Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic TX81z tuning dump question

From the TX81Z owners manual:

>> SYSTEM EXCLUSIVE DATA FORMAT
>> ...
>> BULK DATA MESSAGES
>>
>> The TX81Z receives and transmits 10 types of bulk data
>> message. Each has the format F0 (System Exclusive),
>> 43 (Yamaha ID number), 0n (bulk data on channel n),
>> data size (high), data size (low), data, checksum
>> (twos complement of the lower 7 bits of the sum of all
>> databytes), F7 (EOX). Some bulk data messages have
>> a 10-character ASCII header. These characters are
>> considered to be part of the data.
>> ...
>> *Micro Tune Full Kbd
>> Contents of the user full keyboard micro tune memory.
>> f = 126 "LM .. MCRTE1", data size = 256 + 10 = 266 (010Ah),
>> total size = 274
>> F0. 43. 0n. 7E. 00. 22. "LM..MCRTE1", (data). checksum. F7

on another page:

>> Micro Tune Full Bulk Data Format
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>> |address | b7 b6 b5 b4 b3 b2 b1 b0 data comment|
>> | 0 | 0 ----- MS BYTE of MCT ----- 13-108 |
>> | | 0 ----- LS BYTE of MCT ----- 0-63 C-2 (0)|
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> | 1 | C#-2 (1) |
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> | 2 | |
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> | . | |
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> | 127 |G8 (127) |
>> ----------------------------------------------------------

Because the Yahoo web interface is going to destroy the
formatting of this diagram, i've made a graphic of it here:

/makemicromusic/files/monz/yamaha-
TX81Z_microtune-full_bulk-data-format.gif

http://tinyurl.com/3u4so

finally, from the users manual:

>> DUMP REQUEST MESSAGES
>> ...
>> Micro Tune F0. 43. 2n. 7E. "LM..MCRTEx. F7 (X = 0, 1)

The "Micro Tune Full" feature of the TX81Z utilizes 768-edo,
a unit which i describe here as the "hexamu":

http://tonalsoft.com/enc/index2.htm?hexamu.htm

the "address" column in the above diagram refers to the
actual MIDI-note being played by the MIDI controller.
the total possible number of MIDI-notes which can be
addressed is 2^7 = 128, numbered from 0 to 127.
MIDI-note 0 is called "C-2" ("C negative-2") by Yamaha,
and thus MIDI-note 127 is "G8".

"MS BYTE" in the above diagram means "most significant byte",
and the data in that byte designates which 12edo semitone
falls closest to the desired pitch. theoretically, the
7 bits used in this byte for the data can designate all
semitones from 0-127 ... but Yamaha apparently limits those
values to 13-108, which corresponds to MIDI-notes C#-1 to C7.

"LS BYTE" means "least significant byte" and designates
the hexamu-value difference from the semitone value
(apparently Yamaha only uses the 6 bits which designate
0-63, without making use of the "sign" bit, so it specifies
only the number of hexamus *above* the semitone-value), which
provides the precise 768edo pitch used in the microtuning.

-monz

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
>
> hello all,
>
> i have what i think is a very simple task ... the Yamaha
> TX81z allows the user to store only one "full-keyboard"
> microtuning ... i want to dump that to my computer and
> store it on my hard-drive, so that i can dump a different
> microtuning from another TX81z onto mine.
>
> is there a free utility that will do that?
> or is it easy to write one?
>
> thanks.
>
>
> -monz

🔗Rick McGowan <rick@...>

Monz,

I looked for a long time for free utilities for the TX81Z and TX802 and
never found anything useable.

If you're up to writing a little bit of code to do this, you might check
out Tim Thompson's "KeyKit" language -- which has lots of facility with
MIDI. It shouldn't be excessively difficult. Try:

http://nosuch.com/keykit/

If you want a program that really works for dealing with synth data, try
SoundQuest "MidiQuest" product, which worked for me. I used it to do
extensive TX802 work with cartridges, microtuning, patch building, etc.

Rick

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

Rick,

{you wrote...}
>If you're up to writing a little bit of code to do this, you might check
>out Tim Thompson's "KeyKit" language -- which has lots of facility with
>MIDI. It shouldn't be excessively difficult. Try:
>
> http://nosuch.com/keykit/

Good call - I hadn't thought about Tim's environment for tools, I just use it as a musical playground. The following looks promising for older gear support - they already support the TX802 and 81Z:

http://www.jsynthlib.org/

"JSynthLib is an Open Source Universal Synthesizer Patch Editor / Librian written in the Java Language. The project aims to eventually provide support for all existing Synthesizers by providing methods and documentation which allow users to develop drivers and editors for unsupported synths and contribute them to the project."

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Rick McGowan <rick@...>

> Good call - I hadn't thought about Tim's environment for tools,
> I just use it as a musical playground.

Yeah, by the way, it occurred to me the other day that KeyKit would be a
good environment for doing microtonal stuff, such as pitch-bend re-tuning
and adaptive tuning work also. (Was just reading Sethares new chapter on
adaptive tuning.)

It might be nice to see someone write an adaptive tuning program in
KeyKit... It certainly has the facilities, and you don't have to muck with
the MIDI part of things.

> they already support the TX802 and 81Z:
> http://www.jsynthlib.org/

Oh, cool. I'll have to go look at it myself. This wasn't around when I
went looking for software support.

Rick

🔗monz <monz@...>

hi Rick (and Jon),

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rick McGowan <rick@u...> wrote:

> Monz,
>
> I looked for a long time for free utilities for the
> TX81Z and TX802 and never found anything useable.

i found several editors for Mac and Amiga, which are
totally useless to me as i'm completely a Windows guy,
and found one for Windows but it only does patch editing
(algorithms, operators, envelopes, etc.) ... there appears
to be no way to store a "performance", which is where
the TX81Z's microtuning data is.

> If you're up to writing a little bit of code to do this,

i could be, if it's not too complicated ... all i'm
looking for is a way to do this one specific thing:
save and transmit the Micro Tune Full data.

> you might check out Tim Thompson's "KeyKit" language --
> which has lots of facility with MIDI. It shouldn't be
> excessively difficult. Try:
>
> http://nosuch.com/keykit/

ok, thanks for that ... i'll have a look.

> If you want a program that really works for dealing
> with synth data, try SoundQuest "MidiQuest" product,
> which worked for me. I used it to do extensive TX802
> work with cartridges, microtuning, patch building, etc.

yes, i know about MidiQuest ... used to own a DOS version
way back in the day, and used it for my DX7II and TG-77.
it's a great application.

but since all my gear was stolen in 1996 and i've been
on Windows since then, i haven't used a newer version.

... i was really hoping, since the TX81Z seems to be so
popular with microtonalists, that someone else had already
written a small utitility for this.

-monz

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <JSZANTO@...>

Monz,

{you wrote...}
>... and found one for Windows but it only does patch editing (algorithms, >operators, envelopes, etc.) ... there appears to be no way to store a >"performance", which is where the TX81Z's microtuning data is.

Isn't this just sysex stuff? Can't you just dump this to sysex in any common midi sequencer? (I thought that is one way I used to do it, but that was when dinosaurs walked the Earth...)

>... i was really hoping, since the TX81Z seems to be so popular with >microtonalists, that someone else had already written a small utitility >for this.

Of course, that simply means that maybe 7 people still fool around with it. Nonetheless, there are still more things out there - I see "NoiZe" for the Windows platform:

http://www.terzoid.com/noize/index.html

Cheers,
Jon

🔗monz <monz@...>

hi Jon,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"
<JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> Monz,
>
> {you wrote...}
> > ... and found one for Windows but it only does
> > patch editing (algorithms, operators, envelopes, etc.)
> > ... there appears to be no way to store a "performance",
> > which is where the TX81Z's microtuning data is.
>
> Isn't this just sysex stuff? Can't you just dump this to
> sysex in any common midi sequencer? (I thought that is one
> way I used to do it, but that was when dinosaurs walked
> the Earth...)

yes, the Yamaha TX81Z Micro Tune Full data dump is a
SysEx operation ... that's precisely why i thought it
might be a short and easy-to-write application.

i took a look at KeyKit, but as with any development
environment, there's a learning curve ... and i'm already
wrapped up in something else right now.

> > ... i was really hoping, since the TX81Z seems to be
> > so popular with microtonalists, that someone else had
> > already written a small utitility for this.
>
> Of course, that simply means that maybe 7 people still
> fool around with it.
> Nonetheless, there are still more things out there -
> I see "NoiZe" for the Windows platform:
>
> http://www.terzoid.com/noize/index.html
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

thanks for that ... it's something i haven't found in
my Google searches. i've just downloaded and installed it,
and while it does give a nice easy-to-use editor for the
Micro Tune Full data (far easier to use than the TX81Z
front panel), when i tried to "fetch" the sysex dump from
the TX81Z, NoiZe didn't get any response. oh well ...

thanks anyway.

-monz

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

🔗Manuel Op de Coul <manuel.op.de.coul@...>

🔗Rick McGowan <rick@...>

🔗monz <monz@...>

hi Graham,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <gbreed@g...>
wrote:

> monz wrote:
>
> > thanks for that ... it's something i haven't found in
> > my Google searches. i've just downloaded and installed it,
> > and while it does give a nice easy-to-use editor for the
> > Micro Tune Full data (far easier to use than the TX81Z
> > front panel), when i tried to "fetch" the sysex dump from
> > the TX81Z, NoiZe didn't get any response. oh well ...
>
> Do you have the channels set up right? And if the app can't
> fetch it, can you send it manually?
>
>
> Graham

i just went thru the NoiZe help files and changed a few
settings on both the TX and the software ... but still
get nothing when i try to fetch.

what do you mean by "send it manually"?

i had already stored 72edo on the TX manually, but it's
a real pain using the front panel. i finally just got
a MIDI-to-USB box and now can try using PC editors.

-monz

🔗monz <monz@...>

hi Manuel and Rick,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Manuel Op de Coul" <manuel.op.
de.coul@e...> wrote:

>
> Perhaps a silly suggestion, but it seems you only want to save
> a tuning dump once, how about reading the 128 values from the
> display and writing them down?
>
> Manuel

my primary concern right now is to save the 72edo which i
already laboriously stored by hand onto the TX81Z, so that
i can dump a 19edo mapping onto it from another TX. so i
did have the 72edo settings calculated ahead of time and
still have them.

i just want to take advantage of the ease-of-use factor
of using a full-screen PC editor ... if i can get it to work.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rick McGowan <rick@u...> wrote:

> Monz, there's another alternative also... Unless you have
> some empirically derived tuning already in the machine that
> you desperately need to save, maybe you don't need to actually
> save them in TX81Z format.

you can see that i do want to save the 72edo i already stored.
anyway, i think i had "AutoEnable" enabled in NoiZe before i
knew what i was doing, and it already wiped out the 72edo that
i had stored. but it would still be nice to get the editor
working properly, now that i have all the MIDI connections.

>
> I believe Scala already knows how to send tuning tables to
> the TX81Z. It definitely knows about the TX802. So perhaps
> you just need to keep Scala definitions of your tunings.
>
> Rick

Manuel (or anyone who knows), can you walk me thru this if
i can do it on the TX81Z? thanks.

You all might be interested to know what i'm working on here
... Jonathan Glasier and Brink have been working a lot in
19edo at the Sonic Arts Gallery, and i want to hook up my
system at home with the same keyboard mapping they use so
that i can practice on it and do some recording with them.

the 72edo was a mapping for my Ztar.

-monz

🔗Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@...>

You can also dump the settings to cassette tape. The TX81Z came with the cable for doing so and all you need is a cheap cassette player. (I still have the cable for mine, although I haven't used the thing in 15 years, between switching to a Rayna box and European house current.)

Daniel Wolf

Rick McGowan wrote:

> Monz, there's another alternative also... Unless you have some > empirically > derived tuning already in the machine that you desperately need to save, > maybe you don't need to actually save them in TX81Z format.
>
> I believe Scala already knows how to send tuning tables to the TX81Z. It > definitely knows about the TX802. So perhaps you just need to keep Scala > definitions of your tunings.
>
> Rick