Mahler

"Mahler is all confusion and eclecticism, and that is what is attractive: In
Germany they didn't like him precisely because of this confusion, this lack of
cleanliness. What saved Mahler was, in fact, the Israeli Philharmonic
Orchestra: Had it not been for Hitler and the Holocaust he would have been forgotten,
because he was a Jew and the Jewish motif was present in his music and
deterred the Germans, too. There is suffering in his music, and distress, and there
is no charm in it. And this is the authorization to contemporary composers who
lack inspiration: If Mahler is eclectic and devoid of meaning - and these are
after all characteristics of modern music - so why not I, too? He gave an
easy solution to compositional problems. And Leonard Bernstein, a really terrible
composer who promoted him, found a solution in him - not only to composing
but also for his Judaism."

Arik Shapira was born in November 29, 1943, an internationally honored
composer from Israel. Thought this would be of interest.

Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>And Leonard Bernstein, a
>really terrible
>composer who promoted him

i wonder if "Arik Shapira" has written anything as immortal as some of the
tunes in West Side Story? i doubt it.

Shapiro was asked:

Don't you trust the instrumentalists?

"Indeed I do, but I want to introduce a new experience, to discover something
new about sound, about accompaniment and melody, about rhythm. I have found,
for example, that a third-tone is a new sound: A quarter or an eighth is a
false note, but a third is new. And it can be achieved only with a computer. An
instrumentalist will never achieve such precision."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mahler does have charm and some very terrifying moments. He is the first post modernist too which supports what is said below but he fails to recognize it in the proper context. .
his succession of emotions are sometimes to me incomprehensible.
i have often thought it was deliberate deconstruction of late romanticism, a cubist breakdown in front of an audience
but this would place him maybe 50-60 years before his time.
It goes to show how so called more conservative music can actually be anything but.

he is a first rate orchestrator and painter in this regard.
like so many composers who did not get to hear there work much while alive, he reused the same material a bit too much.

bernstein is no better than richard rogers if we are going for 'tunes' or cole porter.
he was a great champion of much new music and i do believe without bernstein mahler might have been lost ( which should have happened to the bruckner) but likewise composers such as britten, roy harris, samuel barber, and even shostakovitch might not be where they are today without him.
Afmmjr@... wrote:

>"Mahler is all confusion and eclecticism, and that is what is attractive: In >Germany they didn't like him precisely because of this confusion, this lack of >cleanliness. What saved Mahler was, in fact, the Israeli Philharmonic >Orchestra: Had it not been for Hitler and the Holocaust he would have been forgotten, >because he was a Jew and the Jewish motif was present in his music and >deterred the Germans, too. There is suffering in his music, and distress, and there >is no charm in it. And this is the authorization to contemporary composers who >lack inspiration: If Mahler is eclectic and devoid of meaning - and these are >after all characteristics of modern music - so why not I, too? He gave an >easy solution to compositional problems. And Leonard Bernstein, a really terrible >composer who promoted him, found a solution in him - not only to composing >but also for his Judaism."
>
>Arik Shapira was born in November 29, 1943, an internationally honored >composer from Israel. Thought this would be of interest.
>
>Johnny >
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
>
> "Mahler is all confusion and eclecticism, and that is
> what is attractive: In Germany they didn't like him
> precisely because of this confusion, this lack of
> cleanliness. What saved Mahler was, in fact, the
> Israeli Philharmonic Orchestra: Had it not been for
> Hitler and the Holocaust he would have been forgotten,
> because he was a Jew and the Jewish motif was present
> in his music and deterred the Germans, too. There is
> suffering in his music, and distress, and there is no
> charm in it.

Shapira started off OK on this quote, but "no charm"
in Mahler's music? Come on, now ... Mahler's music is
so complex that it does included charm in some moments,
along with the bombast, neuroticism, grandeur, folk-like
simplicity, etc., in other moments.

> And this is the authorization to contemporary composers
> who lack inspiration: If Mahler is eclectic and devoid
> of meaning - and these are after all characteristics of
> modern music - so why not I, too? He gave an easy solution
> to compositional problems.

Whoa, hold on there. Mahler is certainly eclectic,
but "devoid of meaning"? -- no way! His music is
imbued with more meaning than *any* other composer's.
Crammed full with meaning, in fact.

-monz

Monz, others:

I'll be a bit more blunt - this Shapiro guy has his head up his ass,
at least with his take on Gustav. He doesn't even seem to have much of
a grasp of either Mahler's personal and professional life, and seems
to have a skewed perspective on the historical import and impact of
his music.

But everyone is entitled to their opinions...

Cheers,
Jon

Hi Jon, Johnny, Dante,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@c...> wrote:
>
> Monz, others:
>
> I'll be a bit more blunt - this Shapiro guy has his head
> up his ass, at least with his take on Gustav. He doesn't
> even seem to have much of a grasp of either Mahler's
> personal and professional life, and seems to have a
> skewed perspective on the historical import and impact
> of his music.

Yeah, you know i'm going to agree with *you* on this one!

This is another part i really don't get:

> [Shapiro]
> What saved Mahler was, in fact, the Israeli Philharmonic
> Orchestra: Had it not been for Hitler and the Holocaust
> he would have been forgotten, because he was a Jew and
> the Jewish motif was present in his music and deterred
> the Germans, too.

In fact, after the monumental premiere of Mahler's
_8th Symphony_ ("Symphony of a Thousand") in Munich
in September 1910, and even moreso after his death
in May 1911, Mahler's star was on the rise, especially
in Germanic cultural areas of Europe.

It was precisely Hitler who banned Mahler's music
(since Mahler was Jewish) and nipped that rising star
in the bud, causing Mahler to be largely forgotten
after World War 2.

And after the centennial of Mahler's birth in 1960,
which brought his name back out to the public again,
it was precisely Leonard Bernstein who, by his endless
promotion of Mahler, put that star back in the sky.

Ever since then, Mahler's music has continued to
increase in popularity with no letup, and as more
and more people learn his music, fascination with
his life and personality keeps increasing too.

Contrary to Shapiro's opinion of Bernstein, i agree
with Dante that Bernstein was a fine composer (i too
think _West Side Story_ is his masterpiece, but he
wrote other good stuff too), and i see a *lot* of
parallels between Bernstein and Mahler -- and i'm
sure that Bernstein saw those parallels too, which
is probably why he identified so much with Mahler and
promoted his work so much.

http://tonalsoft.com/enc/v/vienna.htm
"A Century of New Music in Vienna"

-- for those who want to read the real information
on Mahler.

-monz

Monz,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
> And after the centennial of Mahler's birth in 1960,
> which brought his name back out to the public again,
> it was precisely Leonard Bernstein who, by his endless
> promotion of Mahler, put that star back in the sky.

Exactly. And there was a fine documentary about the first Mahler
performances that Lenny directed with the Vienna Phil, the first they
had done since pre-war. They were initially more than skeptical,
making fun of the low-brow nature of some of the work, but he won them
over.

> Contrary to Shapiro's opinion of Bernstein, i agree
> with Dante that Bernstein was a fine composer

Certainly. Not without weak spots, but for someone who wasn't *only* a
composer, he could really spin out some great stuff. I've long enjoyed
"Chichester Psalms", but I tend to think the sleeper of his output
might be the complete "Candide".

Cheers,
Jon

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:

> Contrary to Shapiro's opinion of Bernstein, i agree
> with Dante that Bernstein was a fine composer (i too
> think _West Side Story_ is his masterpiece, but he
> wrote other good stuff too), and i see a *lot* of
> parallels between Bernstein and Mahler -- and i'm
> sure that Bernstein saw those parallels too, which
> is probably why he identified so much with Mahler and
> promoted his work so much.

I'd say the parallel between Bernstein and Mahler is pretty clear in
Mass, where Bernstein puts in everything and the kitchen sink. It's
not something most composers could even began to attempt. I don't
think anyone but Bernstein could have actually done it. Other notable
works are Candide, the Chichester Psalms, Serenade, and On The Town.
As for Porter, he may not have had the amazing range of Lenny
Bernstein, but his extraordinary cleverness was unqiue. Anyone
thinking ill of him is invited to write something half as witty and
infectiously musical as
Your The Top or the rest of Anything Goes.

Gene,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> I'd say the parallel between Bernstein and Mahler is pretty clear in
> Mass...

Spot on, on all your observations about Bernstein. I just finished the
first of three performances of his "Serenade" for violin, strings,
harp, and percussion. Not necessarily his greatest work, but you can
always spot the excellence when it is there.

> As for Porter

Exactly. It is also one thing to write a melody, but to craft it to
some incredible lyrics? That is another step beyond just instrumental
creation, and our hats must doff.

As much as I love the music of today, and especially of youth today, I
wonder if we'll ever re-experience the synergy of lyrics and music
that came in the Tin Pan Alley era (and just post-TPA).

Cheers,
Jon

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@c...> wrote:

> Spot on, on all your observations about Bernstein. I just finished the
> first of three performances of his "Serenade" for violin, strings,
> harp, and percussion. Not necessarily his greatest work, but you can
> always spot the excellence when it is there.

Thanks. Not his greatest, but a sweet and deeply-felt piece. I think
he does better with that than when he tries for the Mahleresque of his
symphonies, but as I remarked Mass in all of its sometimes crazed and
sometimes vulgar magnificence really does finally hit the
all-inclusive note.

> As much as I love the music of today, and especially of youth today, I
> wonder if we'll ever re-experience the synergy of lyrics and music
> that came in the Tin Pan Alley era (and just post-TPA).

I sort of gave up on popular music about 15 years ago myself, but it's
been a long time since George Gershwin. I'm glad to see some revival
of interest in the best of Broadway, with the Library of Congress
doing its bit. Nobody writes things like Lady Be Good anymore, any
more than we still hear symphones like Brahms or operas like Wagner.
The past keeps going into the past.

Hi Jon,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@c...> wrote:

> > Contrary to Shapiro's opinion of Bernstein, i agree
> > with Dante that Bernstein was a fine composer
>
> Certainly. Not without weak spots, but for someone who
> wasn't *only* a composer, he could really spin out some
> great stuff. I've long enjoyed "Chichester Psalms", but
> I tend to think the sleeper of his output might be the
> complete "Candide".

And there are a *lot* of folks who agree with you there.

I love the overture to _Candide_, but have never seen
or heard the whole show (opera?). But _West Side Story_
has always been one of my favorite theatrical works.

-monz

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:

> I sort of gave up on popular music about 15 years ago
> myself, but it's been a long time since George Gershwin.
> I'm glad to see some revival of interest in the best of
> Broadway, with the Library of Congress doing its bit.
> Nobody writes things like Lady Be Good anymore, any
> more than we still hear symphones like Brahms or operas
> like Wagner. The past keeps going into the past.

There's some really good new music out there, whether
you categorize it as "pop" or something else. What's
unfortunate is that you really have to look so hard
to find it, because radio and TV are so clogged with
garbage.

-monz

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
> I love the overture to _Candide_, but have never seen
> or heard the whole show (opera?).

In that case, prepare for a revelatory experience similar to mine.
Imagine going for almost an entire musical life (well, 25 years or
more) only playing that overture, knowing it so well like the back of
your palm. And then one day sitting and listening to the complete
recording (and it happend to be the Candide that LB did in London in
the last year of his life) and realizing all the incredible music that
is parsed into snippets in the overture!

There was recently a live production that NY Phil did on "Great
Performances" (PBS) that introduced me to the incredible Kristin
Chenowith, including her singing one of Bernstein's most incredible
pieces of song, "Glitter and Be Gay". Thanks to you for tweaking my
memory on this, I've just gone and searched and found it was released
on DVD:

http://www.image-entertainment.com/detail.cfm?productID=31995

I'm gonna get it! The original production I mentioned in London has
one great advantage in Adolph Green playing Pangloss, but this more
recent one has a crakerjack cast, the band sounds great, and it was
really fun watching it.

Sigh - occasionally music is still fun! :)

Cheers,
Jon

I recently became familiar with Candide in its entirety, and it does contain a lot of amazing
songs. And lyrics, which were worked on by a lot of people, including Stephen Sondheim,
Dorothy Parker, and Lillian Hellman, such as Pangloss's song about syphilis:

Sweet honey comes from bees that sting,
As you are well aware,
To one adept in reasoning
Whatever pains disease may bring
Are but the tangy seasoning
To love's delicious fare.

I have to say, though, that the second half rarely equals the quality of the first, which is
incredible - especially Cunegonde's "Glitter and be Gay" song and

What a day, what a day,
For an auto-da-fe,
What a lovely day for drinking
And for watching people die!

I reread the original Voltaire too, I got so wrapped up in it.

Cheers,

Kyle

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@c...> wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
> > I love the overture to _Candide_, but have never seen
> > or heard the whole show (opera?).
>
> In that case, prepare for a revelatory experience similar to mine.
> Imagine going for almost an entire musical life (well, 25 years or
> more) only playing that overture, knowing it so well like the back of
> your palm. And then one day sitting and listening to the complete
> recording (and it happend to be the Candide that LB did in London in
> the last year of his life) and realizing all the incredible music that
> is parsed into snippets in the overture!
>
> There was recently a live production that NY Phil did on "Great
> Performances" (PBS) that introduced me to the incredible Kristin
> Chenowith, including her singing one of Bernstein's most incredible
> pieces of song, "Glitter and Be Gay". Thanks to you for tweaking my
> memory on this, I've just gone and searched and found it was released
> on DVD:
>
> http://www.image-entertainment.com/detail.cfm?productID=31995
>
> I'm gonna get it! The original production I mentioned in London has
> one great advantage in Adolph Green playing Pangloss, but this more
> recent one has a crakerjack cast, the band sounds great, and it was
> really fun watching it.
>
> Sigh - occasionally music is still fun! :)
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>

this is often the case with allot of pieces.
Do you think because composers write from beginning to end, at least after the first couple of drafts?

kylegann1955 wrote:

> >
>I have to say, though, that the second half rarely equals the quality of the first, which is >incredible - >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles