Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup metatuning The new napalm: USA burning civilians in Iraq

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10907.htm

>> Incinerating Iraqis; the napalm cover up:
>>
>> Two weeks ago the UK Independent ran an article which
>> confirmed that the US had "lied to Britain over the use
>> of napalm in Iraq". (06-17-05) Since then, not one
>> American newspaper or TV station has picked up the
>> story even though the Pentagon has verified the claims.

I had some trouble receiving the streaming video, so
you might just want to download it ... it's big: 45 M.
But the truth is always worth the trouble and effort.

WARNING: This video shows the result of the use of
White Phosphorus, a highly "effective" incendiary weapon
which can burn human flesh to the bone without affecting
the clothing. You will see the corpses of burned civilians.
VIEWER DISCRETION ADVISED!

More info on White Phosphorus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_incendiary

-monz

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗monz <monz@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:

> More info on White Phosphorus:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_incendiary

BTW, note this section of the Wikipedia entry:

>> Arms control status
>>
>> Use of white phosphorus is not specifically banned
>> by any treaty, however the 1980 Convention on
>> Conventional Weapons (Protocol III) prohibits the
>> use of incendiary weapons against civilian populations
>> or by air attack against military forces that are
>> located within concentrations of civilians. The
>> United States is among the nations that have not
>> signed this protocol.

That "1980 Convention" is the *Geneva Convention*.

>> The United States is widely reported to have dropped
>> white phosphorus in the November, 2004 assault on
>> Fallujah, Iraq, although the US government claims that
>> it was used only for illumination and that it was not
>> used against civilians. The government of Italy
>> [ http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7000928347 ]
>> claims that the United States used incendiary white
>> phosphorus against civilians in Iraq.

And the government of Italy is right, and the government
of the United States lied, yet again.

-monz

🔗monz <monz@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@c...> wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
> >
> > http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10907.htm
>
> Yeah, and it isn't just in leftist places or blogs. I first
> caught wind of it on the Christian Science Monitor:
>
> http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1108/dailyUpdate.html
>
> We have to turn this ship around. We won't be respected in my
> lifetime, but for future generations we just have to do better,
> don't you think?

Of course i have to agree with you.

But it's too late now, Jon. American domination of the world
is over now, and we Americans better just get used to the
fact that someone else is going to take over as we become
a "third world" country.

It happened to Rome, it happened to France,
it happened to Germany/Austria, it happened to Britain,
and now it's our turn.

-monz

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

i say we goin thar and finish the jab real quick and catch'em with thar pants down.
butter to light up one country than to curse them dark ages. yeyall

monz wrote:

>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@c...> wrote:
> >
>>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
>> >>
>>>http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10907.htm
>>> >>>
>>Yeah, and it isn't just in leftist places or blogs. I first
>>caught wind of it on the Christian Science Monitor:
>>
>>http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1108/dailyUpdate.html
>>
>>We have to turn this ship around. We won't be respected in my
>>lifetime, but for future generations we just have to do better,
>>don't you think?
>> >>
>
>
>Of course i have to agree with you.
>
>But it's too late now, Jon. American domination of the world
>is over now, and we Americans better just get used to the
>fact that someone else is going to take over as we become
>a "third world" country.
>
>It happened to Rome, it happened to France, >it happened to Germany/Austria, it happened to Britain, >and now it's our turn.
>
>
>
>-monz
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Dante Rosati <dante@...>

I dunno Monz, it seems like American world domination is just getting up
steam. Once we add the missing piece called Iran to our collection, we will
control an unprecedented chunk of real estate over there. Our military can
go anywhere in the world and kick anyone's ass with impungity. Those in
power here can manipulate election results with impugnity as well. We may be
stuck in Iraq for the long haul, but that was always the plan anyway-
they've been building large permanant bases for our forces from the
beginning. Who is there to supplant us anyway? Maybe China could be an
adversary in the future, but if them and us are both making enough $$$
exploiting the rest of the world, they'll probably rather work with us to
divvy up the holdings. Its the New World Order baby! R U ready? Remember
Ruby Ridge!

>-----Original Message-----
>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>Behalf Of monz
>Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 2:20 AM
>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [metatuning] Re: The new napalm: USA burning civilians in Iraq
>
>
>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@c...> wrote:
>>
>> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
>> >
>> > http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10907.htm
>>
>> Yeah, and it isn't just in leftist places or blogs. I first
>> caught wind of it on the Christian Science Monitor:
>>
>> http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1108/dailyUpdate.html
>>
>> We have to turn this ship around. We won't be respected in my
>> lifetime, but for future generations we just have to do better,
>> don't you think?
>
>
>Of course i have to agree with you.
>
>But it's too late now, Jon. American domination of the world
>is over now, and we Americans better just get used to the
>fact that someone else is going to take over as we become
>a "third world" country.
>
>It happened to Rome, it happened to France,
>it happened to Germany/Austria, it happened to Britain,
>and now it's our turn.
>
>
>
>-monz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

luv dum fbi turkay shoots

Dante Rosati wrote:

> Remember
>Ruby Ridge!
>
>
> >
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>>Behalf Of monz
>>Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 2:20 AM
>>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: [metatuning] Re: The new napalm: USA burning civilians in Iraq
>>
>>
>>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@c...> wrote:
>> >>
>>>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>>>http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10907.htm
>>>> >>>>
>>>Yeah, and it isn't just in leftist places or blogs. I first
>>>caught wind of it on the Christian Science Monitor:
>>>
>>>http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1108/dailyUpdate.html
>>>
>>>We have to turn this ship around. We won't be respected in my
>>>lifetime, but for future generations we just have to do better,
>>>don't you think?
>>> >>>
>>Of course i have to agree with you.
>>
>>But it's too late now, Jon. American domination of the world
>>is over now, and we Americans better just get used to the
>>fact that someone else is going to take over as we become
>>a "third world" country.
>>
>>It happened to Rome, it happened to France,
>>it happened to Germany/Austria, it happened to Britain,
>>and now it's our turn.
>>
>>
>>
>>-monz
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>>
>>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>>
>>To post to the list, send to
>>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>You don't have to be a member to post.
>>
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Dante Rosati <dante@...>

yes they not only napalm Iraqi children, but to avoid playing favorites,
they also machine gun 14 year old american children in the back as they run
away.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>Behalf Of Kraig Grady
>Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 3:04 AM
>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: The new napalm: USA burning civilians in
>Iraq
>
>
>luv dum fbi turkay shoots
>
>Dante Rosati wrote:
>
>> Remember
>>Ruby Ridge!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: metatuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metatuning@yahoogroups.com]On
>>>Behalf Of monz
>>>Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 2:20 AM
>>>To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>>>Subject: [metatuning] Re: The new napalm: USA burning civilians in Iraq
>>>
>>>
>>>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@c...> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10907.htm
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Yeah, and it isn't just in leftist places or blogs. I first
>>>>caught wind of it on the Christian Science Monitor:
>>>>
>>>>http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1108/dailyUpdate.html
>>>>
>>>>We have to turn this ship around. We won't be respected in my
>>>>lifetime, but for future generations we just have to do better,
>>>>don't you think?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Of course i have to agree with you.
>>>
>>>But it's too late now, Jon. American domination of the world
>>>is over now, and we Americans better just get used to the
>>>fact that someone else is going to take over as we become
>>>a "third world" country.
>>>
>>>It happened to Rome, it happened to France,
>>>it happened to Germany/Austria, it happened to Britain,
>>>and now it's our turn.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-monz
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>>>
>>>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>>>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>>>
>>>To post to the list, send to
>>>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>You don't have to be a member to post.
>>>
>>>
>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>>
>>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>>
>>To post to the list, send to
>>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>You don't have to be a member to post.
>>
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>--
>Kraig Grady
>North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>The Wandering Medicine Show
>KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

> http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10907.htm
>
> >> Incinerating Iraqis; the napalm cover up:
> >>
> >> Two weeks ago the UK Independent ran an article which
> >> confirmed that the US had "lied to Britain over the use
> >> of napalm in Iraq". (06-17-05) Since then, not one
> >> American newspaper or TV station has picked up the
> >> story even though the Pentagon has verified the claims.

Mr Ingram admitted ... "The US confirmed to my officials that
they had not used MK77s in Iraq ... I have since discovered
that this is not the case..."

MK77s are napalm devices, but it doesn't say how he discovered
they'd been used. Let's check the linked article. It has
the Pentagon saying

"new generation of incendiary weapons, codenamed MK77"

though 500 of them were deployed in the Gulf War, according to
this page

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/mk77.htm

"The use of firebombs puts the US in breach of the 1980 Convention
on Certain Chemical Weapons (CCW) and is a violation the Geneva
Protocol against the use of white phosphorous..."

White phosphorus is not napalm. And based on my research, I
do not believe it is deployed with MK77s. Meanwhile, the US
has not adopted the

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Conventional_Weapons

which is apparently what is meant by

"puts the US in breach of the 1980 Convention on Certain
Chemical Weapons (CCW)"

even though napalm and white phosphorus are not chemical
weapons.

"and is a violation the Geneva Protocol against the use of
white phosphorous"

If this is referring to the Geneva Conventions, I'd like
to see where white phosphorus is banned. If it is referring
to the two additional protocols of 1977, the US didn't
adopt those, and the term "phosphorus" does not occur in
their text

http://www.ohchr.org/english/law/protocol1.htm
http://www.ohchr.org/english/law/protocol2.htm

Wait, there is something else called the Geneva Protocol,
which the US did sign

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Protocol

but which again is about chemical weapons, not incendiaries
like wp.

About the only thing accurate in the article is that the
press in the US sucks the dog. Meanwhile, if this is
really from the UK Independent, why is on the clearinghouse
site with only the author credited?

So backing up, there's very little substance in any of
the claims made at

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10907.htm

Now let's watch the video

http://videos.informationclearinghouse.info/fallujah_ING.wmv

Yup, war really sucks, especially when you're trying to take
over a country with an armed citizenry. Big news there.
Since I'm not a physician, I couldn't say whether the burns
shown are from wp or napalm or conventional rocket launchers
or from indcidental fire.

The best thing for me was the interviews with marines,
though one incorrectly calls wp a chemical weapon.

Ok, there is footage that looks like incendiaries being
fired down on the city. That sucks.

Ok, there is also more quotage from Mr Ingram in the video.
I can't really read it, but it sounds like MK77s were
probably deployed. But it's not clear who "lied" to Ingram,
or if he wasn't full of it himself.

Now the lady claims the US admitted to using them from
the beginning. Sounds more like Britain was in denial.

The narator claims the US signed a UN Convention banning
napalm. I wonder which Convention that is? ... Whoa,
now he asks "Why didn't the US ever sign the Convention
abolishing these weapons?" wtf?

I did appreciate the woman's last remarks about exposing
Bush. The wacky thing is I can't fathom how he could be
any more exposed. If it wasn't obvious that the WMDs
thing was BS from the beginning (it certainly was to me),
it is now. And 50% of people still vote for the wanker.

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

> > More info on White Phosphorus:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_incendiary
>
> BTW, note this section of the Wikipedia entry:
>
> >> Arms control status
> >>
> >> Use of white phosphorus is not specifically banned
> >> by any treaty, however the 1980 Convention on
> >> Conventional Weapons (Protocol III) prohibits the
> >> use of incendiary weapons against civilian populations
> >> or by air attack against military forces that are
> >> located within concentrations of civilians. The
> >> United States is among the nations that have not
> >> signed this protocol.
>
> That "1980 Convention" is the *Geneva Convention*.

No, it's adifferent convention. The last first
adoption or revision of the four Geneva Conventions was
in 1949.

> >> The United States is widely reported to have dropped
> >> white phosphorus in the November, 2004 assault on
> >> Fallujah, Iraq, although the US government claims that
> >> it was used only for illumination and that it was not
> >> used against civilians. The government of Italy
> >> [ http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7000928347 ]
> >> claims that the United States used incendiary white
> >> phosphorus against civilians in Iraq.
>
> And the government of Italy is right, and the government
> of the United States lied, yet again.

Probably, but it sounds like you may have some evidence
that I don't.

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

🔗ambassadorbob <peteysan@...>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗ambassadorbob <peteysan@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@c...> wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
> > Of course i have to agree with you.
> >
> > But it's too late now, Jon. American domination of the world
> > is over now, and we Americans better just get used to the
> > fact that someone else is going to take over as we become
> > a "third world" country.
>
> Um, that isn't at all what I was talking about. I don't want to be a
> superpower. I just want us to (collectively) be respected once more
as
> a decent and just society, not reviled in most corners of the planet.
>
> Jon
>

Yo Jon,

I saw four lone democrats 'staying after school' on CSPAN just
recently, talking about investment and infrastructure, health care and
education, and I was VERY encouraged.

This young black rep from Fla. was particularly impressive. I want
HIM for prez.

Cheers,

Pete

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

backing up-As far as war though , i don't see how it can command respect at all. if you kill , you kill. how you do it is not going to win anyone over.
just about all methods involve innocent bystanders.

i guess those that cause longer and more severe pain of those injured might be worse.
My mother told me that her father , who was exposed to mustard gas during W.W.I head would swell up once a year for the rest of his life and he would be in extreme agony.
this is going a bit far, depleted uranium is in this category too.

my military expert who i forwarded this too says that white phosphorus is your standard smoke screen substance which you can't always keep off those too close. i say we just surround them with cruise ships or sail them up the Tigris and Euphrates
ambassadorbob wrote:

>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@c...> wrote:
> >
>>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
>> >>
>>>Of course i have to agree with you.
>>>
>>>But it's too late now, Jon. American domination of the world
>>>is over now, and we Americans better just get used to the
>>>fact that someone else is going to take over as we become
>>>a "third world" country.
>>> >>>
>>Um, that isn't at all what I was talking about. I don't want to be a
>>superpower. I just want us to (collectively) be respected once more >> >>
>as
> >
>>a decent and just society, not reviled in most corners of the planet.
>>
>>Jon
>>
>> >>
>
>Yo Jon,
>
>I saw four lone democrats 'staying after school' on CSPAN just >recently, talking about investment and infrastructure, health care and >education, and I was VERY encouraged.
>
>This young black rep from Fla. was particularly impressive. I want >HIM for prez.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Pete
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

> White phosphorous is not a chemical weapon? Who thought that up?
> Oh, wait, it's a conventional weapon, because all it does is burn.
> So we carefully categorize our murderousness to make one seem a
> lesser evil?

No, the journalists are using the term "chemical weapons" to
make it sound 'worse' or more sensational in some way. If burning
is just as bad as poisoning, then the journalists are the guilty
party. The term "chemical weapon" goes back to mustard gas.
The point of the distinction is dozens of nations have agreed
not to use poison in war. Presumably a treaty banning fire in
war would be less successful. The documentary also says, 'isn't
it ironic, we went in to find WMDs and wound up using them
ourselves'. But firebombs are *not* WMDs.

> Having found the most hideously painful way to burn people up,
> we better call it "defense". Otherwise (?) it's utterly
> inedefensible, isn't it?

I think it's an impossible leap to call the Iraq initiative
defense. I'm certainly not defending the use of violence.
Just pointing out garbage journalism.

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

> backing up-As far as war though, i don't see how it can command
> respect at all.

The great generals of Classical Asia got respect... I guess it's
like politics. I respect Bill Clinton even though I loathe
politics.

> just about all methods involve innocent bystanders.

If you're fending off an invasion I don't think this is true,
since you'll only be killing paid/trained/willing soldiers.
For example, there have been few American civilian casualties
in Iraq!

> My mother told me that her father , who was exposed to mustard
> gas during W.W.I head would swell up once a year for the rest
> of his life and he would be in extreme agony.
> this is going a bit far,

Agree. That's the thing about poison. It's too easy.

It's interesting. Mating often involve highly-ritualized
fights in the animal kingdom (to say nothing of the human
sphere!). They're still competing, but the killing has
been deemed too wasteful. The British followed very
sophisticated rules, which probably avoided civilian
casualties but which cost them the war to American
guerrillas. Boxing and Capoeira are examples of ritualized
fighting that have been bred tame. Seems like a good thing.
But then, there's an old episode of Star Trek where this
civilization has a computer simulating a war. The bell
rings and you get gassed. They argue it saves a lot of
lives and trouble. But Kirk says something particularly
good as I recall.

> my military expert who i forwarded this too says that
> white phosphorus is your standard smoke screen substance
> which you can't always keep off those too close.

That's right. And it's also not very effective as an
incendiary -- napalm is much more so.

-Carl

🔗monz <monz@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "ambassadorbob" <peteysan@s...> wrote:

> The real big news isn't news at all. We like killing.
> We pay for it extravagantly. We make the most glorious
> machines to do it. And then we make movies and TV shows
> to glorify our glorious glory.
>
> White phosphorous is not a chemical weapon? Who thought
> that up? Oh, wait, it's a conventional weapon, because
> all it does is burn. So we carefully categorize our
> murderousness to make one seem a lesser evil?
>
> Having found the most hideously painful way to burn
> people up, we better call it "defense". Otherwise (?)
> it's utterly inedefensible, isn't it?

The whole point about the white phosphorus story is that
the US government claims that it is only being used as
a signalling device, and that's a bald-faced lie.

The video footage and the comments from the soldiers
who explained the orders that were given to them,
both make it clear that it is being used as a weapon
-- and not only on Iraqi insurgents, but just dropped
indiscriminately on civilians.

And of course white phosphorus is a chemical weapon.
Being called "MK-77 Mod 5" this time around, it is
processed as a metal cannister filled with kerosene-based
jet-fuel and polystyrene, which forms a sticky, flammable
gel. The gel seeps under clothing and burns the skin of
its victims. The current also contains benzene as an
oxidizing agent, making it even harder to extinguish.

http://www.casi.org.uk/analysis/2004/msg00585.html

To Carl: please explain -- what about this is neither
chemical nor weapon?

-monz

🔗monz <monz@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@c...> wrote:
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
> > Of course i have to agree with you.
> >
> > But it's too late now, Jon. American domination of the world
> > is over now, and we Americans better just get used to the
> > fact that someone else is going to take over as we become
> > a "third world" country.
>
> Um, that isn't at all what I was talking about. I don't want
> to be a superpower. I just want us to (collectively) be
> respected once more as a decent and just society, not reviled
> in most corners of the planet.

I understood that, but it's good anyway that you clarified.

My point is that i have strong doubts that America will ever
again be respected as a "society", because the way things
are going now the whole country is crumbling.

I don't necessarily posit that as a bad thing. As i've
written here before, i see humanity inevitably evolving
towards a world-wide society, and each of us petty states
and petty individuals are going to have to renounce some
of our freedoms in order for each piece to find its place
in the puzzle.

I just don't see America as a country or a society ever
recovering from what the Bush administration has done --
they've simply gone too far, and as i look into my crystal
ball i don't see any way that *all* of it can be undone.

For one thing, there is no money left, and there's no
production ocurring in America itself anymore to earn
any more money. And that's just *one* thing.

-monz

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

well bub . its all dem regulatoons that gut us down wayre ya kant aford to build nu besness heere unless ya wanta bee tax to deeth! and nobuddy want does manufraudurers neer dem ether cause of traffic and tiny noisy thar machange make damn all. or some dman bards thats not gonna make it anyway. denm moooney for inspectours after inspectours. look what them did with them windmalls. had to slow it whey doown. give mwe a brake
nut in my environs says dem doogoodars!!!!!!!!
thay choked it and pooshed out to thosose thard wurld durs!!
thay want like it thar wors, way off where they can pre tend it ain't hoppening

monz wrote:

>
>ne.
>
>For one thing, there is no money left, and there's no
>production ocurring in America itself anymore to earn >any more money. And that's just *one* thing.
>
> >
--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

yep we were a guessin your a leaner that a way. bro

Jon Szanto wrote:

>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> >
>>backing up-As far as war though , i don't see how it can command
>> >>
>respect > >
>>at all. if you kill , you kill.
>> >>
>
>If my comment about respect was misinterpreted, I'll just state for
>the record that part of becoming a society worthy of respect would
>indeed include a cessation of the warkill mentality, as well as its
>reality. I guess I thought that would be assumed, but there it is.
>
>Jon
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

nax thang youd kno thay bein droopin thas un us to kil dem med flu ur bard flew

monz wrote:

>--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "ambassadorbob" <peteysan@s...> wrote:
>
>
> >
>>The real big news isn't news at all. We like killing. >>We pay for it extravagantly. We make the most glorious
>>machines to do it. And then we make movies and TV shows
>>to glorify our glorious glory.
>>
>>White phosphorous is not a chemical weapon? Who thought
>>that up? Oh, wait, it's a conventional weapon, because
>>all it does is burn. So we carefully categorize our
>>murderousness to make one seem a lesser evil? >>
>>Having found the most hideously painful way to burn
>>people up, we better call it "defense". Otherwise (?)
>>it's utterly inedefensible, isn't it?
>> >>
>
>
>The whole point about the white phosphorus story is that
>the US government claims that it is only being used as
>a signalling device, and that's a bald-faced lie.
>
>The video footage and the comments from the soldiers >who explained the orders that were given to them, >both make it clear that it is being used as a weapon
>-- and not only on Iraqi insurgents, but just dropped
>indiscriminately on civilians.
>
>
>And of course white phosphorus is a chemical weapon. >Being called "MK-77 Mod 5" this time around, it is >processed as a metal cannister filled with kerosene-based
>jet-fuel and polystyrene, which forms a sticky, flammable >gel. The gel seeps under clothing and burns the skin of
>its victims. The current also contains benzene as an
>oxidizing agent, making it even harder to extinguish.
>
>http://www.casi.org.uk/analysis/2004/msg00585.html
>
>To Carl: please explain -- what about this is neither >chemical nor weapon?
>
>
>
>-monz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
>To post to the list, send to
>metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
>You don't have to be a member to post.
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

> The whole point about the white phosphorus story is that
> the US government claims that it is only being used as
> a signalling device, and that's a bald-faced lie.
>
> The video footage and the comments from the soldiers
> who explained the orders that were given to them,
> both make it clear that it is being used as a weapon
> -- and not only on Iraqi insurgents, but just dropped
> indiscriminately on civilians.

That's not clear. The soldiers said they heard orders
to deploy it over the radio, but not *how* it was
being deployed. Even when used for illumination, some
will fall to the ground and hurt people. But it's nowhere
near as bad as MK77s. The soldiers descriptions of
injury did seem to support weapons use, but it's hard to
tell.

The footage that the narator claims is the smoking gun
does look like an incendiary attack. But if this were
the case, one wouldn't hide it in a 30min documentary.
One would show the footage, and then show interviews
with three munitions experts saying what it is. Really,
I doubt any of us are qualified to say what that is.

> And of course white phosphorus is a chemical weapon.

Nope.

> Being called "MK-77 Mod 5" this time around, it is
> processed as a metal cannister filled with kerosene-based
> jet-fuel and polystyrene, which forms a sticky, flammable
> gel.

No no no. White phosphorus is a form of the element
phosphorus. Gas-polystyrene gel is considered napalm
in slang, and is as old as the hills. I made some when
I was in middle school.

> The gel seeps under clothing and burns the skin of
> its victims.

No, the gel bursts into flames and burns everything
completely. White phosphorus also burns anything when
enough friction and/or heat is applied. But it seems
semi-likely that the wp dust could get under clothing
without burning it, and start burning skin.

> http://www.casi.org.uk/analysis/2004/msg00585.html
>
> To Carl: please explain -- what about this is neither
> chemical nor weapon?

This looks like a pretty accurate article. I suggest
you read it.

White phosphorus is the optimal smoke screen according
to Wikipedia (and Kraig's friend). Some fallout will
burn people, but that's not its primary purpose when
used for smoke. MK77s are much better for burning
people. But perhaps some general thought he couldn't
get away with using MK77s on a city and ordered a lot
of white phosphorus to be used, with the intention of
exploiting its weapons effect. I wouldn't doubt that.

"Chemical weapons" are defined, in every treaty and
everywhere I've ever seen outside of this thread, as
poisons. Napalm and white phosphorus are burning
agents, not potent poisons. They're perhaps more
horrific than carpet bombing a city, but I wouldn't
choose either.

-Carl

🔗ambassadorbob <peteysan@...>

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

On Wednesday 09 November 2005 6:31 pm, monz wrote:

> I just don't see America as a country or a society ever
> recovering from what the Bush administration has done --
> they've simply gone too far, and as i look into my crystal
> ball i don't see any way that *all* of it can be undone.
>
> For one thing, there is no money left, and there's no
> production ocurring in America itself anymore to earn
> any more money. And that's just *one* thing.
>

Monz,

Look for the link I posted about the pew survey on anti-americanism.

Things are bad, but not as bad as they might seem. The conclusion is that
Anti-Americanism is at an all-time high, yet paradoxically, much of the world
holds a great fondness for America's values and Americans. So, there is a
sophisticated separation in perception from our government and foreign policy
and our people.

-Aaron.