemed simply to be
> the way they were, fixed products of the interplay of evolution and
> ecology, and that was that. And although human males might not be
> inflexibly polygamous or come with bright red butts and six-inch
> canines designed for tooth-to-tooth combat, it was clear that our
> species had at least as much in common with the violent primates as
> with the gentle ones. "In their nature" thus became "in our nature."
> This was the humans-as-killer-apes theory popularized by the writer
> Robert Ardrey, according to which humans have as much chance of
> becoming intrinsically peaceful as they have of growing prehensile
> tails.
>
> That view always had little more scientific rigor than a Planet of the
> Apes movie, but it took a great deal of field research to figure out
> just what should supplant it. After decades' more work, the picture
> has become quite interesting. Some primate species, it turns out, are
> indeed simply violent or peaceful, with their behavior driven by their
> social structures and ecological settings. More important, however,
> some primate species can make peace despite violent traits that seem
> built into their natures. The challenge now is to figure out under
> what conditions that can happen, and whether humans can manage the
> trick themselves.
>
> PAX BONOBO
>
> Primatology has long been dominated by studies of the chimpanzee, due
> in large part to the phenomenally influential research of Jane
> Goodall, whose findings from her decades of observations in the wild
> have been widely disseminated. National Geographic specials based on
> Goodall's work would always include the reminder that chimps are our
> closest relatives, a notion underlined by the fact that we share an
> astonishing 98 percent of our DNA with them. And Goodall and other
> chimp researchers have carefully documented an endless stream of
> murders, cannibalism, and organized group violence among their
> subjects. Humans' evolutionary fate thus seemed sealed, smeared by the
> excesses of these first cousins.
>
> But all along there has been another chimp species, one traditionally
> ignored because of its small numbers; its habitat in remote,
> impenetrable rain forests; and the fact that its early chroniclers
> published in Japanese. These skinny little creatures were originally
> called "pygmy chimps" and were thought of as uninteresting, some sort
> of regressed subspecies of the real thing. Now known as bonobos, they
> are today recognized as a separate and distinct species that
> taxonomically and genetically is just as closely related to humans as
> the standard chimp. And boy, is this ever a different ape.
>
> Male bonobos are not particularly aggressive and lack the massive
> musculature typical of species that engage in a lot of fighting (such
> as the standard chimp). Moreover, the bonobo social system is female
> dominated, food is often shared, and there are well-developed means
> for reconciling social tensions. And then there is the sex.
>
> Bonobo sex is the prurient highlight of primatology conferences, and
> leads parents to shield their children's eyes when watching nature
> films. Bonobos have sex in every conceivable position and some
> seemingly inconceivable ones, in pairs and groups, between genders and
> within genders, to greet each other and to resolve conflicts, to work
> off steam after a predator scare, to celebrate finding food or to
> cajole its sharing, or just because. As the sound bite has it, chimps
> are from Mars and bonobos are from Venus.
>
> All is not perfect in the bonobo commune, and they still have
> hierarchies and conflict (why else invent conflict resolution?).
> Nonetheless, they are currently among the trendiest of species to
> analyze, a wonderful antidote to their hard-boiled relatives. The
> trouble is, while we have a pretty good sense of what bonobos are
> like, we have little insight into how they got that way. Furthermore,
> this is basically what all bonobos seem to be like -- a classic case
> of in-their-nature-ness. There is even recent evidence for a genetic
> component to the phenomenon, in that bonobos (but not chimps) possess
> a version of a gene that makes affiliative behavior (behavior that
> promotes group cohesion) more pleasurable to males. So -- a wondrous
> species (and one, predictably, teetering on the edge of extinction).
> But besides being useful for taking the wind out of we-be-chimps
> fatalists, the bonobo has little to say to us. We are not bonobos, and
> never can be.
>
> WARRIORS, COME OUT TO PLAY
>
> In contrast to the social life of bonobos, the social life of chimps
> is not pretty. Nor is that of rhesus monkeys, nor savanna baboons -- a
> species found in groups of 50 to 100 in the African grasslands and one
> I have studied for close to 30 years. Hierarchies among baboons are
> strict, as are their consequences. Among males, high rank is typically
> achieved by a series of successful violent challenges. Spoils, such as
> meat, are unevenly divided. Most males die of the consequences of
> violence, and roughly half of their aggression is directed at third
> parties (some high-ranking male in a bad mood takes it out on an
> innocent bystander, such as a female or a subordinate male).
>
> Male baboons, moreover, can fight amazingly dirty. I saw this happen a
> few years ago in one of the troops I study: Two males had fought, and
> one, having been badly trounced, assumed a crouching stance, with his
> rear end up in the air. This is universally recognized among savanna
> baboons as an abject gesture of subordination, signaling an end to the
> conflict, and the conventional response on the part of the victorious
> male is to subject the other to a ritualized gesture of dominance
> (such as mounting him). In this instance, however, the winner,
> approaching the loser as if to mount him, instead abruptly gave him a
> deep slash with his canines.
>
> A baboon group, in short, is an unlikely breeding ground for
> pacifists. Nevertheless, there are some interesting exceptions. In
> recent years, for example, it has been recognized that a certain
> traditional style of chest-thumping evolutionary thinking is wrong.
> According to the standard logic, males compete with one another
> aggressively in order to achieve and maintain a high rank, which will
> in turn enable them to dominate reproduction and thus maximize the
> number of copies of their genes that are passed on to the next
> generation. But although aggression among baboons does indeed have
> something to do with attaining a high rank, it turns out to have
> virtually nothing to do with maintaining it. Dominant males rarely are
> particularly aggressive, and those that are typically are on their way
> out: the ones that need to use it are often about to lose it. Instead,
> maintaining dominance requires social intelligence and impulse control
> -- the ability to form prudent coalitions, show some tolerance of
> subordinates, and ignore most provocations.
>
> Recent work, moreover, has demonstrated that females have something to
> say about which males get to pass on their genes. The traditional view
> was based on a "linear access" model of reproduction: if one female is
> in heat, the alpha male gets to mate with her; if two are in heat, the
> alpha male and the second-ranking male get their opportunity; and so
> on. Yet we now know that female baboons are pretty good at getting
> away from even champions of male-male competition if they want to and
> can sneak off instead with another male they actually desire. And who
> would that be? Typically, it is a male that has followed a different
> strategy of building affiliative relations with the female -- grooming
> her a lot, helping to take care of her kids, not beating her up. These
> nice-guy males seem to pass on at least as many copies of their genes
> as their more aggressive peers, not least because they can go like
> this for years, without the life-shortening burnout and injuries of
> the gladiators.
>
> And so the crude picture of combat as the sole path to evolutionary
> success is wrong. The average male baboon does opt for the combative
> route, but there are important phases of his life when aggression is
> less important than social intelligence and restraint, and there are
> evolutionarily fruitful alternative courses of action.
>
> Even within the bare-knuckle world of male-male aggression, we are now
> recognizing some surprising outposts of primate civility. For one
> thing, primates can make up after a fight. Such reconciliation was
> first described by Frans de Waal, of Emory University, in the early
> 1980s; it has now been observed in some 27 different species of
> primates, including male chimps, and it works as it is supposed to,
> reducing the odds of further aggression between the two ex-combatants.
> And various primates, including male baboons, will sometimes
> cooperate, for example by supporting one another in a fight.
> Coalitions can involve reciprocity and even induce what appears to be
> a sense of justice or fairness. In a remarkable study by de Waal and
> one of his students, capuchin monkeys were housed in adjacent cages. A
> monkey could obtain food on its own (by pulling a tray of food toward
> its cage) or with help from a neighbor (by pulling a heavier tray
> together); in the latter case, only one of the monkeys was given
> access to the food in question. The monkeys that collaborated proved
> more likely to share it with their neighbor.
>
> Even more striking are lifelong patterns of cooperation among some
> male chimps, such as those that form bands of brothers. Among certain
> primate species, all the members of one gender will leave their home
> troop around puberty, thus avoiding the possibility of genetically
> deleterious inbreeding. Among chimps, the females leave home, and as a
> result, male chimps typically spend their lives in the company of
> close male relatives. Animal behaviorists steeped in game theory spend
> careers trying to figure out how reciprocal cooperation gets started
> among nonrelatives, but it is clear that stable reciprocity among
> relatives emerges readily.
>
> Thus, even the violent primates engage in reconciliation and
> cooperation -- but only up to a point. For starters, as noted in
> regard to the bonobo, there would be nothing to reconcile without
> violence and conflict in the first place. Furthermore, reconciliation
> is not universal: female savanna baboons are good at it, for example,
> but males are not. Most important, even among species and genders that
> do reconcile, it is not an indiscriminate phenomenon: individuals are
> more likely to reconcile with those who can be useful to them. This
> was demonstrated in a brilliant study by Marina Cords, of Columbia
> University, in which the value of some relationships among a type of
> macaque monkey was artificially raised. Animals were again caged next
> to each other under conditions in which they could obtain food by
> themselves or through cooperation, and those pairs that developed the
> capacity for cooperation were three times as likely to reconcile after
> induced aggression as noncooperators. Tension-reducing reconciliation,
> in other words, is most likely to occur among animals who already are
> in the habit of cooperating and have an incentive to keep doing so.
>
> Some deflating points emerge from the studies of cooperation as well,
> such as the fact that coalitions are notoriously unstable. In one
> troop of baboons I studied in the early 1980s, male-male coalitions
> lasted less than two days on average before collapsing, and most cases
> of such collapse involved one partner failing to reciprocate or, even
> more dramatically, defecting to the other side during a fight.
> finally, and most discouraging, is the use to which most coalitions
> are put. In theory, cooperation could trump individualism in order to,
> say, improve food gathering or defend against predators. In practice,
> two baboons that cooperate typically do so in order to make a third
> miserable.
>
> Goodall was the first to report the profoundly disquieting fact that
> bands of related male chimps carry out cooperative "border patrols" --
> searching along the geographic boundary separating their group from
> another and attacking neighboring males they encounter, even to the
> point of killing other groups off entirely. In-group cooperation can
> thus usher in not peace and tranquility, but rather more efficient
> extermination.
>
> So primate species with some of the most aggressive and stratified
> social systems have been seen to cooperate and resolve conflicts --
> but not consistently, not necessarily for benign purposes, and not in
> a cumulative way that could lead to some fundamentally non-Hobbesian
> social outcomes. The lesson appears to be not that violent primates
> can transcend their natures, but merely that the natures of these
> species are subtler and more multifaceted than previously thought. At
> least that was the lesson until quite recently.
>
> OLD PRIMATES AND NEW TRICKS
>
> To some extent, the age-old "nature versus nurture" debate is silly.
> The action of genes is completely intertwined with the environment in
> which they function; in a sense, it is pointless to even discuss what
> gene X does, and we should consider instead only what gene X does in
> environment Y. Nonetheless, if one had to predict the behavior of some
> organism on the basis of only one fact, one might still want to know
> whether the most useful fact would be about genetics or about the
> environment.
>
> The first two studies to show that primates were somewhat independent
> from their "natures" involved a classic technique in behavioral
> genetics called cross-fostering. Suppose some animal has engaged in a
> particular behavior for generations -- call it behavior A. We want to
> know if that behavior is due to shared genes or to a
> multigenerationally shared environment. Researchers try to answer the
> question by cross-fostering the animal, that is, switching the
> animal's mother at birth so that she is raised by one with behavior B,
> and then watching to see which behavior the animal displays when she
> grows up. One problem with this approach is that an animal's
> environment does not begin at birth -- a fetus shares a very intimate
> environment with its mother, namely the body's circulation, chock-full
> of hormones and nutrients that can cause lifelong changes in brain
> function and behavior. Therefore, the approach can be applied only
> asymmetrically: if a behavior persists in a new environment, one
> cannot conclude that genes are the cause, but if a behavior changes in
> a new environment, then one can conclude that genes are not the cause.
> This is where the two studies come in.
>
> In the early 1970s, a highly respected primatologist named Hans Kummer
> was working in Ethiopia, in a region containing two species of baboons
> with markedly different social systems. Savanna baboons live in large
> troops, with plenty of adult females and males. Hamadryas baboons, in
> contrast, have a more complex, multilevel society. Because they live
> in a much harsher, drier region, hamadryas have a distinctive
> ecological problem. Some resources are singular and scarce -- like a
> rare watering hole or a good cliff face to sleep on at night in order
> to evade predators -- and large numbers of animals are likely to want
> to share them. Other resources, such as the vegetation they eat, are
> sparse and widely dispersed, requiring animals to function in small,
> separate groups. As a result, hamadryas have evolved a "harem"
> structure -- a single adult male surrounded by a handful of adult
> females and their children -- with large numbers of discrete harems
> converging, peacefully, for short periods at the occasional desirable
> watering hole or cliff face.
>
> Kummer conducted a simple experiment, trapping an adult female savanna
> baboon and releasing her into a hamadryas troop and trapping an adult
> female hamadryas and releasing her into a savanna troop. Among
> hamadryas, if a male threatens a female, it is almost certainly this
> brute who dominates the harem, and the only way for the female to
> avoid injury is to approach him -- i.e., return to the fold. But among
> savanna baboons, if a male threatens a female, the way for her to
> avoid injury is to run away. In Kummer's experiment, the females who
> were dropped in among a different species initially carried out their
> species-typical behavior, a major faux pas in the new neighborhood.
> But gradually, they assimilated the new rules. How long did this
> learning take? About an hour. In other words, millennia of genetic
> differences separating the two species, a lifetime of experience with
> a crucial social rule for each female, and a miniscule amount of time
> to reverse course completely.
>
> The second experiment was set up by de Waal and his student Denise
> Johanowicz in the early 1990s, working with two macaque monkey
> species. By any human standards, male rhesus macaques are unappealing
> animals. Their hierarchies are rigid, those at the top seize a
> disproportionate share of the spoils, they enforce this inequity with
> ferocious aggression, and they rarely reconcile after fights. Male
> stump tail macaques, in contrast, which share almost all of their
> genes with their rhesus macaque cousins, display much less aggression,
> more affiliative behaviors, looser hierarchies, and more
> egalitarianism.
>
> Working with captive primates, de Waal and Johanowicz created a
> mixed-sex social group of juvenile macaques, combining rhesus and
> stump tails together. Remarkably, instead of the rhesus macaques
> bullying the stump tails, over the course of a few months, the rhesus
> males adopted the stump tails' social style, eventually even matching
> the stump tails' high rates of reconciliatory behavior. It so happens,
> moreover, that stump tails and rhesus macaques use different gestures
> when reconciling. The rhesus macaques in the study did not start using
> the stump tails' reconciliatory gestures, but rather increased the
> incidence of their own species-typical gestures. In other words, they
> were not merely imitating the stump tails' behavior; they were
> incorporating the concept of frequent reconciliation into their own
> social practices. When the newly warm-and-fuzzy rhesus macaques were
> returned to a larger, all-rhesus group, finally, their new behavioral
> style persisted.
>
> This is nothing short of extraordinary. But it brings up one last
> question: When those rhesus macaques were transferred back into the
> all-rhesus world, did they spread their insights and behaviors to the
> others? Alas, they did not. For that, we need to move on to our final
> case.
>
> LEFT BEHIND
>
> In the early 1980s, "Forest Troop," a group of savanna baboons I had
> been studying -- virtually living with -- for years, was going about
> its business in a national park in Kenya when a neighboring baboon
> group had a stroke of luck: its territory encompassed a tourist lodge
> that expanded its operations and consequently the amount of food
> tossed into its garbage dump. Baboons are omnivorous, and "Garbage
> Dump Troop" was delighted to feast on leftover drumsticks, half-eaten
> hamburgers, remnants of chocolate cake, and anything else that wound
> up there. Soon they had shifted to sleeping in the trees immediately
> above the pit, descending each morning just in time for the day's
> dumping of garbage. (They soon got quite obese from the rich diet and
> lack of exercise, but that is another story.)
>
> The development produced nearly as dramatic a shift in the social
> behavior of Forest Troop. Each morning, approximately half of its
> adult males would infiltrate Garbage Dump Troop's territory,
> descending on the pit in time for the day's dumping and battling the
> resident males for access to the garbage. The Forest Troop males that
> did this shared two traits: they were particularly combative (which
> was necessary to get the food away from the other baboons), and they
> were not very interested in socializing (the raids took place early in
> the morning, during the hours when the bulk of a savanna baboon's
> daily communal grooming occurs).
>
> Soon afterward, tuberculosis, a disease that moves with devastating
> speed and severity in nonhuman primates, broke out in Garbage Dump
> Troop. Over the next year, most of its members died, as did all of the
> males from Forest Troop who had foraged at the dump.[See Footnote #1]
> The results were that Forest Troop was left with males who were less
> aggressive and more social than average and the troop now had double
> its previous female-to-male ratio.
>
> The social consequences of these changes were dramatic. There remained
> a hierarchy among the Forest Troop males, but it was far looser than
> before: compared with other, more typical savanna baboon groups,
> high-ranking males rarely harassed subordinates and occasionally even
> relinquished contested resources to them. Aggression was less
> frequent, particularly against third parties. And rates of affiliative
> behaviors, such as males and females grooming each other or sitting
> together, soared. There were even instances, now and then, of adult
> males grooming each other -- a behavior nearly as unprecedented as
> baboons sprouting wings.
>
> This unique social milieu did not arise merely as a function of the
> skewed sex ratio; other primatologists have occasionally reported on
> troops with similar ratios but without a comparable social atmosphere.
> What was key was not just the predominance of females, but the type of
> male that remained. The demographic disaster -- what evolutionary
> biologists term a "selective bottleneck" -- had produced a savanna
> baboon troop quite different from what most experts would have
> anticipated.
>
> But the largest surprise did not come until some years later. Female
> savanna baboons spend their lives in the troop into which they are
> born, whereas males leave their birth troop around puberty; a troop's
> adult males have thus all grown up elsewhere and immigrated as
> adolescents. By the early 1990s, none of the original low
> aggression/high affiliation males of Forest Troop's tuberculosis
> period was still alive; all of the group's adult males had joined
> after the epidemic. Despite this, the troop's unique social milieu
> persisted -- as it does to this day, some 20 years after the selective
> bottleneck.In other words, adolescent males that enter Forest Troop
> after having grown up elsewhere wind up adopting the unique behavioral
> style of the resident males. As defined by both anthropologists and
> animal behaviorists, "culture" consists of local behavioral
> variations, occurring for nongenetic and nonecological reasons, that
> last beyond the time of their originators. Forest Troop's low
> aggression/high affiliation society constitutes nothing less than a
> multigenerational benign culture.
>
> Continuous study of the troop has yielded some insights into how its
> culture is transmitted to newcomers. Genetics obviously plays no role,
> nor apparently does self-selection: adolescent males that transfer
> into the troop are no different from those that transfer into other
> troops, displaying on arrival similarly high rates of aggression and
> low rates of affiliation. Nor is there evidence that new males are
> taught to act in benign ways by the residents. One cannot rule out the
> possibility that some observational learning is occurring, but it is
> difficult to detect given that the distinctive feature of this culture
> is not the performance of a unique behavior but the performance of
> typical behaviors at atypically extreme rates.
>
> To date, the most interesting hint about the mechanism of transmission
> is the way recently transferred males are treated by Forest Troop's
> resident females. In a typical savanna baboon troop, newly transferred
> adolescent males spend years slowly working their way into the social
> fabric; they are extremely low ranking -- ignored by females and noted
> by adult males only as convenient targets for aggression. In Forest
> Troop, by contrast, new male transfers are inundated with female
> attention soon after their arrival. Resident females first present
> themselves sexually to new males an average of 18 days after the males
> arrive, and they first groom the new males an average of 20 days after
> they arrive (normal savanna baboons introduce such behaviors after 63
> and 78 days, respectively). Furthermore, these welcoming gestures
> occur more frequently in Forest Troop during the early post-transfer
> period, and there is four times as much grooming of males by females
> in Forest Troop as elsewhere. From almost the moment they arrive, in
> other words, new males find out that in Forest Troop, things are done
> differently.
>
> At present, I think the most plausible explanation is that this
> troop's special culture is not passed on actively but simply emerges,
> facilitated by the actions of the resident members. Living in a group
> with half the typical number of males, and with the males being nice
> guys to boot, Forest Troop's females become more relaxed and less
> wary. As a result, they are more willing to take a chance and reach
> out socially to new arrivals, even if the new guys are typical jerky
> adolescents at first. The new males, in turn, finding themselves
> treated so well, eventually relax and adopt the behaviors of the
> troop's distinctive social milieu.
>
> NATURAL BORN KILLERS?
>
> Are there any lessons to be learned here that can be applied to
> human-on-human violence -- apart, that is, from the possible
> desirability of giving fatal cases of tuberculosis to aggressive
> people?
>
> Any biological anthropologist opining about human behavior is required
> by long-established tradition to note that for 99 percent of human
> history, humans lived in small, stable bands of related
> hunter-gatherers. Game theorists have shown that a small, cohesive
> group is the perfect setting for the emergence of cooperation: the
> identities of the other participants are known, there are
> opportunities for multiple iterations of games (and thus the ability
> to punish cheaters), and there is open-book play (players can acquire
> reputations). And so, those hunter-gatherer bands were highly
> egalitarian. Empirical and experimental data have also shown the
> cooperative advantages of small groups at the opposite human extreme,
> namely in the corporate world.
>
> But the lack of violence within small groups can come at a heavy
> price. Small homogenous groups with shared values can be a nightmare
> of conformity. They can also be dangerous for outsiders. Unconsciously
> emulating the murderous border patrols of closely related male chimps,
> militaries throughout history have sought to form small, stable units;
> inculcate them with rituals of pseudokinship; and thereby produce
> efficient, cooperative killing machines.
>
> Is it possible to achieve the cooperative advantages of a small group
> without having the group reflexively view outsiders as the Other? One
> way is through trade. Voluntary economic exchanges not only produce
> profits; they can also reduce social friction -- as the macaques
> demonstrated by being more likely to reconcile with a valued partner
> in food acquisition.
>
> Another way is through a fission-fusion social structure, in which the
> boundaries between groups are not absolute and impermeable. The model
> here is not the multilevel society of the hamadryas baboons, both
> because their basic social unit of the harem is despotic and because
> their fusion consists of nothing more than lots of animals
> occasionally coming together to utilize a resource peacefully. Human
> hunter-gatherers are a better example to follow, in that their small
> bands often merge, split, or exchange members for a while, with such
> fluidity helping to solve not only environmental resource problems but
> social problems as well. The result is that instead of the
> all-or-nothing world of male chimps, in which there is only one's own
> group and the enemy, hunter-gatherers can enjoy gradations of
> familiarity and cooperation stretching over large areas.
>
> The interactions among hunter-gatherers resemble those of other
> networks, where there are individual nodes (in this case, small
> groups) and where the majority of interactions between the nodes are
> local ones, with the frequency of interactions dropping off as a
> function of distance. Mathematicians have shown that when the ratios
> among short-, middle-, and long-distance interactions are optimal,
> networks are robust: they are dominated by highly cooperative clusters
> of local interactions, but they also retain the potential for less
> frequent, long-distance communication and coordination.
>
> Optimizing the fission-fusion interactions of hunter-gatherer networks
> is easy: cooperate within the band; schedule frequent joint hunts with
> the next band over; have occasional hunts with bands somewhat farther
> out; have a legend of a single shared hunt with a mythic band at the
> end of the earth. Optimizing the fission-fusion interactions in
> contemporary human networks is vastly harder, but the principles are
> the same.
>
> In exploring these subjects, one often encounters a pessimism built
> around the notion that humans, as primates, are hard-wired for
> xenophobia. Some brain-imaging studies have appeared to support this
> view in a particularly discouraging way. There is a structure deep
> inside the brain called the amygdala, which plays a key role in fear
> and aggression, and experiments have shown that when subjects are
> presented with a face of someone from a different race, the amygdala
> gets metabolically active -- aroused, alert, ready for action. This
> happens even when the face is presented "subliminally," which is to
> say, so rapidly that the subject does not consciously see it.
>
> More recent studies, however, should mitigate this pessimism. Test a
> person who has a lot of experience with people of different races, and
> the amygdala does not activate. Or, as in a wonderful experiment by
> Susan Fiske, of Princeton University, subtly bias the subject
> beforehand to think of people as individuals rather than as members of
> a group, and the amygdala does not budge. Humans may be hard-wired to
> get edgy around the Other, but our views on who falls into that
> category are decidedly malleable.
>
> In the early 1960s, a rising star of primatology, Irven DeVore, of
> Harvard University, published the first general overview of the
> subject. Discussing his own specialty, savanna baboons, he wrote that
> they "have acquired an aggressive temperament as a defense against
> predators, and aggressiveness cannot be turned on and off like a
> faucet. It is an integral part of the monkeys' personalities, so
> deeply rooted that it makes them potential aggressors in every
> situation." Thus the savanna baboon became, literally, a textbook
> example of life in an aggressive, highly stratified, male-dominated
> society. Yet within a few years, members of the species demonstrated
> enough behavioral plasticity to transform a society of theirs into a
> baboon utopia.
>
> The first half of the twentieth century was drenched in the blood
> spilled by German and Japanese aggression, yet only a few decades
> later it is hard to think of two countries more pacific. Sweden spent
> the seventeenth century rampaging through Europe, yet it is now an
> icon of nurturing tranquility. Humans have invented the small nomadic
> band and the continental megastate, and have demonstrated a
> flexibility whereby uprooted descendants of the former can function
> effectively in the latter. We lack the type of physiology or anatomy
> that in other mammals determine their mating system, and have come up
> with societies based on monogamy, polygyny, and polyandry. And we have
> fashioned some religions in which violent acts are the entrée to
> paradise and other religions in which the same acts consign one to
> hell. Is a world of peacefully coexisting human Forest Troops
> possible? Anyone who says, "No, it is beyond our nature," knows too
> little about primates, including ourselves.
>
> [Footnote #1] Considerable sleuthing ultimately revealed that the
> disease had come from tainted meat in the garbage dump, which had been
> sold to the tourist lodge thanks to a corrupt meat inspector. The
> studies were the first of this kind of outbreak in a wild primate
> population and showed that, in contrast to what happens with humans
> and captive primates, there was little animal-to-animal transmission
> of the tuberculosis, and so the disease did not spread in Forest Troop
> beyond the garbage eaters.</x-flowed>

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@...>
To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 19:40:52 -0000
Subject: [metatuning] Re: Evolution

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:

> Other than the fact that chimps and humans are not related to each
other but to a common anscestor, my biggest objection is that people
don't know who the Bonobo are. We have the same DNA percentage as
they do, but they are inconvenient to discuss.

Bonobo are much more closely related to common chimps than either are
to humans.

> Even Orangutans are more like us than chimps.

They are highly intelligent and much more dignified, but they are not
social animals and their DNA isn't as close.

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🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

3/27/2006 12:22:53 PM

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
> But I'd always read it a different way. Given the context of
> this thread, perhaps you can guess which way.

I'm not going to guess someone else's interpretation of a phrase in a
language I don't understand fluently. If you mean this to be a game,
just say so. If you are trying to communicate something, do so. I was
really interested in whatever your message was, as contained in that
phrase, but the interest is waning quickly.

Jon

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

3/29/2006 12:00:49 PM

> I saw the quote in a number of sources (untranslated) and the words
> appear correct. The point is that I don't want to piece it together
> word by word, I'd like to know what Carl's reading/translation of
> the phrase is.

It's possible I'm taking it out of context. The topic I wanted
to raise is that of creatio ex nihilo and creatio continua.
Here's one google result on that

http://www.earlychurch.org.uk/article_exnihilo_copan.html

-Carl

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

3/29/2006 12:31:19 PM

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@>
> wrote:
>
> > (I think (or hope) we can all agree here that Hitler never
> > wanted war.
>
> Hitler enjoyed his experience in WW1, and thought war was good for
the
> folk. He wanted war.
>
++++++++ Gene

Don't know enough about Hitler to say how he felt at the
beginning. If he had this attitude at the very beginning
I am sure he didn't have it towards the end.

One point I'm trying to make, is that if these European nations
truly wanted peace, they could have surrendered before being
invaded. The 'peace at any price' concept.

Some people don't want to be at war with Al-Qaeda either.

-Stephen

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

3/29/2006 12:44:14 PM

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@ wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > I just came across this incomprehensible thread:
> >
> > http://www.sgtstryker.com/weblog/archives/003367.php
> >
> > I don't have any opinion on it. I'm just giving you
> > something to do until someone responds.
>
> That's been suggested, but the estimate given on the relationship
> between human and chimp DNA is at the very high end. Moreover,
there
> are some striking differences.
>
> Here's a better article on that recent study:
>
> http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3744

++++++++++++ From link:

The closeness of relationship between chimps and humans has become
an important issue outside taxonomy, becoming part of the debate
over the use of chimps in laboratory experiments and over their
conservation in the wild.

(I see a animal rights stuff conflict of interest here. S. Szpak)

>
> Here's a contradictory study:
>
> http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2833

From link:

It has long been held that we share 98.5 per cent of our genetic
material with our closest relatives. That now appears to be wrong.
In fact, we share less than 95 per cent of our genetic material, a
three-fold increase in the variation between us and chimps.

(Thery're probably still wrong. S. Szpak)

Thanks Gene,

-Stephen

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

3/29/2006 12:46:29 PM

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak" <stephen_szpak@>
> wrote:
>
> > Written by a non-Christian, 1996. Have your library
> > get it for you. Basically he proves (to my satisfaction)
> > that science, that is pure science, has ended. For example,
> > string theory.
>
> He proves that by twisting people's answers he can force a
> preconcieved conclusion.
>
++++++ Gene

I see a fight coming here. Don't want that. I assume you
have read the book and disagree with much of it????????

-Stephen

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

3/29/2006 1:14:55 PM

General comments to whoever:::::::::::

Anything that dehumanizes humanity rubs me the wrong way.
We ARE special. To put it another way, if you are not special,
then no one you love is special either.

Summary: Humans like to think that they are unique, but the study of
> other primates has called into question the exceptionalism of
our
> species.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Weird coincidence, (with the talks here on Mars and Venus).(Szpak)

As the sound bite has it, chimps
> are from Mars and bonobos are from Venus.
------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe they had to experience traumatic defeats to get them there.
After the American Civil War, thoughts of seriously leaving the union
have rarely if ever occured. (Szpak)

The first half of the twentieth century was drenched in the blood
> spilled by German and Japanese aggression, yet only a few
decades
> later it is hard to think of two countries more pacific.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

3/29/2006 1:16:38 PM

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@> wrote:
> > But I'd always read it a different way. Given the context of
> > this thread, perhaps you can guess which way.
>
> I'm not going to guess someone else's interpretation of a phrase in a
> language I don't understand fluently. If you mean this to be a game,
> just say so. If you are trying to communicate something, do so. I was
> really interested in whatever your message was, as contained in that
> phrase, but the interest is waning quickly.
>
> Jon
>
+++ Jon, did Carl answer us somewhere? -Stephen

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

3/29/2006 1:22:18 PM

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Kees van Prooijen" <lists@...>
wrote:
> Kees

God knows the future, and God can change the future.

-Stephen

> My guess is, it is the notion that time was created at the same
time as
> the rest of the world (God created the world with time, not in
time).
> (Just like there's no sense in talking what was there before the
Big
> Bang in real valued time)

of course that should be formulated:

"time was created together with the rest of the world" :-)