Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Irony on MMM

> Since this joint is supposed to be about making (and, therefore,
sharing in
> some sense) music, it is looking increasingly ironic that the
thread I
> started, having posted a piece, yielded:
>
> - a couple of comments about the music
> - dozens of posts about the philosophy, technology, and efficacy of
lossy
> compression formats.

Yeah...maybe it's just me, but it seems like the longest threads in
this forum have very little to do with the actual making of
microtonal music. I mean, the whole velocity thing, and now this
debate about vorbis.... I'll grant that George and I (among others)
took up a lot of time debating various keyboard designs, but at least
that is relevant to the group's focus (in that designing microtonal
instruments relates directly to making microtonal music).

I'm not big on censorship, but sometimes I think this group could
benefit from some moderation, if for no other reason than to keep the
discussion "on topic".

-Igs

🔗daniel_anthony_stearns <daniel_anthony_stearns@...>

hi Jon...man,some things never change! But in any event, I will
eventually hear yours and the the other oggs I missed at the
library,so my opinion is worry mot..whatever the format or means, MMM
and do your best at it and everything else will work its way out

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"
<JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> Since this joint is supposed to be about making (and, therefore,
sharing in
> some sense) music, it is looking increasingly ironic that the
thread I
> started, having posted a piece, yielded:
>
> - a couple of comments about the music
> - dozens of posts about the philosophy, technology, and efficacy of
lossy
> compression formats.
>
> Jon

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

In defense of the way post go. It is rather difficult to have lengthy post on whether you like or dislike a piece. or what you get out of it. It takes very little to offend others in such matters and more often than not i am sure no one on this list wants to do that.
I will say though that i think this list has a steady and what seems to me a substantial outpour of music. often quicker than i can digest. in a meaningful way. These side comments gives one an idea of what each person is like in a way that when they do comment on music, you have a good idea where it is coming from.
the ogg mp3 question though i think we covered before.
Ogg sounds better to my ear~!

daniel_anthony_stearns wrote:

>hi Jon...man,some things never change! But in any event, I will >eventually hear yours and the the other oggs I missed at the >library,so my opinion is worry mot..whatever the format or means, MMM >and do your best at it and everything else will work its way out
>
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto" ><JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> >
>>Since this joint is supposed to be about making (and, therefore, >> >>
>sharing in > >
>>some sense) music, it is looking increasingly ironic that the >> >>
>thread I > >
>>started, having posted a piece, yielded:
>>
>>- a couple of comments about the music
>>- dozens of posts about the philosophy, technology, and efficacy of >> >>
>lossy > >
>>compression formats.
>>
>>Jon
>> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@...>

I agree with Kraig. A community of musicians has come together because of a common interest in alternative tunings, but this is often a least common denominator, if you will. There is serious distance within the community with regard to background/style/genre/aesthetics etc. and I think that getting into those issues would only distract from the concrete matters at hand.

On the old tuning list, I found myself in extended off-list arguments about whether or not Alvin Lucier or La Monte Young (both teachers of mine) really composed "music", and a particularly ugly discussion about the role (essential) of African Americans in the development of Barbershop Quartet singing. Having learned my lesson, on this list, I have purposely limited my posted examples to pieces that have some immediate surface relationship to some non-controversial traditional music.

Writing about music is always going to be problematic (this is "Seeger's dilemma: why do we write about music instead of music-ing about music?"). Pop and Jazz critics usually do it by imbedding the work to which they are listening into a network of other works with which they perceive relationships (I find that this kind of criticism is often little more than showing off your record collection -- ultimately just an "I'll show you mine..." contest, but one with a real commercial edge). Generally there is little if any discussion of technical matters. One might mention "three chords" or "twelve bars", but no one really goes further into the voice leading (well, almost no one: http://www.societymusictheory.org/mto/issues/mto.04.10.4/mto.04.10.4.w_everett_frames.html ). I would really love to read an extended article on drumset playing, a particular mystery to me, but that's probably too much to hope for. "Classical" criticism does have an academic sub-genre which does get into technical matters, but writers who are gifted in delivering these to a general public are few and far between (Tovey, Thomson, Johnson). And when some one goes deep into analysis, run for cover! The probability of being assaulted for the sin of taking music seriously is extremely high.

But thankfully there are plenty of concrete topics to discuss within our common territory -- the toys (machines, programs) we use to make music, and the techniques that make those toys, at least potentially, musical (whatever that may mean!).

By the way -- anyone else got a 13tet ringtone in fifth species CP on their mobile phone? (Sorry, just had to show off!)

DJW

Kraig Grady wrote:

> In defense of the way post go. It is rather difficult to have lengthy
> post on whether you like or dislike a piece. or what you get out of it.
> It takes very little to offend others in such matters and more often
> than not i am sure no one on this list wants to do that.
> I will say though that i think this list has a steady and what seems to
> me a substantial outpour of music. often quicker than i can digest. in a
> meaningful way. These side comments gives one an idea of what each
> person is like in a way that when they do comment on music, you have a
> good idea where it is coming from.
> the ogg mp3 question though i think we covered before.
> Ogg sounds better to my ear~!

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@...>

On Saturday 19 February 2005 05:50 pm, Jonathan M. Szanto wrote:
> Since this joint is supposed to be about making (and, therefore, sharing in
> some sense) music, it is looking increasingly ironic that the thread I
> started, having posted a piece, yielded:
>
> - a couple of comments about the music
> - dozens of posts about the philosophy, technology, and efficacy of lossy
> compression formats.

You are right, and I agree with Kraig's post as well--all his points...anyway,
for my part I'm done with the Ogg/mp3 debate, I've said what I had to, I'll
let it rest; I think maybe what we should do is bring this kind of stuff to
metatuning in the future.

Having said that let me reiterate to you Jon, that I always dig your work when
you post, and I know you don't like ETs but your writing in 22 was delicious.
I'd love to hear some of your 12-writing, if you have any!!!...) I think you
mentioned that you do that) *<grin>*

Other than that, I want to echo again Kraig's sentiment that I think there has
been a significant body of musical work done here in 2005 already (as well as
the past year) in terms of produced examples of music, all interesting, all
in unique styles. MMM is alive and well, in spite of these obsessive side
threads! I feel constantly inspired by what my peers are doing to explore
things I haven't thought of exploring before, and I want to thank all of you
for that.

Cheers,

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

🔗monz <monz@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Pete McRae <petesfriedclams@...>

I notice no one seems to have mentioned the playback situation Mr. Stearns confronted. I didn't know what the hell to do, Windows media wouldn't play 'em, and I had deleted all the other little 'competitors' for a time.

So, I went over to good ol' (?) Winamp and reinstalled the freebie. Voila, an ogg player...huh? How many [guitar players] does it take to screw in a light bulb?

(Personally, I actually kind of like all crap mp3's introduce, just for a sort of lo-fi giggle, you might say...)

monz <monz@...> wrote:

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady
wrote:

> the ogg mp3 question though i think we covered before.
> Ogg sounds better to my ear~!

having read thru the whole ogg-vs-mp3 debate, i have to
say the same: i never paid much attention to comparing
filesizes, bit-rates, etc. ... but in *every* case where
i've had the chance to listen to a side-by-side comparison
of the same piece in mp3 and ogg, the ogg *sounded* better.

and after all, for a musician, that's the bottom line.

-monz

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Jacob <jbarton@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@a...> wrote:>
> But thankfully there are plenty of concrete topics to discuss within our
> common territory -- the toys (machines, programs) we use to make music,
> and the techniques that make those toys, at least potentially, musical
> (whatever that may mean!).
>
> By the way -- anyone else got a 13tet ringtone in fifth species CP on
> their mobile phone? (Sorry, just had to show off!)
>
> DJW

Seriously? Wow, I was just thinking this week about ringtones as a way to spread
microtonality. Though I don't own a cell phone myself. Can anyone tell me anything
about the "industry," as in how many play MIDIs and with what sort of pitch bend
accuracy? And what the routes are to get a ringtone out there...I don't even know what
questions I'd need to ask, let alone who I'd need to ask them to. But could you at least
desribe what you had to do in order to be able to attack unsuspecting strangers with
13tet?

🔗Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@...>

Any current version of Windows media player handles OGG without any additional downloads.

DJW

Pete McRae wrote:

> I notice no one seems to have mentioned the playback situation Mr. > Stearns confronted. I didn't know what the hell to do, Windows media > wouldn't play 'em, and I had deleted all the other little > 'competitors' for a time.
>
> So, I went over to good ol' (?) Winamp and reinstalled the freebie. > Voila, an ogg player...huh? How many [guitar players] does it take to > screw in a light bulb?
>
> (Personally, I actually kind of like all crap mp3's introduce, just > for a sort of lo-fi giggle, you might say...)
>
> monz <monz@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady
> wrote:
>
> > the ogg mp3 question though i think we covered before.
> > Ogg sounds better to my ear~!
>
>
> having read thru the whole ogg-vs-mp3 debate, i have to
> say the same: i never paid much attention to comparing
> filesizes, bit-rates, etc. ... but in *every* case where
> i've had the chance to listen to a side-by-side comparison
> of the same piece in mp3 and ogg, the ogg *sounded* better.
>
> and after all, for a musician, that's the bottom line.
>
>
> -monz
>
>

🔗Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@...>

Jacob wrote:

>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@a...> wrote:>
> > But thankfully there are plenty of concrete topics to discuss within > our
> > common territory -- the toys (machines, programs) we use to make music,
> > and the techniques that make those toys, at least potentially, musical
> > (whatever that may mean!).
> >
> > By the way -- anyone else got a 13tet ringtone in fifth species CP on
> > their mobile phone? (Sorry, just had to show off!)
> >
> > DJW
>
> Seriously? Wow, I was just thinking this week about ringtones as a way > to spread
> microtonality. Though I don't own a cell phone myself. Can anyone > tell me anything
> about the "industry," as in how many play MIDIs and with what sort of > pitch bend
> accuracy? And what the routes are to get a ringtone out there...I > don't even know what
> questions I'd need to ask, let alone who I'd need to ask them to. But > could you at least
> desribe what you had to do in order to be able to attack unsuspecting > strangers with
> 13tet?
>
As far as I can tell, none of the midi implementation will do pitch bends, but the latest generation of phones all do sound files -- WAVs, (dreaded) MP3s, and some unique cell phone formats. Unfortunately, there seem to be serious variations in details from one phone to the next, and sometimes getting the details is a bit of trick, so a bit of research is in order. My Siemens phone accepted a ADPCM 8.000 kHz mono 4 bit/sec format file, converted using the built-in Windows Sound recorder.

DJW

🔗Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@...>

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>> >and a particularly ugly discussion about
>> >the role (essential) of African Americans in the development of
>> >Barbershop Quartet singing.
>>
>> Weird... are you referring to a discussion we had in 1999?
>> I remember that as a very positive and constructive discussion.
>>
>> -Carl
>>
>The controversy was with someone else offline. You and I had a fine
>discussion. By the way, you might enjoy reading Gage Averill's book on
>Barbershop "Four Parts, No Waiting"; it's really good to learn that
>Barbershop officialdom has recently become much more open and honest
>about the genre's diverse origins and history.

Cool, and thanks for the reference. I'm not active in the Society
any more, but I still find it a very interesting topic.

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>> >for my part I'm done with the Ogg/mp3 debate, I've said what I had
>> >to,
>>
>> I'm still curious why you don't like Musepack.
>
>I just Googled it, and it sounds cool to me, my reservation is that I
>currently have 100MB of storage on my website, I don't want to pay for
>more, and Musepack is optimized for hi bitrate, larger files, it seems.

Your oggs are clocking in at 128Kbps, which is seldom transparent. For
just 20Kbps more, you could have transparency with MPC.

100MB isn't very much. I get 500MB for $5.48/month, purchased
annually...

http://geekhosting.com/premium_hosting.html

...not that I'm recommending geekhosting (I'm new with them).

-Carl

🔗Stevie Hryciw <codroid@...>

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@...>

On Sunday 20 February 2005 07:52 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
> >> >for my part I'm done with the Ogg/mp3 debate, I've said what I had
> >> >to,
> >>
> >> I'm still curious why you don't like Musepack.
> >
> >I just Googled it, and it sounds cool to me, my reservation is that I
> >currently have 100MB of storage on my website, I don't want to pay for
> >more, and Musepack is optimized for hi bitrate, larger files, it seems.
>
> Your oggs are clocking in at 128Kbps, which is seldom transparent. For
> just 20Kbps more, you could have transparency with MPC.

I use -q5 w/oggenc, and my stats indicate that I'm clocking anywhere from
~140 to ~192, depending on the signal (oggs have a variable bitrate by
default). They sound fine to me, and I consider -q5 a 'sweetspot' after
testing my files for a payoff between size and quality.

And thanks for the geekhosting tip, I'll look into it.

Best,
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@...>

On Sunday 20 February 2005 07:52 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:

> Your oggs are clocking in at 128Kbps, which is seldom transparent. For
> just 20Kbps more, you could have transparency with MPC.
>

Carl,

Did you see this old message, dated September 23rd, 2004, from Gene?:

/makemicromusic/topicId_7569.html#7569

I think this says enough for now for me to stay away from mpc.

Best,
--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>> >> >for my part I'm done with the Ogg/mp3 debate, I've said what I had
>> >> >to,
>> >>
>> >> I'm still curious why you don't like Musepack.
>> >
>> >I just Googled it, and it sounds cool to me, my reservation is that I
>> >currently have 100MB of storage on my website, I don't want to pay for
>> >more, and Musepack is optimized for hi bitrate, larger files, it seems.
>>
>> Your oggs are clocking in at 128Kbps, which is seldom transparent. For
>> just 20Kbps more, you could have transparency with MPC.
>
>I use -q5 w/oggenc, and my stats indicate that I'm clocking anywhere from
>~140 to ~192, depending on the signal (oggs have a variable bitrate by
>default). They sound fine to me, and I consider -q5 a 'sweetspot' after
>testing my files for a payoff between size and quality.

Oop, sorry. I actually have mostly mp3s for you for some reason.
I have three oggs -- Boogie Pie, Ut Re Mi, and Lost in Appalachia,
which are 203Kbps, 136Kbps, and 211Kbps respectively. So Musepack
will save you space for the level of quality you seem to desire,
based on this (small) sample.

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

At 06:53 AM 2/21/2005, you wrote:
>
>On Sunday 20 February 2005 07:52 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
>
>> Your oggs are clocking in at 128Kbps, which is seldom transparent. For
>> just 20Kbps more, you could have transparency with MPC.
>>
>
>Carl,
>
>Did you see this old message, dated September 23rd, 2004, from Gene?:
>
>/makemicromusic/topicId_7569.html#7569

Yes; I turned Gene on to Musepack.

>I think this says enough for now for me to stay away from mpc.

Oh? What scares you away? I thought you were all about finding
the best encoder?

-Carl

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@...>

On Monday 21 February 2005 11:32 am, Carl Lumma wrote:
> At 06:53 AM 2/21/2005, you wrote:
> >On Sunday 20 February 2005 07:52 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
> >> Your oggs are clocking in at 128Kbps, which is seldom transparent. For
> >> just 20Kbps more, you could have transparency with MPC.
> >
> >Carl,
> >
> >Did you see this old message, dated September 23rd, 2004, from Gene?:
> >
> >/makemicromusic/topicId_7569.html#7569
>
> Yes; I turned Gene on to Musepack.
>
> >I think this says enough for now for me to stay away from mpc.
>
> Oh? What scares you away? I thought you were all about finding
> the best encoder?

For one thing, I don't like the idea of a file being overwritten, like Gene
says. Another thing is that I want to do my part to give momentum to ogg
before supporting yet another new codec. It's hard enough to fight mp3
without another one coming along to divide the issue. The benefits of
switching to musepack from ogg seem to be outweighed by the costs. I know, I
know, that's the argument mp3 people use against ogg, but by my metric, going
from mp3 to ogg is a much greater distance in quality travelled, so it's
worth it. The gain of mpc over ogg seems to insignificant to take attention
away from promoting ogg, especially at the bitrates I currently consider
coding at. And, we don't need yet another codec, unless it blows ogg away by
a larger margin.

BTW, I flac-ified most of the wave-files one my hard-drive today; now my
archived audio tracks for Divide by Pi and my solo stuff take up something
like 43% of what they used to.....yes!!!!

FLAC rules!!!

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>For one thing, I don't like the idea of a file being overwritten, like
>Gene says.

I'm pretty sure that's optional.

>Another thing is that I want to do my part to give momentum to ogg
>before supporting yet another new codec. It's hard enough to fight mp3
>without another one coming along to divide the issue. The benefits of
>switching to musepack from ogg seem to be outweighed by the costs. I
>know, I know, that's the argument mp3 people use against ogg, but by
>my metric, going from mp3 to ogg is a much greater distance in quality
>travelled, so it's worth it.

I don't want to belabor this point any more, but maybe we can take
this off-list, or just think about it on our own: How can this be
quantified?

>BTW, I flac-ified most of the wave-files one my hard-drive today; now
>my archived audio tracks for Divide by Pi and my solo stuff take up
>something like 43% of what they used to.....yes!!!!
>
>FLAC rules!!!

Yeah, FLAC really is amazing.

-Carl

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@a...>
wrote:

>http://www.societymusictheory.org/mto/issues/mto.04.10.4/mto.04.10.4.
>w_everett_frames.html

Thanks Daniel. Walter Everett's book _The Beatles As Musicians_ (the
one that covers the latter half of their career -- don't know if the
one about the earlier Beatles has come out yet) is very enjoyable. I
look forward to reading this article! Is there a best forum for
discussing it with you and others once I'm done?

> ). I would really love to read an extended article on drumset
>playing, a
> particular mystery to me, but that's probably too much to hope
>for.

Hmm . . . there must be something out there. Drummers can be just as
academic and intellectual as anyone else, despite the usual
stereotypes . . . unfortunately I only play pop/rock/jazz guitar,
bass, and keyboards professionally, so I won't be of much help in the
drumming department . . . I just know what I like in drumming, and
how to blend with/respond to it, on an aural level.

You may or may not want to check out what Berklee is publishing in
the way of drum materials . . .

P.S. I await your comments on my new paper.

-Paul

🔗Igliashon Jones <igliashon@...>

> >I would really love to read an extended article on drumset
> >playing, a
> > particular mystery to me, but that's probably too much to hope
> >for.

I can illuminate a little (or a lot, off-list, if you'd like), since
in addition to most things string I also play many things percussive
(drum set included). Basically, playing a set of drums is like
playing an organ, without the melodic/harmonic aspects. It's all
about independence between body parts, ambidexterity, accuracy at
high speed, and at the highest skill levels complete 4-way polymetric
independence. A friend of mine, who happens also to be one of the
most amazing drummers I have ever laid eyes on, can play 4 meters
simultaneously (2/4 3/4 5/8 and 7/4), as well as 32nd notes with
mechanical accuracy almost up to 200 bpm. Myself, I'm rather proud
that I can do 3 simultaneous meters (4/4, 3/4, and 5/8), and lay down
some mean funk-grooves in whatever meter pleases me, but I'm not much
at high speeds.

HTH,
-Igliashon

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

Igs, Daniel,

{you wrote...}
> > >I would really love to read an extended article on drumset
> > >playing, a
> > > particular mystery to me, but that's probably too much to hope
> > >for.
>
>I can illuminate a little...

And, quite frequently, it is about placing the entire context of the music, and the musicians, into a mystery field called "the pocket". Just as Delta blues guitar is not the same as [insert name of incendiary guitar lick provider], sometimes the essence of drumset playing is about a simpler, yet powerful aesthetic.

Daniel, I've often thought that when people phrase a question like yours, I think of Peter Erskine. My colleague is going to bring a new book of his to work, and if it is how I think it will be I'll be recommending it to you. A truly gifted drumset artist, a very deep musician.

And Igs, I hope we can hear you play drums on some pieces some day! You'll give Brain and Herb and all the other great Bay area drummers some competition!!

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Igliashon Jones <igliashon@...>

Ah yes, how could I forget The Pocket? Mysterious it is indeed. No
words can describe it, nor can it be taught in any classroom. It is
mystical, supernatural, transcendental...ha! Naw, it's just The
Pocket. To know it is to feel it.

> And Igs, I hope we can hear you play drums on some pieces some day!

Yeah, that's the plan, though it'll be a while before I can set up a
space to record them. That's the downfall of being a percussionist:
you can't set up a drumset in a 3-bedroom urban apartment unless your
neighbors and roommates are veeeerrrrryyyy understanding! Though one
of these days I may venture to teach myself the tabla...

>You'll give Brain and Herb and all the other great Bay area drummers
>some competition!!

Ha! In my dreams! ;->

-igs

🔗monz <monz@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Igliashon Jones" <igliashon@s.
..> wrote:

> Ah yes, how could I forget The Pocket? Mysterious it is
> indeed. No words can describe it, nor can it be taught
> in any classroom. It is mystical, supernatural,
> transcendental...ha! Naw, it's just The Pocket.
> To know it is to feel it.

i'm happy to read this. i'm always telling my students,
over and over again, that rhythm is the most important
aspect of music. my reasoning goes like this:

if a performer plays a wrong note and keeps going, without
missing a beat, most listeners will not even notice that
a mistake was made, and those who do notice will probably
forget about it quickly.

but if a performer plays a wrong note and then messes up
the rhythm -- either because he/she tries to fix the mistake,
or simply because he/she hasn't learned to stop dwelling
on mistakes, which breaks the flow of the music -- *every*
listener in the audience, no matter how tone-deaf, will
know that something went wrong.

and then i always add that understanding rhythm is different
from understanding pitch, because it's much more something
that you feel, whereas pitch is more intellectual.

monz (who *is* giving lessons on The Pocket!)

🔗Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@...>

Jonathan M. Szanto wrote:

>And, quite frequently, it is about placing the entire context of the music, >and the musicians, into a mystery field called "the pocket". Just as Delta >blues guitar is not the same as [insert name of incendiary guitar lick >provider], sometimes the essence of drumset playing is about a simpler, yet >powerful aesthetic.
> >

Jon --

This is getting into the speechless territory; every music has its own, and that's fine. (Nathaniel Mackey has gone about as far as anyone in pursuing this -- see his _Bedouin Hornbook_). But I'm interested in taking the risk of using language to explain what's going on technically, and what I hear is mostly rather uncomplicated. What I'd like to learn about specifically are the conventions of rubato-versus-tempo, beat-within-meter hierarchies, "filling" (how much can you do without obscuring the prevailing pattern), and formal markers (turn arounds, cadences etc.). I am also interested in the question of whether the rudiments have persisted or not. (In Jr. High band, I (a trombonist) learned a basic set of rudiments while waiting for the band teacher to finish teaching them to the drummers).

>Daniel, I've often thought that when people phrase a question like yours, I >think of Peter Erskine. My colleague is going to bring a new book of his to >work, and if it is how I think it will be I'll be recommending it to you. A >truly gifted drumset artist, a very deep musician.
> >
My old colleague Royal Hartigan has also written on drumming, but his books strike me as more synthesis (new ideas for drum set taken from world musics) than analysis. Do you have any opinion about them?

DJW

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

Daniel,

{you wrote...}
>This is getting into the speechless territory; every music has its own, >and that's fine. (Nathaniel Mackey has gone about as far as anyone in >pursuing this -- see his _Bedouin Hornbook_).

I mention it *specifically* because it is a very, very big part of what most drum set music/history/pedagogy entails! Talk to any good rhythm section and this gets discussed. All of the legendary drummers have this ability, and it is completely separate from technical ability.

>But I'm interested in taking the risk of using language to explain what's >going on
>technically, and what I hear is mostly rather uncomplicated.

I'm a bit at a loss - either you aren't listening deep enough, or you haven't listened to the many great drummers (as in "drum set" or "kit") of the period from at least 1930 onward. The last thing I would say - while looking at a list of hundreds of great drummers in many styles - is that it is rather uncomplicated.

>What I'd like to learn about specifically are the conventions of >rubato-versus-tempo, beat-within-meter hierarchies, "filling" (how much >can you do without obscuring the prevailing pattern), and formal markers >(turn arounds, cadences etc.).

These are pretty varied topics, and probably would need to be filled in from a few sources (i.e. the first two are much more advance concepts, while many set books will talk about fills and song formats). In this respect, I will give you a couple of specific books after I make sure the ones that I would really suggest.

>I am also interested in the question of whether the rudiments have >persisted or not. (In Jr. High band, I (a trombonist) learned a basic set >of rudiments while waiting for the band teacher to finish teaching them to >the drummers).

Only for a very surface approach. I'll put it this way: any time I see a book that talks about how to use "rudiments" on the drum set I just laugh, because this is some kind of low-level technician that can't really play (or teach). Drumming rudiments came from military tattoos, and were easy to use for rote teaching. They functioned as technique builders, but as set developed it's own vernacular, they have become less important, while the marching tradition (of rudiments) has become extremely specific and combative, with precision field drumming being the musical equivalent of a meld of synchronized swimming and monster truck rallies. Nonetheless, the rudiments encapsulate a lot of what a person needs to do with two sticks in their hands.

>My old colleague Royal Hartigan has also written on drumming, but his >books strike me as more synthesis (new ideas for drum set taken from world >musics) than analysis. Do you have any opinion about them?

I'm sorry to say I've never heard of him or his books. Maybe a more European distribution?

Cheers,
Jon

(Daniel, I think we should take this off-list if you want to go any further...)

🔗Rich Holmes <rsholmes@...>

"monz" <monz@...> writes:

> but if a performer plays a wrong note and then messes up
> the rhythm -- either because he/she tries to fix the mistake,
> or simply because he/she hasn't learned to stop dwelling
> on mistakes, which breaks the flow of the music -- *every*
> listener in the audience, no matter how tone-deaf, will
> know that something went wrong.

And if you want to cultivate keeping the rhythm right, play for
dancing.

I've spent the past 16 years playing melodeon for a team of morris
dancers, and I can testify that if you don't learn quickly to keep the
damn rhythm going no matter what else is going to hell, you don't last
long.

- Rich Holmes

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗monz <monz@...>

hi Rich,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rich Holmes<rsholmes@m...>
wrote:

> "monz" <monz@t...> writes:
>
> > but if a performer plays a wrong note and then messes up
> > the rhythm -- either because he/she tries to fix the mistake,
> > or simply because he/she hasn't learned to stop dwelling
> > on mistakes, which breaks the flow of the music -- *every*
> > listener in the audience, no matter how tone-deaf, will
> > know that something went wrong.
>
> And if you want to cultivate keeping the rhythm right,
> play for dancing.
>
> I've spent the past 16 years playing melodeon for a team
> of morris dancers, and I can testify that if you don't
> learn quickly to keep the damn rhythm going no matter what
> else is going to hell, you don't last long.

yes, exactly right! i guess all those years i spent working in
a top-40 band really did enhance my musical skills, after all ...

-monz

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗monz <monz@...>

hi Carl,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> > yes, exactly right! i guess all those years i spent
> > working in a top-40 band really did enhance my musical
> > skills, after all ...
>
> Heya monz,
>
> What band was that?

One Night Affair. you can see pictures of two different
incarnations of the band on my Autobiography page, about
3/4 of the way down the page. we played gigs in a pretty
wide area around Philadelphia, stretching up to the Poconos
(and even once in the Catskills), sometimes New York City,
and often at the Jersey shore.

that was one of the last bands i played in ... i think
there was only one other after that, and we only did one
gig ... but it was nice because it was all original songs.

before One Night Affair (which everyone used to mistakenly
call "One Night Stand"), i played first in a heavy-metal
band called Meanstreak (the leader had prog pretensions
or intentions, and that's why he wanted a keyboard player ...
basically it was totally guitar music). this was in
south Jersey.

then my longest stint, also south Jersey, was with the
Midnight Riders, which started out as a southern-rock
biker band ... but we added a lot of new-wave stuff after
i joined, and also eventually did a whole lot of Rolling Stones
and Led Zeppelin -- it was an interesting combination.
we *really* rocked, and i miss that a lot. at the time,
it was also very cool that we always had a big following
at every gig (because our biker club followed us around),
and we always could drink as much as we wanted onstage
and never had to buy any drinks ... our fans got them for us.

that was definitely the most hard-drinking part of my life.
but i had a hell of a lot of fun, and wrote some of my best
rock tunes too. we made a 4-song EP called "Turmoil"
which got a little bit of radio play in south Jersey and
Philly back around 1984. so we were doing a lot of originals
by then, but apparently my tunes were too hard for the other
guys to grasp ... so i quit, then rejoined a while later,
then finally quit again.

i was in a prog-rock cover band called Viper for a short
time after that, then formed another prog-rock band called
Tsunami (which was a *very* cool name at the time ... not
so cool right now ...), but neither of those bands got their
act together in time to get a gig before breaking up.
Tsunami actually was very good, and it's too bad it didn't last.

after that, i moved to Philly, and after not doing any
onstage playing for a few years, i finally got into
One Night Affair. that was really different for me because
it was top-40, and i liked it for a while. but as i say
on my webpage, it finally felt too confining. by then i
was really deeply into my microtonal software ideas anyway,
and had begun collecting the notes which eventually became
my book _JustMusic_.

i got that one other band together after that, doing
all originals, and did quite a bit of freelance R&B work
(actually, by this time it was known as "urban contemporary").
but shortly after that was when all my instruments were stolen,
and then a couple of years later i started my website and
moved to San Diego, and have been too busy with that stuff
to be in a band. but i really would like to do it again.
(sigh)

-monz
(getting long-winded as he becomes nostalgic)