Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Chris Shaffer

Hey, I recognize that Harry Partch t-shirt (thanks Jon)!

So, does anyone know of a maker of steel-string microtonal guitars
who corrects the theoretical fret positions to account for the
tension of deflecting the string down to the fret (particularly the
first few frets) -- either through a compensated nut, or otherwise?
I've found the effect to be quite significant on my acoustic
guitar . . .

-Paul

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >For anyone who might be interested, here's a nice feature on Chris
> >Shaffer the luthier who did the custom work on some of my
microtonal
> >instruments.
> >
> >http://www.station185.com/kronoson/kronoso...l%20Feature.pdf
> >
> >Chris is one of the genuinely good guys out there,thanks Chris!
>
> Is this the url you meant?
>
>
http://www.station185.com/kronoson/kronosonic/interviews/Interviews/Ch
ris%20Shaffer%20Special%20Feature.pdf
>
> -Carl

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"
<JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> C,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >I would hope any competent luthier would do that...
>
> My guess is Paul, being a guitarist, is asking this from real-world
> experience - that, as a rule, they _don't_.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

Right -- notice how Dante Rosati placed his frets when setting them
by ear:

http://users.rcn.com/dante.interport/justguitar.html

http://users.rcn.com/dante.interport/justguitar3.html

Since Dante placed his frets carefully by ear, matching the pitches
to JICalc's tones, they don't go straight across!

The guitar Wim Hoogewerf had (was it a Vigier?) allowed one to move
each fretlet to wherever one wished, independently on each string,
with a total of I think 24 fretlets per string. But that was also a
nylon-string.

One can usually get a first-order approximation to Dante's
corrections by using a compensated nut (along with adjustable
bridges, ideally six independent ones). But all the steel-string ET
and JI microtonal guitars I've seen have frets (if only partial ones)
that go straight across the strings, and do not have compensated nuts.

Thus my question. The Shrutar fretting Dave Keenan and I designed has
a lot of JI sonorities in it, but I want a guitar that actually plays
these in JI, rather than merely having the frets placed in JI
positions according the the normal calculation of dividing the string
length by the desired ratio. The problem is primarily with the first
few frets, where one must deform the string most to make it reach the
fret. On some instruments, one can actually observe a reverse-pitch
effect -- beyond a certain point, the closer to the nut one presses
the string down, the *higher* the pitch!! This is only in extreme
circumstances but a perfect demonstration of how the naive
calculation breaks down.

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

Paul Erlich wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto" ><JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> >
>>C,
>>
>>{you wrote...}
>> >>
>>>I would hope any competent luthier would do that...
>>> >>>
>>My guess is Paul, being a guitarist, is asking this from real-world >>experience - that, as a rule, they _don't_.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Jon
>> >>
>
>Right -- notice how Dante Rosati placed his frets when setting them >by ear:
>
>http://users.rcn.com/dante.interport/justguitar.html
>
>http://users.rcn.com/dante.interport/justguitar3.html
>
>Since Dante placed his frets carefully by ear, matching the pitches >to JICalc's tones, they don't go straight across!
>
>The guitar Wim Hoogewerf had (was it a Vigier?) allowed one to move >each fretlet to wherever one wished, independently on each string, >with a total of I think 24 fretlets per string. But that was also a >nylon-string.
>
>One can usually get a first-order approximation to Dante's >corrections by using a compensated nut (along with adjustable >bridges, ideally six independent ones). But all the steel-string ET >and JI microtonal guitars I've seen have frets (if only partial ones) >that go straight across the strings, and do not have compensated nuts.
>
>Thus my question. The Shrutar fretting Dave Keenan and I designed has >a lot of JI sonorities in it, but I want a guitar that actually plays >these in JI, rather than merely having the frets placed in JI >positions according the the normal calculation of dividing the string >length by the desired ratio. The problem is primarily with the first >few frets, where one must deform the string most to make it reach the >fret. On some instruments, one can actually observe a reverse-pitch >effect -- beyond a certain point, the closer to the nut one presses >the string down, the *higher* the pitch!! This is only in extreme >circumstances but a perfect demonstration of how the naive >calculation breaks down.
>
Isn't this called the rule of 9?

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

it is my understanding that caruthers does

Paul Erlich wrote:

>Hey, I recognize that Harry Partch t-shirt (thanks Jon)!
>
>So, does anyone know of a maker of steel-string microtonal guitars >who corrects the theoretical fret positions to account for the >tension of deflecting the string down to the fret (particularly the >first few frets) -- either through a compensated nut, or otherwise? >I've found the effect to be quite significant on my acoustic >guitar . . .
>
>-Paul
>
>
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >
>>>For anyone who might be interested, here's a nice feature on Chris >>>Shaffer the luthier who did the custom work on some of my >>> >>>
>microtonal > >
>>>instruments.
>>>
>>>http://www.station185.com/kronoson/kronoso...l%20Feature.pdf
>>>
>>>Chris is one of the genuinely good guys out there,thanks Chris!
>>> >>>
>>Is this the url you meant?
>>
>>
>> >>
>http://www.station185.com/kronoson/kronosonic/interviews/Interviews/Ch
>ris%20Shaffer%20Special%20Feature.pdf
> >
>>-Carl
>> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Pete McRae <petesfriedclams@...>

My Carruthers guitar is more in tune than my DX-7, but I guess that's not saying much... :-)

Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>> I bet Novax does.
>
>Maybe, but I'd doubt it without evidence.

But you're looking for an acoustic, anyway, right?

Why don't you try Harry Fleishman, John's mentor?
He'll do anything you want.

-Carl

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> wrote:
> Paul Erlich wrote:
>
> >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"
> ><JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>C,
> >>
> >>{you wrote...}
> >>
> >>
> >>>I would hope any competent luthier would do that...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>My guess is Paul, being a guitarist, is asking this from real-world
> >>experience - that, as a rule, they _don't_.
> >>
> >>Cheers,
> >>Jon
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Right -- notice how Dante Rosati placed his frets when setting them
> >by ear:
> >
> >http://users.rcn.com/dante.interport/justguitar.html
> >
> >http://users.rcn.com/dante.interport/justguitar3.html
> >
> >Since Dante placed his frets carefully by ear, matching the pitches
> >to JICalc's tones, they don't go straight across!
> >
> >The guitar Wim Hoogewerf had (was it a Vigier?) allowed one to move
> >each fretlet to wherever one wished, independently on each string,
> >with a total of I think 24 fretlets per string. But that was also a
> >nylon-string.
> >
> >One can usually get a first-order approximation to Dante's
> >corrections by using a compensated nut (along with adjustable
> >bridges, ideally six independent ones). But all the steel-string ET
> >and JI microtonal guitars I've seen have frets (if only partial ones)
> >that go straight across the strings, and do not have compensated nuts.
> >
> >Thus my question. The Shrutar fretting Dave Keenan and I designed has
> >a lot of JI sonorities in it, but I want a guitar that actually plays
> >these in JI, rather than merely having the frets placed in JI
> >positions according the the normal calculation of dividing the string
> >length by the desired ratio. The problem is primarily with the first
> >few frets, where one must deform the string most to make it reach the
> >fret. On some instruments, one can actually observe a reverse-pitch
> >effect -- beyond a certain point, the closer to the nut one presses
> >the string down, the *higher* the pitch!! This is only in extreme
> >circumstances but a perfect demonstration of how the naive
> >calculation breaks down.
> >
> Isn't this called the rule of 9?

I don't know -- what's the rule of 9? If you're placing frets to produce the ratios
4/3, 3/2, and 2/1, say, and the scale length is 60cm, how do you apply the rule
of 9 to correct the fret positions from their naive values of 45cm, 40cm, and
30cm?

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

Carruthers, huh? Do they do it with a non-straight nut, or with non-straight
frets?

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
> it is my understanding that caruthers does
>
> Paul Erlich wrote:
>
> >Hey, I recognize that Harry Partch t-shirt (thanks Jon)!
> >
> >So, does anyone know of a maker of steel-string microtonal guitars
> >who corrects the theoretical fret positions to account for the
> >tension of deflecting the string down to the fret (particularly the
> >first few frets) -- either through a compensated nut, or otherwise?
> >I've found the effect to be quite significant on my acoustic
> >guitar . . .
> >
> >-Paul
> >
> >
> >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>For anyone who might be interested, here's a nice feature on Chris
> >>>Shaffer the luthier who did the custom work on some of my
> >>>
> >>>
> >microtonal
> >
> >
> >>>instruments.
> >>>
> >>>http://www.station185.com/kronoson/kronoso...l%20Feature.pdf
> >>>
> >>>Chris is one of the genuinely good guys out there,thanks Chris!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Is this the url you meant?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >http://www.station185.com/kronoson/kronosonic/interviews/Interviews/Ch
> >ris%20Shaffer%20Special%20Feature.pdf
> >
> >
> >>-Carl
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

Paul Erlich wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> wrote:
> >
>>Paul Erlich wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto" >>><JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>>>C,
>>>>
>>>>{you wrote...}
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>>>I would hope any competent luthier would do that...
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>My guess is Paul, being a guitarist, is asking this from real-world >>>>experience - that, as a rule, they _don't_.
>>>>
>>>>Cheers,
>>>>Jon
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>Right -- notice how Dante Rosati placed his frets when setting them >>>by ear:
>>>
>>>http://users.rcn.com/dante.interport/justguitar.html
>>>
>>>http://users.rcn.com/dante.interport/justguitar3.html
>>>
>>>Since Dante placed his frets carefully by ear, matching the pitches >>>to JICalc's tones, they don't go straight across!
>>>
>>>The guitar Wim Hoogewerf had (was it a Vigier?) allowed one to move >>>each fretlet to wherever one wished, independently on each string, >>>with a total of I think 24 fretlets per string. But that was also a >>>nylon-string.
>>>
>>>One can usually get a first-order approximation to Dante's >>>corrections by using a compensated nut (along with adjustable >>>bridges, ideally six independent ones). But all the steel-string ET >>>and JI microtonal guitars I've seen have frets (if only partial ones) >>>that go straight across the strings, and do not have compensated nuts.
>>>
>>>Thus my question. The Shrutar fretting Dave Keenan and I designed has >>>a lot of JI sonorities in it, but I want a guitar that actually plays >>>these in JI, rather than merely having the frets placed in JI >>>positions according the the normal calculation of dividing the string >>>length by the desired ratio. The problem is primarily with the first >>>few frets, where one must deform the string most to make it reach the >>>fret. On some instruments, one can actually observe a reverse-pitch >>>effect -- beyond a certain point, the closer to the nut one presses >>>the string down, the *higher* the pitch!! This is only in extreme >>>circumstances but a perfect demonstration of how the naive >>>calculation breaks down.
>>>
>>> >>>
>>Isn't this called the rule of 9?
>> >>
>
>I don't know -- what's the rule of 9? If you're placing frets to produce the ratios >4/3, 3/2, and 2/1, say, and the scale length is 60cm, how do you apply the rule >of 9 to correct the fret positions from their naive values of 45cm, 40cm, and >30cm?
>
I don't know what the rule is, just what it's named.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>> Why don't you try Harry Fleishman, John's mentor?
>
>John Starrett?

Yes.

>> He'll do anything you want.
>
>But will the intonation be right?

I got the feeling everything would be right (when I
conversated with him about commissioning a guitar years
ago). Why don't you ask him?

Also, I understand the string-bending effect (I
compensated for it on my slide guitar), but could you
explain a little more what the solution(s) is/are?
You mentioned something about the nut... what would
that be?

Also, I remember a lament on the tuning list about
one-piece bridges on acoustics (vs. most electrics) but
I don't remember why they're bad.

-Carl

🔗Pete McRae <petesfriedclams@...>

Straight nut, straight frets all the way across the fingerboard, regulation 'tune-o-matic' bridge. A trade-off was accepted that the scale would be transposed on different open strings. I think he (Carruthers) has done a number of Lucy-tuned guitars with partial frets and what-not (?). But he's a professional luthier, ie "if it don't play in tune, he don't work" [sic]. I've heard "horror-stories' about repair people placing frets incorrectly, but I don't believe them. Chris Shaffer sounds to me like fun guy to work with, and probably an extraordinarily patient American. :-)

If one wants to marry a (Novax and?) Feiten-like system to a xenharmonic fretting, it might be a really good idea, but I haven't had time or need to investigate.

I read in an interview years ago that Schneider used a DX-7II to check fret-placement on the Rankin boards more-or-less (?) by ear, which apparently worked just fine for him, then, but he didn't mention who his craftsperson was.

My guitar was tuned to the Eikosany Kraig Grady was using almost exclusively at the time, and we checked my DX-7II against his instruments AND the Scalatron. The Cararruthers guitar sounds much better to me than the synth, and that's in a scale that may not be (to say the least?) well-suited to guitar timbres!

So much of guitar intonation can reside in the fingering technique of the player anyway, that a fuss over the relative competence of craftspeople could become very personal, indeed.

Paul Erlich <paul@...> wrote:

Carruthers, huh? Do they do it with a non-straight nut, or with non-straight
frets?

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady
wrote:
> it is my understanding that caruthers does
>
> Paul Erlich wrote:
>
> >Hey, I recognize that Harry Partch t-shirt (thanks Jon)!
> >
> >So, does anyone know of a maker of steel-string microtonal guitars
> >who corrects the theoretical fret positions to account for the
> >tension of deflecting the string down to the fret (particularly the
> >first few frets) -- either through a compensated nut, or otherwise?
> >I've found the effect to be quite significant on my acoustic
> >guitar . . .
> >
> >-Paul
> >
> >
> >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>For anyone who might be interested, here's a nice feature on Chris
> >>>Shaffer the luthier who did the custom work on some of my
> >>>
> >>>
> >microtonal
> >
> >
> >>>instruments.
> >>>
> >>>http://www.station185.com/kronoson/kronoso...l%20Feature.pdf
> >>>
> >>>Chris is one of the genuinely good guys out there,thanks Chris!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Is this the url you meant?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >http://www.station185.com/kronoson/kronosonic/interviews/Interviews/Ch
> >ris%20Shaffer%20Special%20Feature.pdf
> >
> >
> >>-Carl
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

i know they do not use bent frets.

Paul Erlich wrote:

>Carruthers, huh? Do they do it with a non-straight nut, or with non-straight >frets?
>
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> >wrote:
> >
>>it is my understanding that caruthers does
>>
>>Paul Erlich wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>>Hey, I recognize that Harry Partch t-shirt (thanks Jon)!
>>>
>>>So, does anyone know of a maker of steel-string microtonal guitars >>>who corrects the theoretical fret positions to account for the >>>tension of deflecting the string down to the fret (particularly the >>>first few frets) -- either through a compensated nut, or otherwise? >>>I've found the effect to be quite significant on my acoustic >>>guitar . . .
>>>
>>>-Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>>>>For anyone who might be interested, here's a nice feature on Chris >>>>>Shaffer the luthier who did the custom work on some of my >>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>microtonal >>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>>>>instruments.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.station185.com/kronoson/kronoso...l%20Feature.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>>Chris is one of the genuinely good guys out there,thanks Chris!
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>Is this the url you meant?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>http://www.station185.com/kronoson/kronosonic/interviews/Interviews/Ch
>>>ris%20Shaffer%20Special%20Feature.pdf
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>>>-Carl
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>-- >>Kraig Grady
>>North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>>The Wandering Medicine Show
>>KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

I wrote...
>>> Why don't you try Harry Fleishman, John's mentor?
>>
>>John Starrett?
>
>Yes.
>
>>> He'll do anything you want.
>>
>>But will the intonation be right?
>
>I got the feeling everything would be right (when I
>conversated with him about commissioning a guitar years
>ago). Why don't you ask him?
>
>
>Also, I understand the string-bending effect (I
>compensated for it on my slide guitar), but could you
>explain a little more what the solution(s) is/are?
>You mentioned something about the nut... what would
>that be?
>
>Also, I remember a lament on the tuning list about
>one-piece bridges on acoustics (vs. most electrics) but
>I don't remember why they're bad.

It's all coming back to me. So, wouldn't non-straight
bridge be much preferable to non-straight frets? Seems
almost anyone could make an acoustic with moveable bridges.

-Carl

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...>
wrote:

> >>Isn't this called the rule of 9?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I don't know -- what's the rule of 9? If you're placing frets to
produce the ratios
> >4/3, 3/2, and 2/1, say, and the scale length is 60cm, how do you
apply the rule
> >of 9 to correct the fret positions from their naive values of
45cm, 40cm, and
> >30cm?
> >
> I don't know what the rule is, just what it's named.

OK, thanks, Dave! I'm searching the web now . . . the first thing
that came up was, strangely, about Blackjack :)

http://renzey.casinocitytimes.com/articles/1054.html

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >> Why don't you try Harry Fleishman, John's mentor?
> >
> >John Starrett?
>
> Yes.
>
> >> He'll do anything you want.
> >
> >But will the intonation be right?
>
> I got the feeling everything would be right (when I
> conversated with him about commissioning a guitar years
> ago). Why don't you ask him?

OK, I'll e-mail John.

> Also, I understand the string-bending effect (I
> compensated for it on my slide guitar), but could you
> explain a little more what the solution(s) is/are?
> You mentioned something about the nut... what would
> that be?

The nut is moved closer to the first fret, but a different amount for
each string.

> Also, I remember a lament on the tuning list about
> one-piece bridges on acoustics (vs. most electrics) but
> I don't remember why they're bad.

Because even if you've solved the above problem with the nut, you
still need to set the actual intonation for each string. Usually this
involves matching the octave harmonic to the fretted octave, by
moving the bridge piece for the string in question. If the nut has
been compensated well for that string, then the final intonation,
across all the frets, will be corrected to a first-order
approximation.

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Pete McRae
<petesfriedclams@s...> wrote:

> So much of guitar intonation can reside in the fingering technique
>of the player anyway, that a fuss over the relative competence of
>craftspeople could become very personal, indeed.

Don't want to get personal, Pete! Both John Starrett and Freenote
have done incredible jobs for me. It's just that, since I play steel-
string acoustic guitar in a duo for hours every day now, I'm positive
that the intonation on the first fret is sharp, by different amounts
on different strings. And the first fret is precisely the place where
the fingering technique for *lowering* the pitch of a string is most
difficult to implement. Near impossible, I'd say. You have to somehow
stretch the tiny length of string behind the first fret in order to
loosen the playing part of the string -- oof.

Sorry . . . am I making sense to you?

Thanks for all the great info, and any further help would be much
appreciated.

:) Paul

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>> >> Why don't you try Harry Fleishman, John's mentor?
>> >
>> >John Starrett?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> >> He'll do anything you want.
>> >
>> >But will the intonation be right?
>>
>> I got the feeling everything would be right (when I
>> conversated with him about commissioning a guitar years
>> ago). Why don't you ask him?
>
>OK, I'll e-mail John.

Fleishman has a website, or did.

Yeah

http://www.fleishmaninstruments.com

>> Also, I understand the string-bending effect (I
>> compensated for it on my slide guitar), but could you
>> explain a little more what the solution(s) is/are?
>> You mentioned something about the nut... what would
>> that be?
>
>The nut is moved closer to the first fret, but a different amount
>for each string.
>
>> Also, I remember a lament on the tuning list about
>> one-piece bridges on acoustics (vs. most electrics) but
>> I don't remember why they're bad.
>
>Because even if you've solved the above problem with the nut, you
>still need to set the actual intonation for each string. Usually this
>involves matching the octave harmonic to the fretted octave, by
>moving the bridge piece for the string in question. If the nut has
>been compensated well for that string, then the final intonation,
>across all the frets, will be corrected to a first-order
>approximation.

So you need both...

-Carl

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...>
wrote:
> Paul Erlich wrote:
>
> >>I don't know what the rule is, just what it's named.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >OK, thanks, Dave! I'm searching the web now . . . the first thing
> >that came up was, strangely, about Blackjack :)
> >
> >http://renzey.casinocitytimes.com/articles/1054.html
> >
> >
> I coudn't find anything about the rule of 9 on the net, not the one
> we're looking
> for. Catler used to talk about it. If he knew what the rule was, he
sure
> didn't tell me.

Well, if he or anyone else could "hook me up" in this regard, since I
really want this acoustic guitar as soon as possible, I'd be highly
appreciative, and be forking over four figures for the instrument.

🔗Pete McRae <petesfriedclams@...>

Paul Erlich <paul@...> wrote:

And the first fret is precisely the place where
the fingering technique for *lowering* the pitch of a string is most
difficult to implement. Near impossible, I'd say. You have to somehow
stretch the tiny length of string behind the first fret in order to
loosen the playing part of the string -- oof.

Sorry . . . am I making sense to you?

Hi Paul,

Yes, that makes plenty of sense, to me.

All of the nuts on my guitars (including the guy playing?) seem to be carefully measured to be as low as possible and still allow for a little rowdiness. And I like high frets, which minimizes displacement, too. I have an old, old fine instrument that's 'weird' on the second fret of the low string (for some reason), and I just end up tempering it out as best I can, 'cause I can't afford to redo it, right now. If it becomes my main squeeze, you can bet it's going in for some tweaking!

It sounds to me like the nut on your guitar is just a little too high, and/or maybe the grooves are not quite the same heighth from string to string. I could imagine a compensated nut being desirable, but I'd approach my would-be repairperson with the utmost humility about it :-). As I hinted, I'll bet Buzz Feiten's thing is quite good, but I really don't know what it is (or how much it could be a boon for detwelvulators?). A really fine builder I know, who made every disclaimer to theorizing about such things, said he thought Buzzy had really gone the extra mile to make it empirical, and thus pretty convincing, to him.

Cheers,

Pete

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Pete McRae
<petesfriedclams@s...> wrote:

> As I hinted, I'll bet Buzz Feiten's thing is quite good, but I
>really don't know what it is (or how much it could be a boon for
>detwelvulators?).

I think it would be a slight boon (since bending's effects on
intonation don't really depend on the fretting in use), but Feiten's
system has some specific ~2 cent departures from 12-equal, including
some intentionally impure octaves, so a microtonalist wanting a
particular tuning system to within 1 cent might need something even
more refined. That is, assuming they don't want to rely on their
fingers to alter intonation in one direction or the other.

Thanks for keeping me respectful, Pete . . . that will be helpful
when chatting with luthiers, as I'm doing now . . .

Chris Shaffer

🔗daniel_anthony_stearns <daniel_anthony_stearns@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗daniel_anthony_stearns <daniel_anthony_stearns@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Pete McRae <petesfriedclams@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Pete McRae <petesfriedclams@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Pete McRae <petesfriedclams@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>