Re: [MMM] Digest Number 1155 Response to Jon Szanto re. Logic 7 on OSX

Hi Jon;

> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 09:04:05 -0800
> From: "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@...>
> Subject: Re: Justin White asked about microtuning using Logic - here > is the lowdown.
>
> Charles,
>
> Two statements from you:
>
> {you wrote...}
>> If you are wanting to produce professional/commercial microtonal >> music,
>> Logic is certainly the best current way to do it, from my experience
>
> ...and...
>
>> The limitation is that you can only use a max of 12 notes per octave >> at
>> any one time via the tuning settings for your virtual instruments and
>> pitch correction etc. The workaround is to bounce to audio for one >> tuning
>> assignment, change
>> the tuning settings, bounce other tracks for second/third/etc tuning
>> assignments, then mix the various audio tracks.
>
> Explain how this is better than a midi/audio sequencing/recording > program
> that can use any of the at least 1/2 dozen software instruments that > allow
> complete, >12-notes-per-octave microtuning. All without bouncing.

No explanation is required, as I am making no exotic claims here, just reporting my experiences.

>
> I understand that this may be the platform that you are invested in, > but
> Sonar + any of a number of soft insts completely fills the bill, > without
> any of the workarounds and limitations you mention.

Tell us more: please particularly, with reference to microtuning, with different DAW's: (Sonar, Reason, Edirol ?? .......) and platforms: (M$, Linux, OSX ?? ...................)

I wish to avoid the old M$ versus *nix, battle, as I know which side I am on;

but someone out in microtunland might still be interested in using JI or M$. ;-)

> Does Logic not have the
> ability to use VST instruments?

Logic Pro 7 can use most VST instruments, but you have to convert them for use within Logic to AU format plug-ins;

There's a program called VSTAuConfigure by Fxansion to do this,

http://www.fxpansion.com/

and the latest version seems to work for the VST's that I have experimented with.

They are AU plug-ins for most of the VST plug-in functions, (all that I have recently needed are included in Logic Pro 7); although I have converted many VST to experiment with them.
Many other programs are now also available in OSX e.g. Melodyne, Cameleon, and others.
There are a few other interesting AU plug-in virtual synths and percussion programs already supplied in Logic Pro 7. including Sculpture, and Ultrabeat.

>
> From: "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@...>
> Subject: Important addendum - Re: Justin White...
>
> Charles,
>
> Ah, just to be perfectly clear, I *realize* you were responding to > Justin
> WRT Logic; assuming that is a platform he already has or has access > to, I'm
> sure your information will be helpful to him. I was mainly replying to > the
> concept of what the "best current way" to make microtonal might be. And
> there are probably a few "best" ways!
>
That may be true, yet beyond my current experience, which is why I put this disclaimer in my first paragraph.

>> " from my experience."

It would be great to read other people's recent experience on other platforms.

This technology is moving so fast that it is no longer practical for me and many others to keep constant track of developments.

I wonder how Sonar + others gets around the problem of wanting to use say (thinking in meantone terms, and playing a 12tET midi file) G# in Bar 4, and Ab in Bar 5.

Can a different tunings be used and sounded in each track simultaneously?

This seems to be the obvious way to do it, although yet to be available in Logic Pro 7.

Charles Lucy - lucy@...
------------ Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -------
for information on LucyTuning go to: http://www.lucytune.com
for LucyTuned Lullabies go to http://www.lullabies.co.uk
Buy/download/CD from: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/lucytuned2

Hi Charles,

{you wrote...}
>No explanation is required, as I am making no exotic claims here, just >reporting my experiences.

Ah, only the best current way. I didn't automatically read into it "the way that is working best for me". As you say later, the options are flying fast and furious these days, hard to keep up.

>Tell us more: please particularly, with reference to microtuning, with >different DAW's: (Sonar, Reason, Edirol ?? .......) and platforms: (M$, >Linux, OSX ?? ...................)

Hey, I can only report how it is going for me: my main recording/midi platform is Sonar 4.0.2 with an LX6 Pro audio/midi interface; additional audio programs: Sound Forge 7.0 with iZotope Ozone mastering plugin, misc other audio tools; additional midi programs: well, I have fun sometimes with KeyKit. Software includes BigTick Rhino 2.0, Virsyn Tera 2.0, LinPlug CronoX 2.0, rgc:audio z3ta+ (all of these completely tuneable via .scl or .tun files). I have been trying VSampler3, but their microtuning support isn't working correctly, and they don't seem like a real solid developer - CronoX3 will be out soon and looks to be a monster combination of sampling and synthesis.

I know, what a bunch of gear-speak. But, hey, they all work, and solidly. One of the interesting things is that right now it seems like a good number of the micro-capable soft instruments also happen to be either popular with a certain crowd or have caught the ear of good sound designers, because there are a large number of free or low-cost libraries of patches to add on.

>but someone out in microtunland might still be interested in using JI or >M$. ;-)

Yeah, I don't care *what* platform they use, as long as it does what they need to facilitate making new music.

>They are AU plug-ins for most of the VST plug-in functions, (all that I >have recently needed are included in Logic Pro 7); although I have >converted many VST to experiment with them.Many other programs are now >also available in OSX e.g. Melodyne, Cameleon, and others. There are a few >other interesting AU plug-in virtual synths and percussion programs >already supplied in Logic Pro 7. including
>Sculpture, and Ultrabeat.

I've also tried to only report here on the ones that can be tuned completely, as opposed to those that need tuning with pitch bends; if nothing else, supplying just *how* an instrument fits into the microtonal usage helps clarify the issue for people investigating or just starting out.

As enamored as I am with the Mac OS (and I've never owned one), it is unfortunate that the current bulk of development in VST instruments skews to PC. Of the one's I use, the LinPlug instruments are available as native AU instruments.

>It would be great to read other people's recent experience on other platforms.

I've given mine above, and I believe Aaron Johnson has detailed (at least partially) his work in Linux. I one time pushed to have a page where each person submitted their current studio/DAW/whatever setup; unfortunately, contributions were essentially nil.

>This technology is moving so fast that it is no longer practical for me >and many others to keep constant track of developments.

Yes.

>I wonder how Sonar + others gets around the problem of wanting to use say >(thinking in meantone terms, and playing a 12tET midi file) G# in Bar 4, >and Ab in Bar 5. Can a different tunings be used and sounded in each track >simultaneously?

To the last question, yes. Each synth can carry it's own tuning, so you can have multiple, simultaneous tuning schemes at work. We need to remember, on the former, that Sonar (and I imagine all the other apps similar) are still working under the 12tet paradigm, so as far as notation and 'thinking' in meantone terms, one would have to do that conceptually (by keyboard layouts or simply knowing in your head what keys generate which pitches).

>This seems to be the obvious way to do it, although yet to be available in >Logic Pro 7.

That's too bad. If nothing else, it is an interesting place to experiment, when you can set up two or more tracks with differing tunings and see how they can co-exist.

Cheers,
Jon

hi Charles,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy <makemicro@l...>
wrote:

> I wonder how Sonar + others gets around the problem of
> wanting to use say (thinking in meantone terms, and playing
> a 12tET midi file) G# in Bar 4, and Ab in Bar 5.
>
> Can a different tunings be used and sounded in each track
> simultaneously?
>
> This seems to be the obvious way to do it, although yet
> to be available in Logic Pro 7.

a question like this came up on the tuning list recently,
and i'll repeat here basically what i wrote there ...

our Tonalsoft Musica (release 1.0 scheduled for this summer)
does not have any default tuning, and requires the user
to set up tunings before composing anything.

it's no problem to set up a meantone which contains both
G# and Ab ... it can be a closed EDO meantone like 19, 31,
or 55, or it can be open-ended like 1/4-comma or LucyTuning.
the lattices of the EDOs are toruses, and the others are
helixes.

you can see some screenshots of helical lattices in the
Encyclopedia "meantone" entry, about 3/4 of the way down
the page:

http://tonalsoft.com/enc/meantone.htm#helix

-monz

I have used logic , at least on my friend machine to run a sampler that could take any number of pitches we wanted. i keep hoping to do more with my copy here, but time and more immediate musical demands usually keep this on the back burner. It was actually quite easy to dump sample of one of my instruments in without much trouble. It is though even easier to go in the other room and pick up some mallets and just play what i want to hear. If you know how. the learning curve is very hard but do plan to continue.

monz wrote:

>hi Charles,
>
>
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy <makemicro@l...> >wrote:
> > >
>>I wonder how Sonar + others gets around the problem of
>>wanting to use say (thinking in meantone terms, and playing
>>a 12tET midi file) G# in Bar 4, and Ab in Bar 5.
>>
>>Can a different tunings be used and sounded in each track >>simultaneously?
>>
>>This seems to be the obvious way to do it, although yet
>>to be available in Logic Pro 7.
>> >>
>
>
>
>a question like this came up on the tuning list recently,
>and i'll repeat here basically what i wrote there ...
>
>our Tonalsoft Musica (release 1.0 scheduled for this summer)
>does not have any default tuning, and requires the user
>to set up tunings before composing anything.
>
>it's no problem to set up a meantone which contains both
>G# and Ab ... it can be a closed EDO meantone like 19, 31,
>or 55, or it can be open-ended like 1/4-comma or LucyTuning.
>the lattices of the EDOs are toruses, and the others are
>helixes. >
>you can see some screenshots of helical lattices in the
>Encyclopedia "meantone" entry, about 3/4 of the way down
>the page:
>
>http://tonalsoft.com/enc/meantone.htm#helix
>
>
>
>-monz
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> >Yahoo! Groups Links
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--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
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