Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Especially for Harold: Gesualdo _Gagliarda

Margo,
Luckily I have a light day at work, so a few comments follow already:

I like that you've placed the instruments around the virtual stereo
space, and especially like the Horn imitation sound. The trumpet-ish
tone on top however has a filter on it that for me opens too slowly
(letting in the higher harmonics) to be sufficiently real.

I'm sure you didn't see my penultimate post yet, but the advice
about legato-staccato is relevant here. You should also rest between
each phrase--remove some tone sustain and add an equivalent length
of silence, ca. eighth or quarter rest for each if the music was in
4-4.

I'll venture some guesses about the tuning. I think the major 3rds
vary in width according to their proximity to home key, and I also
think you're stretching the major 6ths when they resolve to octaves.
Am I right?

As for Gesualdo--he and his compatriots are of course for the late
Renaissance parallel to the Ars Subtilior in the late Medieval.

What would be interesting to hear,
and which undoubtedly occurred in some nearby parallel universe to
our own ;)
is a composer using Gesualdo-ish/Vicentino-ish chromatic harmony
(maybe the 24 of 31-tone 1/4 comma meantone like Vicentino), but
with the rhythmic subtleties of the Ars Subtilior.

Have you found this artist in your historical research ;) ? If not,
have you checked with Bill Sethares and other knowledgeable
exomusicologists?
(One hint?: if our culture, with its 5-fingered hands, adopted a 12-
tone per octave system, perhaps we must look to planets on which
humanoids or other intelligent life has 10-fingered hands or
equivalents thereof to have adopted a 24-tone system.)

Conjecturally yours,
Harold

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Margo Schulter
<mschulter@c...> wrote:
> Hello, Harold and all, and here's a very partial attempt to follow
your
> example by posting another piece of early European music, or
actually
> rather modern music by my standard, a Gagliarda by Don Carlo
Gesualdo from
> around 1600. Why don't I invite comments first on this rendition
done with
> Scala, and then say more about the tuning, with a choice of .ogg
or .mp3:
>
> <http://www.bestii.com/~mschulter/GesualdoGagliardaAJI.ogg>
> <http://www.bestii.com/~mschulter/GesualdoGagliardaAJI.mp3>
>
> Most appreciatively,
>
> Margo

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Margo Schulter <mschulter@...>

Hello, Harold and Kraig.

Please let me address your comments, and thank you for your feedback.

> Margo,

> Luckily I have a light day at work, so a few comments follow already:

> I like that you've placed the instruments around the virtual stereo
> space, and especially like the Horn imitation sound. The trumpet-ish
> tone on top however has a filter on it that for me opens too slowly
> (letting in the higher harmonics) to be sufficiently real.

These are the kind of fine points where discerning feedback is really
helpful. These are Timidity++ renditions from a Scala file using a sound
font called Personal Copy 5.1, if I'm correct.

> I'm sure you didn't see my penultimate post yet, but the advice
> about legato-staccato is relevant here. You should also rest between
> each phrase--remove some tone sustain and add an equivalent length
> of silence, ca. eighth or quarter rest for each if the music was in
> 4-4.

Yes, if I'm going to use algorithmic coding in Scala, there's no rule that
prevents me from coding creatively and borrowing part of a note value for
a timely pause -- as if there were a comma above the note to indicate a
phrase breath mark.

> I'll venture some guesses about the tuning. I think the major 3rds
> vary in width according to their proximity to home key, and I also
> think you're stretching the major 6ths when they resolve to octaves.
> Am I right?

Actually, it's possible there might be a few small and incidental
variations for reasons I'll explain, but generally this should be in
Vicentino's adaptive 5-limit JI system: two 1/4-comma meantone chains at
1/4-comma apart, producing pure vertical sonorities. The exception might
be that where a note is sustained, I might have permitted a few tempered
meantone vertical intervals and sonorities rather than shifting a
quarter-comma in mid-note -- although that might be quite acceptable since
the shift is so small. (This isn't to rule out deliberate comma shifts,
for example by a 64:63 or the equivalent as a common one I sometimes use
in a neo-medieval setting, only to say that in a Renaissance kind of
style, I tend to prefer a smoother and more "seamless" voice-leading.)

Stretching sixths before octaves is something that I'd consider a
14th-century kind of procedure, and I'll be doing it in some pieces in
that kind of style. However, for 16th-century, I tend generally to prefer
a different kind of "xenharmonic" effect used by Vicentino to get
narrower cadential semitones while keeping 5-limit sonorities (or their
meantone approximations). This is something I should post soon: best first
heard, then discussed. However, Fabio Colonna in 1618 _does_ give an
example which could be placed in a category of this kind: a meantone
diminished seventh (around 12:7) used in a major sixth to octave kind of
progression. That I should post soon too -- maybe as part of a composition
(a neat commission, thank you!).

Anyway, even if I may have treated some vertical sonorities as meantone
rather than pure 5-limit, the different shouldn't be more than 5.38 cents
or so (the amount by which the meantone minor third is smaller than 6:5,
or the meantone major sixth larger than 5:3). This assumes that I coded
correctly, and that Scala and Timidity++ produced the right pitch bends.

> As for Gesualdo--he and his compatriots are of course for the late
> Renaissance parallel to the Ars Subtilior in the late Medieval.

True: I love pieces by both Gesualdo and Monteverdi around 1600 which mix
dramatic intensity with elements of polyphonic technique.

> What would be interesting to hear,
> and which undoubtedly occurred in some nearby parallel universe to
> our own ;)

Sometimes I seem to be residing in such a place...

> is a composer using Gesualdo-ish/Vicentino-ish chromatic harmony
> (maybe the 24 of 31-tone 1/4 comma meantone like Vicentino), but
> with the rhythmic subtleties of the Ars Subtilior.

That _is_ an interesting scenario, and why not?

> Have you found this artist in your historical research ;) ? If not,
> have you checked with Bill Sethares and other knowledgeable
> exomusicologists?

Without attempting to guess what Bill might say, I could quickly comment
that Thomas Morley, for example, has some somewhat "Ars Subtilior" stuff
in his _A Plain and Easy Introduction to Practical Music_ (1597),
including things like proportions and division of a note into 5 or 7 equal
parts. Combine that with some aspects of the style of Vicentino or
Colonna, and there you have it -- or one approach to what you've proposed,
at least.

> (One hint?: if our culture, with its 5-fingered hands, adopted a 12-
> tone per octave system, perhaps we must look to planets on which
> humanoids or other intelligent life has 10-fingered hands or
> equivalents thereof to have adopted a 24-tone system.)

Well, I have ten fingers on two hands, and tend often toward 24-note
systems (just or tempered) -- but someone with ten fingers on _each_ hand
might play in them more fluidly. Again, this might be an invitation both
for me to record more in these systems, and for you or Bill or others to
design xentonal renditions of what someone with two 10-fingered hands, for
example, might play.

> Conjecturally yours,
> Harold

Thank you again both for the feedback and the ideas.

Kraig:

> that has to be the happiest Don Carlo i have heard. I guess he did this
> before his ' lets see how many different emotions we can go through in
> one phrase" very nice to hear though!

Hi, Kraig, and I find the piece rather stately -- agreeing that it's a bit
different from his intense style often noted in his madrigals and also
sacred works.

I'm not sure about the chronology: Glenn Watkins notes that some chromatic
touches suggest the style of Gesualdo, albeit I agree in a different kind
of setting than those madrigals and motets you're referring to in your
comments.

The range is Bb-A#, so it could be played on a meantone split-note
keyboard with 13 notes per octave, or the MIDI equivalent on two manuals
(Bb on one keyboard, A# on the other).

My idea was to pick something where Vicentino's adaptive JI might have a
nice effect highlighted by the more sustained sonorities.

Anyway, thanks for your response from someone who's played and appreciated
lots of world musical styles.

Most appreciatively,

Margo

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Margo Schulter
<mschulter@c...> wrote:

> Actually, it's possible there might be a few small and incidental
> variations for reasons I'll explain, but generally this should be in
> Vicentino's adaptive 5-limit JI system: two 1/4-comma meantone
chains at
> 1/4-comma apart, producing pure vertical sonorities. The exception
might
> be that where a note is sustained, I might have permitted a few
tempered
> meantone vertical intervals and sonorities rather than shifting a
> quarter-comma in mid-note -- although that might be quite
acceptable since
> the shift is so small.

I'd be curious to hear a rendition which allowed the shifting. Not to
take anything away from your terrific-sounding rendition, which was
quite a precious gift for you to offer to this list, but many of the
harmonic points of rest seemed to be accompanied by the clear beating
that is absent in pure vertical sonorities. Was that because of the
non-shifted notes, or . . .

. . . while both of Vicentino's archicembalo tuning systems of 1555
can be described as two 1/4-comma meantone chains at 1/4-comma apart,
the number of notes in each chain differs -- in the first tuning, one
chain has 31 notes and the other has 5; while in the second tuning,
the two chains are of 19 and 17 notes. Of course I learned this
information from you, Margo. So which did you mean?

More on Vicentino's second tuning of 1555:

http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/vicentino/vicentino.htm

> (This isn't to rule out deliberate comma shifts,
> for example by a 64:63 or the equivalent as a common one I
sometimes use
> in a neo-medieval setting, only to say that in a Renaissance kind of
> style, I tend to prefer a smoother and more "seamless" voice-
leading.)

To my ears, a shift of 1/4 comma is just small enough to have no
disturbing effect on the melody or on a given note's melodic
appropriateness. Shifts of 1/2 comma, meanwhile, are big enough to
sound like a performance defect when they occur in this kind of
Renaissance/Baroque context (IMHO).

> Anyway, even if I may have treated some vertical sonorities as
meantone
> rather than pure 5-limit, the different shouldn't be more than 5.38
cents
> or so (the amount by which the meantone minor third is smaller than
6:5,
> or the meantone major sixth larger than 5:3). This assumes that I
coded
> correctly, and that Scala and Timidity++ produced the right pitch
bends.

That's yet another area where the explanation for the beating
overtones may lie. It shouldn't be an embarassment to anyone that, as
pioneers in this area, many of us have sometimes failed initially to
notice discrepancies between intent and product. You might try a
very, very slow version of this piece with a timbre that has no
beating when playing a single note -- then, if a sonority is pure in
your intended rendition, you'll be able to hear fairly easily whether
or not the intent is being realized correctly.

> > is a composer using Gesualdo-ish/Vicentino-ish chromatic harmony
> > (maybe the 24 of 31-tone 1/4 comma meantone like Vicentino),

Is this some other tuning system that I missed? I don't recall such a
tuning system being connected with Vicentino.

> Without attempting to guess what Bill might say, I could quickly
comment
> that Thomas Morley, for example, has some somewhat "Ars Subtilior"
stuff
> in his _A Plain and Easy Introduction to Practical Music_ (1597),
> including things like proportions and division of a note into 5 or
7 equal
> parts.

Did you mean "division of a tone"? Or "division of a beat"?

🔗Margo Schulter <mschulter@...>

> I'd be curious to hear a rendition which allowed the shifting. Not
> to take anything away from your terrific-sounding rendition, which
> was quite a precious gift for you to offer to this list, but many of
> the harmonic points of rest seemed to be accompanied by the clear
> beating that is absent in pure vertical sonorities. Was that because
> of the non-shifted notes, or . . .

Dear Paul,

Please let me quickly acknowledge, as you have pointed out, that
getting from concept to coding to reliable implementation is not
always the simplest procedure, and I might guess that any of these
factors might be involved:

(1) Coding errors on my part;

(2) Intentional compromises of vertical intonation, possibly not
so significant here because this Gesualdo piece is mostly
note-against-note, and the dilemma I was discussing occurs
when a voice remains stationary while others move and it
would be necessary, in order to maintain vertical JI, to
shift pitches in mid-note (and thus alter the rhythm);

(3) Problems translating the desired coding into the right MIDI
note and especially pitch bend messages, or in rendering the
MIDI file to mp3 or ogg, etc.; or

(4) Timbre/tuning interactions that might cause beating effects
with accurately tuned 5-odd-limit JI sonorities.

Here there is a certain humility in admitting that I'm not sure what
could be going on myself, and in inviting any help or feedback that
others might lend.

Accordingly, I am making the available the original MIDI file for this
piece together with an ASCII text translation of the MIDI code made
with the fine utility mf2t by Piet van Oostrum (thanks for introducing
me to this program, Aaron!), and also the Scala sequence and scale
files used in generating this MIDI file, as well as the mp3 and ogg
versions already posted here:

<http://www.bestii.com/~mschulter/GesualdoGagliardaAJI.ogg>
<http://www.bestii.com/~mschulter/GesualdoGagliardaAJI.mp3>
<http://www.bestii.com/~mschulter/GesualdoGagliardaAJI.mid>
<http://www.bestii.com/~mschulter/GesualdoGagliardaAJI.mf2t>
<http://www.bestii.com/~mschulter/qcmage10.seq>
<http://www.bestii.com/~mschulter/qcm38b.scl>

A cautionary note: for some reason, MIDI instrument 20 ("Reed Organ")
is apparently obtained by coding "program 20" in the MS-DOS version of
Scala (1.41) but "program 21" in the Linux console version (1.86).
Anyway, I'd encourage people to try different MIDI instruments and see
how that affects any beating.

Paul, please let me quickly address some other questions; I'll also be
addressing the adaptive JI questions in another post.

> . . . while both of Vicentino's archicembalo tuning systems of 1555
> can be described as two 1/4-comma meantone chains at 1/4-comma
> apart, the number of notes in each chain differs -- in the first
> tuning, one chain has 31 notes and the other has 5; while in the
> second tuning, the two chains are of 19 and 17 notes. Of course I
> learned this information from you, Margo. So which did you mean?

A brief answer is that the second tuning is the relevant one here; my
Scala file <http://www.bestii.com/~mschulter/qcm38b.scl> actually
carries out Vicentino's original archicembalo design with two 19-note
manuals and 38 notes, which for this second tuning would provide two
19-note chains (he could only manage to fit in 17 notes on his upper
manual). However, Vicentino's 36-note version could handle adaptive JI
for this Gesualdo piece with a range of Bb-A#.

> > is a composer using Gesualdo-ish/Vicentino-ish chromatic harmony
> > (maybe the 24 of 31-tone 1/4 comma meantone like Vicentino),

> Is this some other tuning system that I missed? I don't recall such a
> tuning system being connected with Vicentino.

Here, if I recall correctly, Harold Fortuin and I were discussing
24-note keyboard tunings of the kind I use, and his description fits
my 24-note regular 1/4-comma meantone tuning on synthesizer (a subset
of Vicentino's first tuning).

Again, if I'm correct, Harold was creatively suggesting a style
blending "Gesualdo-ish/Vicentino-ish chromatic harmony" with some of
the rhythmic complexities of the late 14th-century era. Here I
commented that Thomas Morley (1597) in his _Plain and Easy
Introduction to Practical Music_ has a piece using rhythmic divisions
of five or seven (i.e. quintuplets or septuplets), albeit in a rather
straightforward diatonic style, I might add.

Anyway, I'm getting more into the adaptive JI beating question in another
message about Aaron's et_compose program.

Peace and love,

Margo

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Margo Schulter

> (4) Timbre/tuning interactions that might cause beating effects
> with accurately tuned 5-odd-limit JI sonorities.

Hmm . . . . As we know, in the real world, brass instruments (as well
as winds, voices, and bowed strings) produce *exactly* harmonic
partials (except for rare chaotic cases like multiphonics, etc.) --
see the Judith Brown 1996 JASA article referenced in my paper. Also,
most wavetable synths produce sounds with exact harmonic partials,
because any perfectly repeating waveform has only exactly harmonic
partials. So I doubt the sounds you were using had any systematic
inharmonicity, though please correct me if you think I'm wrong.

> Here there is a certain humility in admitting that I'm not sure what
> could be going on myself, and in inviting any help or feedback that
> others might lend.

I hope Manuel will get involved, since my past (few years ago)
experience is that Scala sequence files often don't get implemented
quite right (YMMV). A lot of it comes down to the hardware you're
using.

> > > is a composer using Gesualdo-ish/Vicentino-ish chromatic harmony
> > > (maybe the 24 of 31-tone 1/4 comma meantone like Vicentino),
>
> > Is this some other tuning system that I missed? I don't recall
such a
> > tuning system being connected with Vicentino.
>
> Here, if I recall correctly, Harold Fortuin and I were discussing
> 24-note keyboard tunings of the kind I use,

That's what I would have thought, but I didn't see your keyboard-
manual arrangements mentioned in that thread.

> and his description fits
> my 24-note regular 1/4-comma meantone tuning on synthesizer (a
subset
> of Vicentino's first tuning).

While this piece, in fact, uses the second tuning. Not sure if Harold
was aware of the distinction . . .

Peace, love, and understanding,
Paul

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

sorry about the confusion which i thought might be the case. In the case of a trombone the harmonics according to Bruce Fowler who paid a visit one time, conical shape slightly changes the harmonics when playing a series in a single position. I played him a harmonic series and he immediately recognized the difference between mine and his own instrument. It may be true that the partials are in tune in a reasonable fashion.
There is a certain question of gestalt of such intervals. If we take the example of Rhythm, in ethnomusicology they have a machine that can decipher rhythm extremely accurately and it rightfully points out that the beats very greatly. On the other hand it seem absurd to to not say the players were thinking and conceiving of the beat as even and regular.

Paul Erlich wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> >wrote:
>
> >
>>Oddly this is not my experience at all. The tubes i had made out of >>brass ( top quality and without Seams) produced way more inharmonic >>partials >> >>
>
>Kraig, I mean the partials of an actual sound out of a blown brass >instrument, not the resonances of the column of air inside it, let >alone the resonances of the metal itself when struck. These are very >important distinction and people trip up over it. These three spectra >are very different things. The third is not likely to have any >resemblance to a harmonic series whatseover, while the second will >come fairly close to it in a well-crafted trumpet, trombone, or tuba. >The first, though, is exactly harmonic, according to the most >exacting experiments and science to date.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:

> sorry about the confusion

Looks like you understood the distinction between the third spectrum
and the others, but maybe not the distinction between the first and
second spectra I mentioned.

which i thought might be the case. In the case
> of a trombone the harmonics according to Bruce Fowler who paid a
visit
> one time, conical shape slightly changes the harmonics when playing
a
> series in a single position.

Yes, this relates to the second spectrum I was speaking of -- the
spectrum of resonances -- and not the actual frequency spectrum
within a single note with is the first (and perfectly harmonic)
spectrum I was speaking of.

> I played him a harmonic series and he
> immediately recognized the difference between mine and his own
> instrument. It may be true that the partials are in tune in a
reasonable
> fashion.

This second spectrum -- that of the resonances -- only approximates
the harmonic series. The approximation was acheived through centuries
of empirical work by instrument makers, and will certainly differ
from one instrument to another. However, a *single note* produced on
any such instrument will have perfectly harmonic partials within it --
a very different question from the question of the series of notes
that can be produced by varying the lip tension with a horn in a
single position, which is I think what you were talking about here.

Especially for Harold: Gesualdo _Gagliarda_

🔗Margo Schulter <mschulter@...>

🔗harold_fortuin <harold@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Margo Schulter <mschulter@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Margo Schulter <mschulter@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>