_Carmina_ and _To the Co-op_ (ogg files)

Hello, everyone, and with special thanks to Harold for his inspiration, I
offer some rather basic examples of "intabulating" a composition as
algorithmic MIDI and then recording with Timidity++ to ogg format.

Compared either to your artful MIDI technique, Harold, or to your
algorithms for rhythmic variation, Aaron (as in the John Bull arrangement
for 19-equal), this is a crude technique, although in one of the pieces,
_To the Co-op_, I did do a bit of adjusting in specifying my code to put
in some timely (I hope) pauses, for example.

Again, this is "performance by ASCII," so to speak: writing a Scala MIDI
sequence file, using the EXAMPLE command to produce a MIDI file in a
specified tuning, and then running Timidity++ to convert to ogg (here
using the Personal Copy 5.1 soundfont).

The first piece is suggested by a kind of Renaissance style in which a
melodic theme is taken as a basis for imitations and variations in
different voices:

<http://www.bestii.com/~mschulter/carmina01.ogg>

The second, a canon _To the Co-op_, is a kind of quick trip to the Co-op,
with a fine point of intonation in this rendition that I'll comment on in
another post after giving anyone an opportunity to remark on this or other
aspects:

<http://www.bestii.com/~mschulter/coop001.ogg>

Again, this is a kind of very simplistic "digital piano roll," but if
anyone finds it a bit of fun, it will have served its purpose.

Most appreciatively,

Margo
mschulter@...

On Tuesday 15 February 2005 09:46 pm, Margo Schulter wrote:
> Hello, everyone, and with special thanks to Harold for his inspiration, I
> offer some rather basic examples of "intabulating" a composition as
> algorithmic MIDI and then recording with Timidity++ to ogg format.
>
> Compared either to your artful MIDI technique, Harold, or to your
> algorithms for rhythmic variation, Aaron (as in the John Bull arrangement
> for 19-equal), this is a crude technique, although in one of the pieces,
> _To the Co-op_, I did do a bit of adjusting in specifying my code to put
> in some timely (I hope) pauses, for example.
>
> Again, this is "performance by ASCII," so to speak: writing a Scala MIDI
> sequence file, using the EXAMPLE command to produce a MIDI file in a
> specified tuning, and then running Timidity++ to convert to ogg (here
> using the Personal Copy 5.1 soundfont).
>
> The first piece is suggested by a kind of Renaissance style in which a
> melodic theme is taken as a basis for imitations and variations in
> different voices:
>
> <http://www.bestii.com/~mschulter/carmina01.ogg>

This was very pretty! Nice contrapuntal writing!

> The second, a canon _To the Co-op_, is a kind of quick trip to the Co-op,
> with a fine point of intonation in this rendition that I'll comment on in
> another post after giving anyone an opportunity to remark on this or other
> aspects:
>
> <http://www.bestii.com/~mschulter/coop001.ogg>
>
> Again, this is a kind of very simplistic "digital piano roll," but if
> anyone finds it a bit of fun, it will have served its purpose.

Fun piece, Margo, thanks! I'll be talking with you some more about the
rhythmic algorithm more offline....

Best,
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Margo Schulter
<mschulter@c...> wrote:
> Hello, everyone, and with special thanks to Harold for his
inspiration, I
> offer some rather basic examples ...>
> The first piece is suggested by a kind of Renaissance style in
which a
> melodic theme is taken as a basis for imitations and variations in
> different voices:
>
> <http://www.bestii.com/~mschulter/carmina01.ogg>
>
> The second, a canon _To the Co-op_, is a kind of quick trip to the
Co-op,
> with a fine point of intonation in this rendition that I'll comment
on in
> another post after giving anyone an opportunity to remark on this
or other
> aspects:
>
> <http://www.bestii.com/~mschulter/coop001.ogg>
>
> Margo

Hey Margo, these are really nice -- both the timbres and the writing!

I've been playing catch-up lately, downloading lots of music from MMM
contributors (and copying it onto a CD, along with text files
containing "program notes" drawn from postings), so haven't gotten to
hear some things until quite some time after they've been made
available.

Did you elaborate on that "fine point of intonation" in a subsequent
message, or did I miss it? I was also hoping that you would identify
the tunings you used -- it sounds as if one of them has narrow fifths
and the other wide fifths.

Best,

--George

>> <http://www.bestii.com/~mschulter/carmina01.ogg>
>> <http://www.bestii.com/~mschulter/coop001.ogg>

> Hey Margo, these are really nice -- both the timbres and the
> writing! I've been playing catch-up lately, downloading lots of
> music from MMM contributors (and copying it onto a CD, along with
> text files containing "program notes" drawn from postings), so
> haven't gotten to hear some things until quite some time after
> they've been made available.

Thank you for this encouragement, and also the inspiring example of
your music on the Scalatron. That CD of MMM pieces sounds like a
really valuable resource.

> Did you elaborate on that "fine point of intonation" in a subsequent
> message, or did I miss it? I was also hoping that you would identify
> the tunings you used -- it sounds as if one of them has narrow fifths
> and the other wide fifths.

First, you're absolutely right: _Carmina_ has narrow fifths, regular
1/4-comma meantone, while _To the Co-op_ is in Peppermint with fifths
about 2.14 cents wide.

Thank you for reminding me about that "fine point of intonation," so
that I can explain it. In the _Co-op_ piece, the major third and sixth
in the final cadence where they expand to a fifth and octave are made
wider than the regular sizes of around 416 and 912 cents -- the major
third at around 437 cents (slightly larger than a pure 9:7) and the
major sixth at a pure 12:7.

Anyway, the cadential stretching was the fine point of intonation --
and it's a pleasure to confirm that you were right about those
fifths.

Most appreciatively,

Margo
mschulter@...

At 07:45 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
>
> >> <http://www.bestii.com/~mschulter/carmina01.ogg>
> >> <http://www.bestii.com/~mschulter/coop001.ogg>

Boy oh boy, these are great! Just got a chance to listen
now. What fun!

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Margo Schulter
<mschulter@c...> wrote:
> >> <http://www.bestii.com/~mschulter/carmina01.ogg>
> >> <http://www.bestii.com/~mschulter/coop001.ogg>
>
> > Hey Margo, these are really nice ...
>
> Thank you for this encouragement, and also the inspiring example of
> your music on the Scalatron. That CD of MMM pieces sounds like a
> really valuable resource.
>
> > Did you elaborate on that "fine point of intonation" in a
subsequent
> > message, or did I miss it? I was also hoping that you would
identify
> > the tunings you used -- it sounds as if one of them has narrow
fifths
> > and the other wide fifths.
>
> First, you're absolutely right: _Carmina_ has narrow fifths, regular
> 1/4-comma meantone, while _To the Co-op_ is in Peppermint with
fifths
> about 2.14 cents wide.
>
> Thank you for reminding me about that "fine point of intonation," so
> that I can explain it. In the _Co-op_ piece, the major third and
sixth
> in the final cadence where they expand to a fifth and octave are
made
> wider than the regular sizes of around 416 and 912 cents -- the
major
> third at around 437 cents (slightly larger than a pure 9:7) and the
> major sixth at a pure 12:7.
>
> Anyway, the cadential stretching was the fine point of
intonation ...

This is a "fine" example of what Ozan Yarman calls "expressive
intonation": the occasional substitution of pitches or intervals
similar in size for the more usual members of a scale in order to
achieve a more striking melodic and/or harmonic effect.

--George

It seems that this is exactly how intonation works in the real world. Constantly being adapted to the musical expression and and structure at the time.

George D. Secor wrote:

>
> >
>
>This is a "fine" example of what Ozan Yarman calls "expressive >intonation": the occasional substitution of pitches or intervals >similar in size for the more usual members of a scale in order to >achieve a more striking melodic and/or harmonic effect.
>
>--George
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
>
> George D. Secor wrote:
> >
> >This is a "fine" example of what Ozan Yarman calls "expressive
> >intonation": the occasional substitution of pitches or intervals
> >similar in size for the more usual members of a scale in order to
> >achieve a more striking melodic and/or harmonic effect.
> >
> >--George
> >
> It seems that this is exactly how intonation works in the real
world.
> Constantly being adapted to the musical expression and and
structure at
> the time.
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

While that's quite true, the difference in the way Margo and Ozan
approach this (if I understand it correctly) is that they are able to
*notate* these fine or "expressive" differences in pitch by employing
tunings in which both "usual" and "alternative" pitches exist. This
allows them to communicate a specific *intention*, making it much
less a matter of a particular performer's intuition or interpretation.

--George

Hi George and apologize if i take off on this tread into a different direction and direct my comments more to the group as a whole . I was in no way attempting to take away from their approach. In fact it seems to me this is the actual goal. the availability of such emotional shading. But the problem is more complex for a variety of reasons.

We tend to view the romantic era as the great period of musical emotional expression, yet as Bartok pointed out, the emotions to be expressed were limited to a few and that only in the modern period were composers free to explore others that had not been touched upon. Whereas others composers saw the early 20th century as a turn away from the emotions, he saw it as a further liberation.

The problem, as i see it is that we could have a completely open array of possible choices, but more often than not , it is the actual pitch array, or we might say master scale that is responsible for the results Ivor Derrig is a good example, although not the first of the latter and the shuti system of India is a possible example of a system that combines both, self containment that allows commatic fluctuations.
Ways in which this problem could be approached :
1. The use of ambiguous intervals that performers will consciously or subconsciously modify in actual performance. This is the method of 12 ET for the most part.
2. The use of set intervals with those in-between being flexible. This can be seen pretty much in tetrachordal scales the tones in between vary.
3. Scales formed by a chain or possibly combined chains (as in Margo's case, although 2 would also apply to her approach ). This would include Chains that created 'near misses' that would function as alternative intonations of other pitches ( as mentioned in the persian-indian) scales

I put this forth for others to possibly fill in the gaps.

George D. Secor wrote:

>
> >
>
>While that's quite true, the difference in the way Margo and Ozan >approach this (if I understand it correctly) is that they are able to >*notate* these fine or "expressive" differences in pitch by employing >tunings in which both "usual" and "alternative" pitches exist. This >allows them to communicate a specific *intention*, making it much >less a matter of a particular performer's intuition or interpretation.
>
>--George
>
>
> >
--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
> We tend to view the romantic era as the great period of musical
> emotional expression, yet as Bartok pointed out, the emotions to be
> expressed were limited to a few and that only in the modern period
> were composers free to explore others that had not been touched
> upon. Whereas others composers saw the early 20th century as a turn
> away from the emotions, he saw it as a further liberation.

I agree with Bela. In the 20th century, composers almost let go of
all the composing restrictions, and they became more fully able to
express themselves through harmony and structure not previously
acceptable.

However, the Romantic period might always be remembered as
the "sweet spot" of musical emotion because the music was generally
more expressive and emotional than in the Classical era, but non-
musicians could still relate to it. I unfortunately know few people,
if any, who enjoy 20th century "neo-classical" music, who aren't
musicians themselves. It's just not "pretty" to them, so it seems
cold rather than emotional.

Even I didn't like much 20th century until I heard Bartok. I
learned that if I don't like a certain music, it's only because I
don't understand it. But then when I understand how it works and why
it was written ...

-Codroid

I'm not so sure about calling what music is expressing "emotions". Music is
certainly expressing something very precise (at least as precise as any
language) but calling it "emotions" can be either misleading or limiting.
While some music can be related to our emotional states in a broad and
general way ("happy", "sad", "tragic", "longing"), most of it cannot be so
easily mapped. Programmatic music is a novelty, and I would classify
depiction of emotional states as programmatic. Or maybe its better to say
that music can express (or suggest) all human emotions as just one small
subset of its capabilities, but that music as a language has a lot more to
speak of. Music is also a tool or catalyst in that it can induce
non-ordinary states of consciousness, and then its purpose is not at all to
express emotions. This is probably found even more in other cultures.

I think western romantic music comes from a period in which intellectuals
and artists philosophically valued human emotion, and therefore wanted to
express it in music. They did a great job of it too, but its only one of the
many possible things music can be about, and of course it was a group
project relying on cultural consensus of how certain harmonies, textures,
dynamics, and gestures would be agreed upon to represent certain emotions.
It might be argued that it was a purely arbitrary assignment, and the
listener too must "learn the code" before the emotional expression is
intelligible. Just about the only thing I can think of that >might< be
coming from the sounds themselves is the major/minor triad associations with
light and dark, but I'm not really convinced of that either.

Before the late 16th c. I don't think you can find much overt emotional
expression in music. And once the various forms of nontonal music are
reached in the 20th c, it doesn't seem to be about emotion any more either
(unless its all about "anxiety", but that's not in the music- that's the
listeners response to noise and/or the disorientation of not having a tonal
center and subsets of senarius partials (a.k.a. "triads") flitting about.)

All the various 20th c "dialects" require at least some investment of time
before they can begin to be understood. In this way they are no different
than any other music, but with, say, the romantic period, you just had to
learn one dialect and could then appreciate all (or most of) the music being
made, whereas in the 20th c. it is more the case that each composer requires
learning a new dialect, and you're not even sure if its worth it until you
put in the time and effort, at which point you may decide it wasn't. Its
like learning a new language to see what people are talking about in it, and
then finding out they're just bullshitting or babbling. How much time do
most people have to spend in this kind of exploration, besides musicians
themselves and some few aficionados? For all us old fogies who cant
understand why hip hop has taken over music, im sure if we spent enough time
listening, finding out whos-who and immersing ourselves in the culture, it
would begin to make sense, but I for one don't have the time or inclination.
Most people don't have the time or inclination to put in the effort
necessary to begin to appreciate serial music, nor should they- there's not
that much return on the energy put in, when all is said and done.

We all know that often the response to microtonal music is that it sounds
"out of tune", whereas to us 12edo sounds out of tune! It just depends on
what you're used to hearing, and the same goes for musical styles and what
the music is expressing, if anything, beyond the play of pitches and rhythms
in time according to rules that are either personal or cultural-consensus.

Dante

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Stevie Hryciw [mailto:codroid@...]
>Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 3:46 AM
>To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [MMM] Re: new emotions
>
>
>
>
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
>> We tend to view the romantic era as the great period of musical
>> emotional expression, yet as Bartok pointed out, the emotions to be
>> expressed were limited to a few and that only in the modern period
>> were composers free to explore others that had not been touched
>> upon. Whereas others composers saw the early 20th century as a turn
>> away from the emotions, he saw it as a further liberation.
>
> I agree with Bela. In the 20th century, composers almost let go of
>all the composing restrictions, and they became more fully able to
>express themselves through harmony and structure not previously
>acceptable.
>
> However, the Romantic period might always be remembered as
>the "sweet spot" of musical emotion because the music was generally
>more expressive and emotional than in the Classical era, but non-
>musicians could still relate to it. I unfortunately know few people,
>if any, who enjoy 20th century "neo-classical" music, who aren't
>musicians themselves. It's just not "pretty" to them, so it seems
>cold rather than emotional.
>
> Even I didn't like much 20th century until I heard Bartok. I
>learned that if I don't like a certain music, it's only because I
>don't understand it. But then when I understand how it works and why
>it was written ...
>
>-Codroid
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Dante-

I agree with alot of what you're saying, especially that music can express
more than a small subset of emotions, even introducing new emotions or states
of consciousness. Hence my interest in microtonal music....

I like Wittgenstein's quote, "After silence, that which comes nearest to
expressing the inexpressible is music".

Regarding universality of emotional gesture, Darwin did work on that, and many
post-Darwin neuroscientists, and it's pretty well established that there are
universal gestures and facial expressions for the basic emotional states, no
cultural exceptions, and I see no reason that music cannot reasonably 'map'
these. As a thought experiment, try to imagine writing a musical passage
which presumably expresses grief that is fortissimo, all sixteenth notes and
quarter note=200! Anger maybe, joy maybe, but not grief. I *do* agree that no
two individuals are bound to feel *exactly* the same thing listening to a
given piece, but the subjective realm is impossible to penetrate, so we will
never know. The closest we can come is the faith that neural states exactly
map to subjective states, and read the neural measurements of several
subjects. Maybe people do "feel" the same things, but like certain feelings
over others. Or we are culturally trained to favor certain feelings, and
shamed out of others.

Sylvan Tomkins and other have suggested that there are a few basic emotional
states we have at birth as infants (I think 5? does anyone know this), and
that all the others are complexes of this basic set. Makes sense to me--we
are hard-wired for some, and maybe culturally influenced to produce others
through the cultural-linguistic influence which effects their combination.

I think what you might be trying to say is that music cannot tell a
programmatic story with precision, which Bernstein so aptly demonstrated in
his Young People's concerts. Or *is* that what you meant?

Best,
Aaron.

On Sunday 27 February 2005 03:41 am, Dante Rosati wrote:
> I'm not so sure about calling what music is expressing "emotions". Music is
> certainly expressing something very precise (at least as precise as any
> language) but calling it "emotions" can be either misleading or limiting.
> While some music can be related to our emotional states in a broad and
> general way ("happy", "sad", "tragic", "longing"), most of it cannot be so
> easily mapped. Programmatic music is a novelty, and I would classify
> depiction of emotional states as programmatic. Or maybe its better to say
> that music can express (or suggest) all human emotions as just one small
> subset of its capabilities, but that music as a language has a lot more to
> speak of. Music is also a tool or catalyst in that it can induce
> non-ordinary states of consciousness, and then its purpose is not at all to
> express emotions. This is probably found even more in other cultures.
>
> I think western romantic music comes from a period in which intellectuals
> and artists philosophically valued human emotion, and therefore wanted to
> express it in music. They did a great job of it too, but its only one of
> the many possible things music can be about, and of course it was a group
> project relying on cultural consensus of how certain harmonies, textures,
> dynamics, and gestures would be agreed upon to represent certain emotions.
> It might be argued that it was a purely arbitrary assignment, and the
> listener too must "learn the code" before the emotional expression is
> intelligible. Just about the only thing I can think of that >might< be
> coming from the sounds themselves is the major/minor triad associations
> with light and dark, but I'm not really convinced of that either.
>
> Before the late 16th c. I don't think you can find much overt emotional
> expression in music. And once the various forms of nontonal music are
> reached in the 20th c, it doesn't seem to be about emotion any more either
> (unless its all about "anxiety", but that's not in the music- that's the
> listeners response to noise and/or the disorientation of not having a tonal
> center and subsets of senarius partials (a.k.a. "triads") flitting about.)
>
> All the various 20th c "dialects" require at least some investment of time
> before they can begin to be understood. In this way they are no different
> than any other music, but with, say, the romantic period, you just had to
> learn one dialect and could then appreciate all (or most of) the music
> being made, whereas in the 20th c. it is more the case that each composer
> requires learning a new dialect, and you're not even sure if its worth it
> until you put in the time and effort, at which point you may decide it
> wasn't. Its like learning a new language to see what people are talking
> about in it, and then finding out they're just bullshitting or babbling.
> How much time do most people have to spend in this kind of exploration,
> besides musicians themselves and some few aficionados? For all us old
> fogies who cant understand why hip hop has taken over music, im sure if we
> spent enough time listening, finding out whos-who and immersing ourselves
> in the culture, it would begin to make sense, but I for one don't have the
> time or inclination. Most people don't have the time or inclination to put
> in the effort necessary to begin to appreciate serial music, nor should
> they- there's not that much return on the energy put in, when all is said
> and done.
>
> We all know that often the response to microtonal music is that it sounds
> "out of tune", whereas to us 12edo sounds out of tune! It just depends on
> what you're used to hearing, and the same goes for musical styles and what
> the music is expressing, if anything, beyond the play of pitches and
> rhythms in time according to rules that are either personal or
> cultural-consensus.
>
> Dante
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Stevie Hryciw [mailto:codroid@...]
> >Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 3:46 AM
> >To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [MMM] Re: new emotions
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
> >
> >> We tend to view the romantic era as the great period of musical
> >> emotional expression, yet as Bartok pointed out, the emotions to be
> >> expressed were limited to a few and that only in the modern period
> >> were composers free to explore others that had not been touched
> >> upon. Whereas others composers saw the early 20th century as a turn
> >> away from the emotions, he saw it as a further liberation.
> >
> > I agree with Bela. In the 20th century, composers almost let go of
> >all the composing restrictions, and they became more fully able to
> >express themselves through harmony and structure not previously
> >acceptable.
> >
> > However, the Romantic period might always be remembered as
> >the "sweet spot" of musical emotion because the music was generally
> >more expressive and emotional than in the Classical era, but non-
> >musicians could still relate to it. I unfortunately know few people,
> >if any, who enjoy 20th century "neo-classical" music, who aren't
> >musicians themselves. It's just not "pretty" to them, so it seems
> >cold rather than emotional.
> >
> > Even I didn't like much 20th century until I heard Bartok. I
> >learned that if I don't like a certain music, it's only because I
> >don't understand it. But then when I understand how it works and why
> >it was written ...
> >
> >-Codroid
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

i Aaron-

I agree that within the western program of how music expresses emotions, you might be hard pressed to express grief with allegro sixteenth notes, but more to the point is that none of our western modes of expression of emotions through music would be intelligible at all to an andean forest dweller, for example.

Dante

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Aaron K. Johnson [mailto:akjmicro@...]
>Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 10:21 AM
>To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [MMM] Re: new emotions
>
>
>
>Dante-
>
>I agree with alot of what you're saying, especially that music can express
>more than a small subset of emotions, even introducing new
>emotions or states
>of consciousness. Hence my interest in microtonal music....
>
>I like Wittgenstein's quote, "After silence, that which comes nearest to
>expressing the inexpressible is music".
>
>Regarding universality of emotional gesture, Darwin did work on
>that, and many
>post-Darwin neuroscientists, and it's pretty well established that
>there are
>universal gestures and facial expressions for the basic emotional
>states, no
>cultural exceptions, and I see no reason that music cannot
>reasonably 'map'
>these. As a thought experiment, try to imagine writing a musical passage
>which presumably expresses grief that is fortissimo, all sixteenth
>notes and
>quarter note=200! Anger maybe, joy maybe, but not grief. I *do*
>agree that no
>two individuals are bound to feel *exactly* the same thing listening to a
>given piece, but the subjective realm is impossible to penetrate,
>so we will
>never know. The closest we can come is the faith that neural
>states exactly
>map to subjective states, and read the neural measurements of several
>subjects. Maybe people do "feel" the same things, but like certain
>feelings
>over others. Or we are culturally trained to favor certain feelings, and
>shamed out of others.
>
>Sylvan Tomkins and other have suggested that there are a few basic
>emotional
>states we have at birth as infants (I think 5? does anyone know this), and
>that all the others are complexes of this basic set. Makes sense to me--we
>are hard-wired for some, and maybe culturally influenced to produce others
>through the cultural-linguistic influence which effects their combination.
>
>I think what you might be trying to say is that music cannot tell a
>programmatic story with precision, which Bernstein so aptly
>demonstrated in
>his Young People's concerts. Or *is* that what you meant?
>
>Best,
>Aaron.
>
>
>On Sunday 27 February 2005 03:41 am, Dante Rosati wrote:
>> I'm not so sure about calling what music is expressing
>"emotions". Music is
>> certainly expressing something very precise (at least as precise as any
>> language) but calling it "emotions" can be either misleading or limiting.
>> While some music can be related to our emotional states in a broad and
>> general way ("happy", "sad", "tragic", "longing"), most of it
>cannot be so
>> easily mapped. Programmatic music is a novelty, and I would classify
>> depiction of emotional states as programmatic. Or maybe its better to say
>> that music can express (or suggest) all human emotions as just one small
>> subset of its capabilities, but that music as a language has a
>lot more to
>> speak of. Music is also a tool or catalyst in that it can induce
>> non-ordinary states of consciousness, and then its purpose is
>not at all to
>> express emotions. This is probably found even more in other cultures.
>>
>> I think western romantic music comes from a period in which intellectuals
>> and artists philosophically valued human emotion, and therefore wanted to
>> express it in music. They did a great job of it too, but its only one of
>> the many possible things music can be about, and of course it was a group
>> project relying on cultural consensus of how certain harmonies, textures,
>> dynamics, and gestures would be agreed upon to represent certain
>emotions.
>> It might be argued that it was a purely arbitrary assignment, and the
>> listener too must "learn the code" before the emotional expression is
>> intelligible. Just about the only thing I can think of that >might< be
>> coming from the sounds themselves is the major/minor triad associations
>> with light and dark, but I'm not really convinced of that either.
>>
>> Before the late 16th c. I don't think you can find much overt emotional
>> expression in music. And once the various forms of nontonal music are
>> reached in the 20th c, it doesn't seem to be about emotion any
>more either
>> (unless its all about "anxiety", but that's not in the music- that's the
>> listeners response to noise and/or the disorientation of not
>having a tonal
>> center and subsets of senarius partials (a.k.a. "triads")
>flitting about.)
>>
>> All the various 20th c "dialects" require at least some
>investment of time
>> before they can begin to be understood. In this way they are no different
>> than any other music, but with, say, the romantic period, you just had to
>> learn one dialect and could then appreciate all (or most of) the music
>> being made, whereas in the 20th c. it is more the case that each composer
>> requires learning a new dialect, and you're not even sure if its worth it
>> until you put in the time and effort, at which point you may decide it
>> wasn't. Its like learning a new language to see what people are talking
>> about in it, and then finding out they're just bullshitting or babbling.
>> How much time do most people have to spend in this kind of exploration,
>> besides musicians themselves and some few aficionados? For all us old
>> fogies who cant understand why hip hop has taken over music, im
>sure if we
>> spent enough time listening, finding out whos-who and immersing ourselves
>> in the culture, it would begin to make sense, but I for one
>don't have the
>> time or inclination. Most people don't have the time or
>inclination to put
>> in the effort necessary to begin to appreciate serial music, nor should
>> they- there's not that much return on the energy put in, when all is said
>> and done.
>>
>> We all know that often the response to microtonal music is that it sounds
>> "out of tune", whereas to us 12edo sounds out of tune! It just depends on
>> what you're used to hearing, and the same goes for musical
>styles and what
>> the music is expressing, if anything, beyond the play of pitches and
>> rhythms in time according to rules that are either personal or
>> cultural-consensus.
>>
>> Dante
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Stevie Hryciw [mailto:codroid@...]
>> >Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 3:46 AM
>> >To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
>> >Subject: [MMM] Re: new emotions
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
>> >
>> >> We tend to view the romantic era as the great period of musical
>> >> emotional expression, yet as Bartok pointed out, the emotions to be
>> >> expressed were limited to a few and that only in the modern period
>> >> were composers free to explore others that had not been touched
>> >> upon. Whereas others composers saw the early 20th century as a turn
>> >> away from the emotions, he saw it as a further liberation.
>> >
>> > I agree with Bela. In the 20th century, composers almost let go of
>> >all the composing restrictions, and they became more fully able to
>> >express themselves through harmony and structure not previously
>> >acceptable.
>> >
>> > However, the Romantic period might always be remembered as
>> >the "sweet spot" of musical emotion because the music was generally
>> >more expressive and emotional than in the Classical era, but non-
>> >musicians could still relate to it. I unfortunately know few people,
>> >if any, who enjoy 20th century "neo-classical" music, who aren't
>> >musicians themselves. It's just not "pretty" to them, so it seems
>> >cold rather than emotional.
>> >
>> > Even I didn't like much 20th century until I heard Bartok. I
>> >learned that if I don't like a certain music, it's only because I
>> >don't understand it. But then when I understand how it works and why
>> >it was written ...
>> >
>> >-Codroid
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>--
>Aaron Krister Johnson
>http://www.akjmusic.com
>http://www.dividebypi.com
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hell Dante!
While i will agree with you and thank you for your addition of the perception of music creating states ( which is my own direction) , i tend to think of these as emotions, but possibly they exist only because of music. Whether this is true or not , i will need to think about.
As to the Andean or other non european culture reaction to european music, i would say, it must have something that is almost immediately expressible , otherwise, western music and instruments would not and could not expand to such regions so easily. As someone who deals in much world music, I am sure that there are subtleties of expression that i miss, but i doubt that my reactions could be opposing.
As for serialism expressing something beyond emotions, i question . and the idea that we must dismiss our 'subjective reaction to music in order to penetrate to what is beyond, rather absurd. Music is nothing but subjective and what exist " objectively" in music can be conveyed without the sound even happening. just looking at the score per se. In fact possibly turning it into sound exposes the very lack of understanding of the materials that are being used in the sense that what is perceived differs from what is the intent.

Dante Rosati wrote:

>i Aaron-
>
>I agree that within the western program of how music expresses emotions, you might be hard pressed to express grief with allegro sixteenth notes, but more to the point is that none of our western modes of expression of emotions through music would be intelligible at all to an andean forest dweller, for example. >
>Dante
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Hello Steve!
I find it interesting in that my own experience is the exact opposite on this one. I know of no one who i have played any , say mid 20th century music that have not understood it, in fact , most find it conservative and in the same category as Romantic music. Soundtracks have long ago surpassed the level of dissonance and syntax of most of this. Most musician i know likewise have little or no interest in say, Stravinsky as they hear absolutely nothing innovative in him at all! Then again, i am in L.A.
Stevie Hryciw wrote:

>
> I unfortunately know few people, >if any, who enjoy 20th century "neo-classical" music, who aren't >musicians themselves. It's just not "pretty" to them, so it seems >cold rather than emotional.
>
> Even I didn't like much 20th century until I heard Bartok. I >learned that if I don't like a certain music, it's only because I >don't understand it. But then when I understand how it works and why >it was written ...
>
>-Codroid
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

I had attempted to make the point that English lacks the words for emotions and the range of differentiation in which they occur. I would say that we are for the most part unconscious of what they are. (since we are always trying to get them out of the way). A lack of differentiation is a clear sign of unconsciousness of something. The Japanese have over 50 words for silence, all in regard to the character of the silence.
In order to substantiate that music expresses something beyond emotion and the activation of various conscious states. ( the latter , i think the west has been able to get to via a relationship with painting) We need to know what these are, in order to really understand what is going on .
I am not stating that music , especially in the west has not attempted to go beyond these, but we need to take an honest look to see , if this or could be possible. In defense of this thread, i had also attempted to convey how this subject , sets goals and problems for the art of music beside the technological ones. Or should we just let technology determines music where it wills without regard for what the inner necessity begs for.

Aaron K. Johnson wrote:

>Dante-
>
>I agree with alot of what you're saying, especially that music can express >more than a small subset of emotions, even introducing new emotions or states >of consciousness. Hence my interest in microtonal music....
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Dante Rosati <dante@...> wrote:

> All the various 20th c "dialects" require at least some investment of
time
before they can begin to be understood.

I'm not completely convinced of this at all, because I immediately liked Webern on first hearing, and did NOT like Bartok until later, after many more hearings and some study. Maybe to me there was a certain rhetorical coolness in Webern's music that felt good on my 'fevered brow' of the time (c. 1970). I'm still a fan...

On the other hand, I hated classical musical music, especially Mozart, until I studied it. I think I picked up at first on what I still feel was his arrogance, pretentiousness, and misanthropy (not to mention insipid, clinging phraseologies...). ;-) I like him a lot better now...in fact, I'm happily learning a Bassett Horn part for K 361, right now.

> We all know that often the response to microtonal music is that it sounds
"out of tune", whereas to us 12edo sounds out of tune! It just depends on
what you're used to hearing...

The first time I heard Partch what struck me was far from out-of-tuneness, but that a whole continuum of pitch possibility was not made available to my conception until I heard his music. But his music alone, unlike other 20C composers (and just about anyone else!), had the kind of 'sincerity' to make me believe in that possibility, and made me resent the shackles of my "teachers". Oooh... ;-)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kraig Grady wrote:

>Hello Steve!
> I find it interesting in that my own experience is the exact opposite >on this one. I know of no one who i have played any , say mid 20th >century music that have not understood it, in fact , most find it >conservative and in the same category as Romantic music. Soundtracks >have long ago surpassed the level of dissonance and syntax of most of >this. Most musician i know likewise have little or no interest in say, >Stravinsky as they hear absolutely nothing innovative in him at all! > >
I'm a big Stravinsky fan.

>Then again, i am in L.A.
> >
I'm not sure it makes a difference.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

Yello, Kraig-

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
> Hello Steve!
> I find it interesting in that my own experience is the exact
opposite
> on this one. I know of no one who i have played any , say mid 20th
> century music that have not understood it, in fact , most find it
> conservative and in the same category as Romantic music.
Huh, funny. I'm always reminded how on some levels deep down, we're
all built sort of the same, yet similar experiences can make us react
entirely differently.

I like to look at things contextually, so considering that something
like "The Rite of Spring" made so many fuming mad and is now
considered by many a classic, it's all in who and when you are. Of
course, anything that pisses somebody off is bound to make another
joyous.

> Soundtracks
> have long ago surpassed the level of dissonance and syntax of most
of
> this. Most musician i know likewise have little or no interest in
say,
> Stravinsky as they hear absolutely nothing innovative in him at all!

I think fewer people pay direct attention to a soundtrack because the
focus of a movie is the plot and action onscreen. So if the action is
dissonant, it calls for a supporting musical dissonance, and someone
may just accept it without thinking about it (which is partially the
intention of many soundtracks).

> Then again, i am in L.A.

That don't mean a thang! Ah, but who knows? There is no one answer!

Snow,
-Cheevish

Hiya Kraig

> As to the Andean or other non european culture reaction to european
>music, i would say, it must have something that is almost immediately
>expressible , otherwise, western music and instruments would not and
>could not expand to such regions so easily. As someone who deals in much
>world music, I am sure that there are subtleties of expression that i
>miss, but i doubt that my reactions could be opposing.

I think you have to distinguish two different situations: the gradual introduction of western classical music into (for example) asian culture, eventually having kids there grow up hearing the stuff, and on the other hand taking an ipod into sumatra or the andes and playing beethoven to someone in a grass skirt and asking them what "emotions" it evokes. Anyone can learn into the western classical vernacular over time, but i dont think its inherent in the music itself. The andean dude may very well have some kind of reaction to the music, but that will say more about his mindset than it will about beethoven.

To turn the tables, when we hear something like gamelan music for the first time, it is no doubt evocative for us of many possible things, but i doubt any of them is what is experienced by a native balinese who grows up in that culture hearing that music.

> As for serialism expressing something beyond emotions, i question .
>and the idea that we must dismiss our 'subjective reaction to music in
>order to penetrate to what is beyond, rather absurd. Music is nothing
>but subjective and what exist " objectively" in music can be conveyed
>without the sound even happening. just looking at the score per se. In
>fact possibly turning it into sound exposes the very lack of
>understanding of the materials that are being used in the sense that
>what is perceived differs from what is the intent.

I'm not sure if you're commenting on something i said here, but I would agree that our subjective reaction to music is all there is. Groups of people can collectively agree to have similar reactions to certain musical gestures, but none of it is in the vibrations themselves. If you chant "om" in a low voice over a prolonged period, the vibrations and overtones will set up standing wave resonances in your system that I believe are beneficial to both body and mind, but beyond that I'm not sure what, if any, other attributes of music can be assigned to the sounds themselves and not our cultural interpretations of them.

Dante

Hi Kraig,

I have your _Creation of the Worlds_ on my iPod mini and listened to
it again this weekend. Talk about new emotions! You are to be
commended for bringing to reality such an intense and complex vision.
I can only imagine what an incredible effort it all must have taken --
building and tuning the instruments, composing, performing,
recording. Perhaps it's just my naivete, but it seems to be that
works like yours, and microtonality in general, expand the emotional
palette beyond Bartok and other 20th century composers as much as
they expanded it beyond the Romantic period. Emancipation of the
dissonance, indeed! Or maybe I was simply finally in the right mood
to understand your piece!

-Paul

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
> Hi George and apologize if i take off on this tread into a
different
> direction and direct my comments more to the group as a whole . I
was in
> no way attempting to take away from their approach. In fact it
seems to
> me this is the actual goal. the availability of such emotional
shading.
> But the problem is more complex for a variety of reasons.
>
> We tend to view the romantic era as the great period of musical
> emotional expression, yet as Bartok pointed out, the emotions to be
> expressed were limited to a few and that only in the modern period
were
> composers free to explore others that had not been touched upon.
Whereas
> others composers saw the early 20th century as a turn away from the
> emotions, he saw it as a further liberation.
>
> The problem, as i see it is that we could have a completely
open
> array of possible choices, but more often than not , it is the
actual
> pitch array, or we might say master scale that is responsible for
the
> results Ivor Derrig is a good example, although not the first of
the
> latter and the shuti system of India is a possible example of a
system
> that combines both, self containment that allows commatic
fluctuations.
>
> Ways in which this problem could be approached :
> 1. The use of ambiguous intervals that performers will
consciously
> or subconsciously modify in actual performance. This is the method
of 12
> ET for the most part.
> 2. The use of set intervals with those in-between being
flexible.
> This can be seen pretty much in tetrachordal scales the tones in
between
> vary.
> 3. Scales formed by a chain or possibly combined chains (as in
> Margo's case, although 2 would also apply to her approach ). This
would
> include Chains that created 'near misses' that would function as
> alternative intonations of other pitches ( as mentioned in the
> persian-indian) scales
>
> I put this forth for others to possibly fill in the gaps.
>
> George D. Secor wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >While that's quite true, the difference in the way Margo and Ozan
> >approach this (if I understand it correctly) is that they are able
to
> >*notate* these fine or "expressive" differences in pitch by
employing
> >tunings in which both "usual" and "alternative" pitches exist.
This
> >allows them to communicate a specific *intention*, making it much
> >less a matter of a particular performer's intuition or
interpretation.
> >
> >--George
> >
> >
> >
> >
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

There are quite a few universals in human communication, and I think
Aaron was pointing to one of them, speaking more generally than "the
western program". Dante, may I suggest a book for you? _The Language
Instinct_ by Steven Pinker. What used to be the "standard social
science model" for decades, emphasizing cultural relativism and the
like, is most definitely on its way out, many of its central examples
having been shown to be bunk, and much new work shedding light on the
deep commonalities between humans across cultures. I agree that much,
or most, of music is arbitrary, like language -- but I think Aaron
was pointing to some valid musical universals, and Pinker does the
same in the language field.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...>
wrote:
> i Aaron-
>
> I agree that within the western program of how music expresses
emotions, you might be hard pressed to express grief with allegro
sixteenth notes, but more to the point is that none of our western
modes of expression of emotions through music would be intelligible
at all to an andean forest dweller, for example.
>
> Dante
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Aaron K. Johnson [mailto:akjmicro@c...]
> >Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 10:21 AM
> >To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [MMM] Re: new emotions
> >
> >
> >
> >Dante-
> >
> >I agree with alot of what you're saying, especially that music can
express
> >more than a small subset of emotions, even introducing new
> >emotions or states
> >of consciousness. Hence my interest in microtonal music....
> >
> >I like Wittgenstein's quote, "After silence, that which comes
nearest to
> >expressing the inexpressible is music".
> >
> >Regarding universality of emotional gesture, Darwin did work on
> >that, and many
> >post-Darwin neuroscientists, and it's pretty well established that
> >there are
> >universal gestures and facial expressions for the basic emotional
> >states, no
> >cultural exceptions, and I see no reason that music cannot
> >reasonably 'map'
> >these. As a thought experiment, try to imagine writing a musical
passage
> >which presumably expresses grief that is fortissimo, all sixteenth
> >notes and
> >quarter note=200! Anger maybe, joy maybe, but not grief. I *do*
> >agree that no
> >two individuals are bound to feel *exactly* the same thing
listening to a
> >given piece, but the subjective realm is impossible to penetrate,
> >so we will
> >never know. The closest we can come is the faith that neural
> >states exactly
> >map to subjective states, and read the neural measurements of
several
> >subjects. Maybe people do "feel" the same things, but like certain
> >feelings
> >over others. Or we are culturally trained to favor certain
feelings, and
> >shamed out of others.
> >
> >Sylvan Tomkins and other have suggested that there are a few basic
> >emotional
> >states we have at birth as infants (I think 5? does anyone know
this), and
> >that all the others are complexes of this basic set. Makes sense
to me--we
> >are hard-wired for some, and maybe culturally influenced to
produce others
> >through the cultural-linguistic influence which effects their
combination.
> >
> >I think what you might be trying to say is that music cannot tell
a
> >programmatic story with precision, which Bernstein so aptly
> >demonstrated in
> >his Young People's concerts. Or *is* that what you meant?
> >
> >Best,
> >Aaron.
> >
> >
> >On Sunday 27 February 2005 03:41 am, Dante Rosati wrote:
> >> I'm not so sure about calling what music is expressing
> >"emotions". Music is
> >> certainly expressing something very precise (at least as precise
as any
> >> language) but calling it "emotions" can be either misleading or
limiting.
> >> While some music can be related to our emotional states in a
broad and
> >> general way ("happy", "sad", "tragic", "longing"), most of it
> >cannot be so
> >> easily mapped. Programmatic music is a novelty, and I would
classify
> >> depiction of emotional states as programmatic. Or maybe its
better to say
> >> that music can express (or suggest) all human emotions as just
one small
> >> subset of its capabilities, but that music as a language has a
> >lot more to
> >> speak of. Music is also a tool or catalyst in that it can induce
> >> non-ordinary states of consciousness, and then its purpose is
> >not at all to
> >> express emotions. This is probably found even more in other
cultures.
> >>
> >> I think western romantic music comes from a period in which
intellectuals
> >> and artists philosophically valued human emotion, and therefore
wanted to
> >> express it in music. They did a great job of it too, but its
only one of
> >> the many possible things music can be about, and of course it
was a group
> >> project relying on cultural consensus of how certain harmonies,
textures,
> >> dynamics, and gestures would be agreed upon to represent certain
> >emotions.
> >> It might be argued that it was a purely arbitrary assignment,
and the
> >> listener too must "learn the code" before the emotional
expression is
> >> intelligible. Just about the only thing I can think of that
>might< be
> >> coming from the sounds themselves is the major/minor triad
associations
> >> with light and dark, but I'm not really convinced of that either.
> >>
> >> Before the late 16th c. I don't think you can find much overt
emotional
> >> expression in music. And once the various forms of nontonal
music are
> >> reached in the 20th c, it doesn't seem to be about emotion any
> >more either
> >> (unless its all about "anxiety", but that's not in the music-
that's the
> >> listeners response to noise and/or the disorientation of not
> >having a tonal
> >> center and subsets of senarius partials (a.k.a. "triads")
> >flitting about.)
> >>
> >> All the various 20th c "dialects" require at least some
> >investment of time
> >> before they can begin to be understood. In this way they are no
different
> >> than any other music, but with, say, the romantic period, you
just had to
> >> learn one dialect and could then appreciate all (or most of) the
music
> >> being made, whereas in the 20th c. it is more the case that each
composer
> >> requires learning a new dialect, and you're not even sure if its
worth it
> >> until you put in the time and effort, at which point you may
decide it
> >> wasn't. Its like learning a new language to see what people are
talking
> >> about in it, and then finding out they're just bullshitting or
babbling.
> >> How much time do most people have to spend in this kind of
exploration,
> >> besides musicians themselves and some few aficionados? For all
us old
> >> fogies who cant understand why hip hop has taken over music, im
> >sure if we
> >> spent enough time listening, finding out whos-who and immersing
ourselves
> >> in the culture, it would begin to make sense, but I for one
> >don't have the
> >> time or inclination. Most people don't have the time or
> >inclination to put
> >> in the effort necessary to begin to appreciate serial music, nor
should
> >> they- there's not that much return on the energy put in, when
all is said
> >> and done.
> >>
> >> We all know that often the response to microtonal music is that
it sounds
> >> "out of tune", whereas to us 12edo sounds out of tune! It just
depends on
> >> what you're used to hearing, and the same goes for musical
> >styles and what
> >> the music is expressing, if anything, beyond the play of pitches
and
> >> rhythms in time according to rules that are either personal or
> >> cultural-consensus.
> >>
> >> Dante
> >>
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: Stevie Hryciw [mailto:codroid@y...]
> >> >Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 3:46 AM
> >> >To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
> >> >Subject: [MMM] Re: new emotions
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady
<kraiggrady@a...>
> >> >
> >> >> We tend to view the romantic era as the great period of
musical
> >> >> emotional expression, yet as Bartok pointed out, the emotions
to be
> >> >> expressed were limited to a few and that only in the modern
period
> >> >> were composers free to explore others that had not been
touched
> >> >> upon. Whereas others composers saw the early 20th century as
a turn
> >> >> away from the emotions, he saw it as a further liberation.
> >> >
> >> > I agree with Bela. In the 20th century, composers almost let
go of
> >> >all the composing restrictions, and they became more fully able
to
> >> >express themselves through harmony and structure not previously
> >> >acceptable.
> >> >
> >> > However, the Romantic period might always be remembered as
> >> >the "sweet spot" of musical emotion because the music was
generally
> >> >more expressive and emotional than in the Classical era, but
non-
> >> >musicians could still relate to it. I unfortunately know few
people,
> >> >if any, who enjoy 20th century "neo-classical" music, who aren't
> >> >musicians themselves. It's just not "pretty" to them, so it
seems
> >> >cold rather than emotional.
> >> >
> >> > Even I didn't like much 20th century until I heard Bartok. I
> >> >learned that if I don't like a certain music, it's only because
I
> >> >don't understand it. But then when I understand how it works
and why
> >> >it was written ...
> >> >
> >> >-Codroid
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >--
> >Aaron Krister Johnson
> >http://www.akjmusic.com
> >http://www.dividebypi.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...>
wrote:

> I'm a big Stravinsky fan.

Me too!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- got Firebird and some others on my iPod
mini . . . the stuff definitely still seems totally fresh to me.

. . . and just in case this seems off-topic, read this Stravinsky
quote:

http://www.72note.com/stravinsky/stravinsky.html

This is a fascinating discussion, I must say. Reminds me of things
I've pondered long and hard for many years.

What are things that people get out of music? What is it that we
humans experience in music that makes it so essential to our lives?
Indeed different cultures make very different musics for very
different reasons, yet I can think of no culture that is completely
devoid of music of any form. I've often been fascinated by the
extremely complex hierarchy of interpretations we Westerners have
developed for our particular musics, as well as all the
preconceptions about what is "good taste". Where does music really
sit in our culture? What is it capable of? Is the concept
of "emotion" as being distinct from "thought" even relevant in
relation to music?

It's very strange to think about the various esthetics and thresholds
that listeners apply to themselves...that there appears (to me,
anyway) to be no consistency in even what people in our culture
consider to be "good music". Even controlling factors of race,
gender, location, and socio-economic background seems to only
marginally narrow it down. I think the notion of "good taste" is
completely nonsensical, unless you use the word to express how
similar a given person's preferences are to your own.

If this sounds off topic, let me try to bring it back home. All of
us here put an unusual amount of effort into understanding the
principles of how music functions. We've all to some extent rejected
the status quo (12-tet) in favor of something completely novel; we've
side-stepped cultural restraints and the boundaries of tradtion.
Being that this is not a simple or easy task, we should all be asking
ourselves two questions: "What are we trying to accomplish, and why?"

I am extraordinarily curious as to what is motivating all of us here,
and I know that this seems like a basic (maybe even non-musical)
question for which many of you might suggest that the answer is
implicit, but I've never seen this question asked and thought it time
that it was. Just so we can all remind ourselves of its answer.

Any thoughts?

-Igs

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...>
wrote:
> Hiya Kraig
>
> > As to the Andean or other non european culture reaction to
european
> >music, i would say, it must have something that is almost
immediately
> >expressible , otherwise, western music and instruments would not
and
> >could not expand to such regions so easily. As someone who deals
in much
> >world music, I am sure that there are subtleties of expression
that i
> >miss, but i doubt that my reactions could be opposing.
>
> I think you have to distinguish two different situations: the
gradual introduction of western classical music into (for example)
asian culture, eventually having kids there grow up hearing the
stuff, and on the other hand taking an ipod into sumatra or the andes
and playing beethoven to someone in a grass skirt and asking them
what "emotions" it evokes. Anyone can learn into the western
classical vernacular over time, but i dont think its inherent in the
music itself. The andean dude may very well have some kind of
reaction to the music, but that will say more about his mindset than
it will about beethoven.
>
> To turn the tables, when we hear something like gamelan music for
the first time, it is no doubt evocative for us of many possible
things, but i doubt any of them is what is experienced by a native
balinese who grows up in that culture hearing that music.
>
>
> > As for serialism expressing something beyond emotions, i
question .
> >and the idea that we must dismiss our 'subjective reaction to
music in
> >order to penetrate to what is beyond, rather absurd. Music is
nothing
> >but subjective and what exist " objectively" in music can be
conveyed
> >without the sound even happening. just looking at the score per
se. In
> >fact possibly turning it into sound exposes the very lack of
> >understanding of the materials that are being used in the sense
that
> >what is perceived differs from what is the intent.
>
> I'm not sure if you're commenting on something i said here, but I
would agree that our subjective reaction to music is all there is.
Groups of people can collectively agree to have similar reactions to
certain musical gestures, but none of it is in the vibrations
themselves. If you chant "om" in a low voice over a prolonged period,
the vibrations and overtones will set up standing wave resonances in
your system that I believe are beneficial to both body and mind, but
beyond that I'm not sure what, if any, other attributes of music can
be assigned to the sounds themselves and not our cultural
interpretations of them.
>
> Dante

>Hello Steve!
> I find it interesting in that my own experience is the exact opposite
>on this one. I know of no one who i have played any , say mid 20th
>century music that have not understood it, in fact , most find it
>conservative and in the same category as Romantic music. Soundtracks
>have long ago surpassed the level of dissonance and syntax of most of
>this.

It's true about soundtracks. But context has a lot to do with it,
in my experience. What folks will enjoy in a movie, they might thumb
their noses at on a CD. This sort of thing was really driven home
to me at a concert of 20th-century Swiss music once, in my little
home town. The audience was entirely ignorant of 20th-century music,
I'm sure, yet everyone loved it immensely. Yet I am sure that had I
played a CD of the same music they would have dismissed it as cold
and intellectual.

As for musicians, I find them among the shallowest listeners -- they
rarely listen to music which does not include their instrument(s).

-Carl

>Hi Kraig,
>
>I have your _Creation of the Worlds_ on my iPod mini and listened to
>it again this weekend. Talk about new emotions! You are to be
>commended for bringing to reality such an intense and complex vision.
>I can only imagine what an incredible effort it all must have taken --
> building and tuning the instruments, composing, performing,
>recording. Perhaps it's just my naivete, but it seems to be that
>works like yours, and microtonality in general, expand the emotional
>palette beyond Bartok and other 20th century composers as much as
>they expanded it beyond the Romantic period. Emancipation of the
>dissonance, indeed! Or maybe I was simply finally in the right mood
>to understand your piece!

Isn't it amazing?

Kraig, is this CD still available (I thought I remember something
about you running out of copies...)?

-Carl

> As for musicians, I find them among the shallowest listeners -- they
> rarely listen to music which does not include their instrument(s).
>
> -Carl

I hope you are excepting present company from this generalization?
Though for performing musicians as a whole (as opposed to composing
musicians), my personal experience does seem to agree with yours.
Once you have technical knowledge of the mechanics of a certain
instrument, it is all too easy to lose the simple pleasure of "just
listening" to the complexities of analysis. Sometimes I wish I could
unlearn all my musical knowledge just for a day so I could remember
what it was like to hear music from an "outsider's" perspective....

>> As for musicians, I find them among the shallowest listeners -- they
>> rarely listen to music which does not include their instrument(s).
>>
>> -Carl
>
>I hope you are excepting present company from this generalization?

I think so, yes.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> As for musicians, I find them among the shallowest listeners -- they
> rarely listen to music which does not include their instrument(s).
>
> -Carl

Well, let's see . . . the good majority of my jazz, classical, avant-
garde, and microtonal CDs have no guitar, not to mention all the non-
Western stuff in my collection . . . that leaves all the rock stuff,
but that would be shallow even if I didn't play guitar :)

hey paul-

>There are quite a few universals in human communication

and universals in music would be...? I suppose one might equate many
events/second with "excitement" or kinetic energy, but beyond that?

Dante

Thanks for directions to this quote as it shows how brilliant the man was. I can say no composer impresses me as much as Igor, barely a page goes by where i haven't learned something as well as inspiration for further ideas. Conceptionally i love him also. Take Les Noces, the wedding. But the wedding is arranged and the outlook it not so good.
At one point i wanted to see who i had the most albums of, It was Stravinsky and Miles at a dead heat (31)
Like Sun Ra, he has a magical way to make 12 ET sound microtonal

Paul Erlich wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> >wrote:
>
> >
>>I'm a big Stravinsky fan.
>> >>
>
>Me too!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- got Firebird and some others on my iPod >mini . . . the stuff definitely still seems totally fresh to me.
>
>. . . and just in case this seems off-topic, read this Stravinsky >quote:
>
>http://www.72note.com/stravinsky/stravinsky.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...>
wrote:
> hey paul-
>
> >There are quite a few universals in human communication
>
> and universals in music would be...? I suppose one might equate many
> events/second with "excitement" or kinetic energy,

Well, that was Aaron's example, and I'm glad you acknowledge that it
might possibly convey something universally rather than only within
the Western musical language. Of course, to every "universal" rule
about human beings, there is an exception, and in Greek mountain
music/dancing, the music and dance actually *decelerate* as they
build in emotional intensity. But that kind of exception doesn't
disprove the possibility of innate propensities to make certain kinds
of associations in choosing one's "symbols" in communication. Pinker
talks more about this in his book . . .

> but beyond that?

Hmm . . . a topic for another day, perhaps on another list (must
sleep . . .) |-)

Thank you so much for your kind words.
And it is nice to know it can survive as an MP3.
i was blessed with some great players. ( One who became my present girlfriend Erin, probably the most melodic player and the one playing all the Indian like additive/subtractive rhythms on the vibraphone.)

Paul Erlich wrote:

>Hi Kraig,
>
>I have your _Creation of the Worlds_ on my iPod mini and listened to >it again this weekend. Talk about new emotions! You are to be >commended for bringing to reality such an intense and complex vision. >I can only imagine what an incredible effort it all must have taken --
> building and tuning the instruments, composing, performing, >recording. Perhaps it's just my naivete, but it seems to be that >works like yours, and microtonality in general, expand the emotional >palette beyond Bartok and other 20th century composers as much as >they expanded it beyond the Romantic period. Emancipation of the >dissonance, indeed! Or maybe I was simply finally in the right mood >to understand your piece!
>
>-Paul
>
>
> >
--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

On Monday 28 February 2005 01:27 am, Aaron K. Johnson wrote:
> On Sunday 27 February 2005 11:01 pm, Kraig Grady wrote:
> > Thanks for directions to this quote as it shows how brilliant the man
> > was. I can say no composer impresses me as much as Igor, barely a page
> > goes by where i haven't learned something as well as inspiration for
> > further ideas. Conceptionally i love him also. Take Les Noces, the
> > wedding. But the wedding is arranged and the outlook it not so good.
> > At one point i wanted to see who i had the most albums of, It was
> > Stravinsky and Miles at a dead heat (31)
> > Like Sun Ra, he has a magical way to make 12 ET sound microtonal
>
> Kraig,
> Your musical tastes are right on. Throw Bartok, Mompou, Takemitsu, Xenakis,
> John Adams, Sibelius, Chopin, Milhaud, Beethoven, early a-cappela music,
> electronic stuff like Wendy Carlos and Subotnick in there and I think we
> are in the same universe.

....and I didn't mean to leave out Bach, and Debussy and Ravel, who are a
fountainhead, even though I'm becoming less and less interested in the
standard composers and becoming more attracted to 'rarer' finds like Mompou,
or Alkan for instance.

Man, there's *so* much good music out there, when you know where to look, it's
maddening....an embarassment of riches. We don't have time in life to hear it
all, let alone digest it.

> But really my tastes are much much wider than that, too. But yes, Les Noces
> is one of Igor's best pieces.
>
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.dividebypi.com

--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

I have conveyed this story before, but for those that missed it.
Although a thousand were made. Michael Shepard who put them out would take a small quanity at a time and they would store them at the factory until he came up with more money. It appears they were also printing porn DVD there and they owed the mob over a million dollars. they went in one day killed the owner execution style and proceeed to push over and destroy all the piles of CD and dvd still there. So only about 300- 400 made it out of the factory. Shepard is now out of the CD business.

Carl Lumma wrote:

> Kraig, is this CD still available (I thought I remember something
>
>about you running out of copies...)?
>
>-Carl
>
> >
--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

On Sunday 27 February 2005 11:01 pm, Kraig Grady wrote:
> Thanks for directions to this quote as it shows how brilliant the man
> was. I can say no composer impresses me as much as Igor, barely a page
> goes by where i haven't learned something as well as inspiration for
> further ideas. Conceptionally i love him also. Take Les Noces, the
> wedding. But the wedding is arranged and the outlook it not so good.
> At one point i wanted to see who i had the most albums of, It was
> Stravinsky and Miles at a dead heat (31)
> Like Sun Ra, he has a magical way to make 12 ET sound microtonal
>
Kraig,
Your musical tastes are right on. Throw Bartok, Mompou, Takemitsu, Xenakis,
John Adams, Sibelius, Chopin, Milhaud, Beethoven, early a-cappela music,
electronic stuff like Wendy Carlos and Subotnick in there and I think we are
in the same universe.

But really my tastes are much much wider than that, too. But yes, Les Noces is
one of Igor's best pieces.

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

I might as well throw in Jehan Alain- organ composer who only made it to 29

Aaron K. Johnson wrote:

>On Monday 28 February 2005 01:27 am, Aaron K. Johnson wrote:
> >
>>On Sunday 27 February 2005 11:01 pm, Kraig Grady wrote:
>> >>
>>> Thanks for directions to this quote as it shows how brilliant the man
>>>was. I can say no composer impresses me as much as Igor, barely a page
>>>goes by where i haven't learned something as well as inspiration for
>>>further ideas. Conceptionally i love him also. Take Les Noces, the
>>>wedding. But the wedding is arranged and the outlook it not so good.
>>> At one point i wanted to see who i had the most albums of, It was
>>>Stravinsky and Miles at a dead heat (31)
>>> Like Sun Ra, he has a magical way to make 12 ET sound microtonal
>>> >>>
>>Kraig,
>>Your musical tastes are right on. Throw Bartok, Mompou, Takemitsu, Xenakis,
>>John Adams, Sibelius, Chopin, Milhaud, Beethoven, early a-cappela music,
>>electronic stuff like Wendy Carlos and Subotnick in there and I think we
>>are in the same universe.
>> >>
>
>....and I didn't mean to leave out Bach, and Debussy and Ravel, who are a >fountainhead, even though I'm becoming less and less interested in the >standard composers and becoming more attracted to 'rarer' finds like Mompou, >or Alkan for instance.
>
>Man, there's *so* much good music out there, when you know where to look, it's >maddening....an embarassment of riches. We don't have time in life to hear it >all, let alone digest it.
>
> >
>>But really my tastes are much much wider than that, too. But yes, Les Noces
>>is one of Igor's best pieces.
>>
>>Aaron Krister Johnson
>>http://www.akjmusic.com
>>http://www.dividebypi.com
>> >>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

hi Igs,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Igliashon Jones" <igliashon@s.
..> wrote:

> Once you have technical knowledge of the mechanics of a
> certain instrument, it is all too easy to lose the simple
> pleasure of "just listening" to the complexities of analysis.
> Sometimes I wish I could unlearn all my musical knowledge
> just for a day so I could remember what it was like to
> hear music from an "outsider's" perspective....

i know exactly what you mean! i can't hear music anymore
without "seeing" the score pass before my mind's eye.

usually i'm thankful that i possess this skill, but
sometimes i complain about it because it does take something
away from the "pure feeling" kind of reception of music.

-monz

>> As for musicians, I find them among the shallowest listeners -- they
>> rarely listen to music which does not include their instrument(s).
>>
>> -Carl
>
>Well, let's see . . . the good majority of my jazz, classical, avant-
>garde, and microtonal CDs have no guitar, not to mention all the non-
>Western stuff in my collection . . . that leaves all the rock stuff,
>but that would be shallow even if I didn't play guitar :)

Tee hee. :)

-Carl

Oh my goodness! I certainly never heard that story! That's
horrible.

-Carl

>I have conveyed this story before, but for those that missed it.
> Although a thousand were made. Michael Shepard who put them out
>would take a small quanity at a time and they would store them at the
>factory until he came up with more money. It appears they were also
>printing porn DVD there and they owed the mob over a million dollars.
>they went in one day killed the owner execution style and proceeed to
>push over and destroy all the piles of CD and dvd still there. So only
>about 300- 400 made it out of the factory. Shepard is now out of the
>CD business.
>
>Carl Lumma wrote:
>
>> Kraig, is this CD still available (I thought I remember something
>>about you running out of copies...)?

>>> As for musicians, I find them among the shallowest
>>> listeners -- they rarely listen to music which does
>>> not include their instrument(s).
>>
>>I hope you are excepting present company from this
>>generalization?
>
>I think so, yes.

I think of the folks here more as composers than
musicians/players...

-Carl

On Monday 28 February 2005 10:15 am, Carl Lumma wrote:
> >>> As for musicians, I find them among the shallowest
> >>> listeners -- they rarely listen to music which does
> >>> not include their instrument(s).

This is sometimes true, yes. It's rare for a lot of classical singers
especially to be well-rounded. Pianists and conductors seem to be the most
well-informed in my experience, but there are exceptions to that too, and I
know of quite a few pianists who listen to nothing but Chopin and
Rachmaninoff and as a result strike me as underdeveloped musicians.

> >>I hope you are excepting present company from this
> >>generalization?
> >
> >I think so, yes.
>
> I think of the folks here more as composers than
> musicians/players...

I think you mean that as a complement, no?

Even then, that said, I am primarily a player, and do/have done more playing
in life than composing, mostly classical. Not bragging, but I have loads of
chops after 28 years of study and a Masters degree in piano performance from
a conservatory level university (Northwestern). Quite a few folks here are
professional players/virtuosi as well. Kraig Grady builds and plays well. Jon
is highly skilled enough percussionist to play with a large city symphony
orchestra, and played with Partch. Nothing to sneeze at. Haverstick has great
guitar chops, and so does Dan Stearns. Ditto Pete McRae and Igs and Paul
Erlich. Jon Starrett is a great bass player. You play keyboards, Carl. Kurt
Bigler gets around well on his organ. I think the non-players are in the
minority (does Prent Rodgers have fluency on an physical instrument? (we know
he's a Csound god) Prent? And I forget what Bill Sethares plays. And Gene
Ward Smith...)

If I left anyone out, my bad, sorry. Just wanted to make the point that I am
not quite sure I understand your statement. And, composers *are* musicians,
as is anyone who has anything at all to do with creating/performing/even
theorizing about music (i.e. Heinrich Schenker is a musician to me, even
though we don't tend to think of him as either a pianist or composer.).

Best,
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

On Monday 28 February 2005 01:53 am, Kraig Grady wrote:
> I might as well throw in Jehan Alain- organ composer who only made it to 29

Yes, I heard a piece of his....astonishingly original and great.

There are a lot of interesting nuggets to mine out there.

Best,
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

>> >>I hope you are excepting present company from this
>> >>generalization?
>> >
>> >I think so, yes.
>>
>> I think of the folks here more as composers than
>> musicians/players...
>
>I think you mean that as a complement, no?

Not really, just a statement of fact. In addition to
an interest in sounds and performance values that they
share with performers (including blues guitarists and
such, not just readers), composers tend to be interested
in a higher level of abstraction... or at least, they
hopefully are.

>Even then, that said, I am primarily a player,...

Yes yes, most composers have some degree of facility on at
least one instrument, and the best are virtuosi.

-Carl

You're a lucky man, Kraig! A really cool thing (don't shoot me) was
turning the volume up and down on the iPod and hearing my ear's
combinational tones come in from nowhere (they're inaudible with the
volume turned down) to dominate over everything (with the volume
turned up) and then being able to get rid of them again. Much of the
music sounds utterly different depending on the volume your ears
receive it at, and I'm guessing that you carefully considered at
least some of the simpler orders of difference tones when
constructing certain parts of this piece(?). Anyway, for those who
don't mind subjecting their ears to some very loud sounds, there
seems to be something special hiding in this music, which is totally
missing at quiet volumes.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
> Thank you so much for your kind words.
> And it is nice to know it can survive as an MP3.
> i was blessed with some great players. ( One who became my
present
> girlfriend Erin, probably the most melodic player and the one
playing
> all the Indian like additive/subtractive rhythms on the vibraphone.)
>
> Paul Erlich wrote:
>
> >Hi Kraig,
> >
> >I have your _Creation of the Worlds_ on my iPod mini and listened
to
> >it again this weekend. Talk about new emotions! You are to be
> >commended for bringing to reality such an intense and complex
vision.
> >I can only imagine what an incredible effort it all must have
taken --
> > building and tuning the instruments, composing, performing,
> >recording. Perhaps it's just my naivete, but it seems to be that
> >works like yours, and microtonality in general, expand the
emotional
> >palette beyond Bartok and other 20th century composers as much as
> >they expanded it beyond the Romantic period. Emancipation of the
> >dissonance, indeed! Or maybe I was simply finally in the right
mood
> >to understand your piece!
> >
> >-Paul
> >
> >
> >
> >
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
> ...
> George D. Secor wrote:
>
> >While that's quite true, the difference in the way Margo and Ozan
> >approach this (if I understand it correctly) is that they are able
to
> >*notate* these fine or "expressive" differences in pitch by
employing
> >tunings in which both "usual" and "alternative" pitches exist.
This
> >allows them to communicate a specific *intention*, making it much
> >less a matter of a particular performer's intuition or
interpretation.
> >

> Hi George and apologize if i take off on this tread into a
different
> direction and direct my comments more to the group as a whole .

A very fruitful direction, I see! :-)

> I was in
> no way attempting to take away from their approach. In fact it
seems to
> me this is the actual goal. the availability of such emotional
shading.
> But the problem is more complex for a variety of reasons.
>
> We tend to view the romantic era as the great period of musical
> emotional expression, yet as Bartok pointed out, the emotions to be
> expressed were limited to a few and that only in the modern period
were
> composers free to explore others that had not been touched upon.
Whereas
> others composers saw the early 20th century as a turn away from the
> emotions, he saw it as a further liberation.
>
> The problem, as i see it is that we could have a completely
open
> array of possible choices, but more often than not , it is the
actual
> pitch array, or we might say master scale that is responsible for
the
> results Ivor Derrig is a good example, although not the first of
the
> latter and the shuti system of India is a possible example of a
system
> that combines both, self containment that allows commatic
fluctuations.

I thought it was quite appropriate that you mentioned Ivor Darreg,
inasmuch as this discussion happened to remind me of his observation
that different tunings tend to impart different "moods" to the same
piece of music (or musical scale) by way of the varying melodic and
harmonic properties that result from different amounts of tempering.
I agree with those who have subsequently pointed out that more
complex tunings are capable of allowing music in simpler tunings to
be transferred to them in more than a single way, so that it would be
misleading or simplistic to characterize JI, for example, as having
a "calmer" mood than, say, 19-ET (which Ivor described as having
more "zonk" or vitality). When extended to a sufficient number of
tones, JI allows a great range of consonance to dissonance, hence
considerable range of "mood" (as the sruti system demonstrates).

However, I think Ivor began to realize this when he suggested that a
tone one degree higher could be substituted for a leading tone in 31-
ET to improve the melodic effect in certain instances (using the
first measure of a Bach fugue as an example). While it's debatable
whether 31 has small enough increments of pitch for what most of us
here would consider expressive intonation, it might very well come
across that way to someone who's never ventured beyond 12. Likewise,
circulating unequal temperaments offer variations in intonation that
allow "mood" to be varied according to one's selection of a tonic
key, so it's not necessary to have many tones/octave to exploit this
dimension of expressiveness.

But I would agree that true expressive intonation should allow one to
make commatic distinctions, which would suggest a refinement of at
least 41/octave, or better yet, 46 or 53, which allow more than one
type of neutral third (9:11 vs. 13:16).

--George

Oh my goodness Kraig! The travails of the independent musician -- and
the horrors of the underworld! Wow. I'm so sorry your CDs (and lives)
were lost!

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
> I have conveyed this story before, but for those that missed it.
> Although a thousand were made. Michael Shepard who put them out
> would take a small quanity at a time and they would store them at
the
> factory until he came up with more money. It appears they were also
> printing porn DVD there and they owed the mob over a million
dollars.
> they went in one day killed the owner execution style and proceeed
to
> push over and destroy all the piles of CD and dvd still there. So
only
> about 300- 400 made it out of the factory. Shepard is now out of
the CD
> business.
>
> Carl Lumma wrote:
>
> > Kraig, is this CD still available (I thought I remember something
> >
> >about you running out of copies...)?
> >
> >-Carl
> >
> >
> >
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles