Re: [MMM] Re: On Software for JI

> From: <earth7@...>
> To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 7:51 AM
> Subject: [MMM] Re: On Software for JI
>
>
> Can I purchase a program that allows me to Compose in 12 TEQ as well
> as JI? This way I can install one program vs. two?? I've been looking
> at Cakewalk and Cubase VST 32 as 12 tone EQ sequencers but they don't
> support JI.

Hi Wally,

In addition to the answers Graham has given, I wanted to make it clear
that any regular sequencer application can be used for JI, by means of
employing pitch-bend commands on each note. This is how I do it.
It's extremely tedious and time-consuming, but it works for me, and
I haven't had the time to invest in learning Csound (which would be
a rather large investment).

I use Cakewalk myself, and its "CAL" (Cakewalk Application Language)
gives the user a way to automate some of the tedious work that sometimes
needs to be done to enhance a basic list of note-on/note-off MIDI commands.

I've written a small CAL program which I call "micro", which allows
the user to step-time enter the ratios and durations of the notes
in a JI composition.
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/micro/micro.htm

The durations are entered the way musicians normally think of them,
in terms of 8th-notes, quarter-notes, tuplets, etc., without having
to concern oneself with the "Measure.Beat.Tick" protocal demanded
by MIDI.

"Micro" is not very streamlined, and has to be run individually for
each note entered, and of course there's no real-time support. I'm
limited a lot by the 64k memory barrier my old version of Cakewalk
imposes on its CAL programs. But for my purposes it works.

You might also want to take a look at the progress made so far on
my "JustMusic" application:
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/justmusic/introtoJM.htm

This is intended to be a microtonal composition and analysis package,
incorporating the manipulation of lattice diagrams and other visual
representations of tuning math.

There's still an awful lot to be done, but this at least gives you
an idea of where I'd like to go with it.

PS - I see you using "12 TEQ" and "12 tone EQ" as abbreviations for
"12-tone equal-temperament". There have been a lot of different
abbreviations for the designation of this tuning. I used to use
"12-eq", but lately have been favoring "12-EDO" (12 equal divisions
of the octave). Some people prefer to use a more generic variant of
the latter: "12-ED2" (12 equal divisions of the 2:1 ratio). The
unstated word "logarithmically" is implicit in these "equal divisions".
But the most commonly and widely used abbreviation on these tuning
lists is "12-tET" (12-tone equal-temperament).

love / peace / harmony ...

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

earth7@... wrote:Alison, please tell me why I would want to
"cook up tunings"??? Maybe

> I need to start with exploring tunings before I write in JI??? Thanks
> for your input. It was very helpful.
>
> Thank You
> Wally
>

You're welcome. Well, the programme LMSO allows you to specify a tuning,
be it an equal temperament, or a sequence of ratios or cents. You can
repeat the tuning at the octave or indeed at any interval you want. You
then send it to your synth and play or compose. Those are the basic
features, there are many more. The cooking bit is simply the way the
programme is presented figuratively; you cook up your tuning in an oven
by adding ingredients, ie your ratios or cents.

I use it for ear training, for trying out tetrachordal stuff that
interests me and currently to model compositions for instruments that
I'm building. It's an excellent piece of software.

I'm not one to advise people on serious tuning issues as I'm only a
couple of years or so into the study myself and my mathematics is a bit
weak. I'm a composer, performer and teacher by trade and I started off
with Doty's primer. Then the excellent people on this and the main list
became my teachers and led me on. The beautiful thing is that you don't
know where you'll end up next with microtonality. It's a fascinating
journey.

Best Wishes.

----- Original Message -----
From: <earth7@...>
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 1:59 PM
Subject: [MMM] Re: On Software for JI

> Monz - I like your idea about cakewalk and have been tossing the idea
> around about purchasing the program. I believe their top of the line
> product is called "Sonar". Cubase VST32 is the competition to
> Cakewalk and is probably known worlwide for its add on features.

Well... if you intend to use my "micro.CAL", it will *have* to be with
Cakewalk. (Obviously, Cakewalk's auxilliary programming language
won't work with a competing product, unless they intended it to do
so or unless someone else has figured out how to make it so.)

But as should be clear from my previous post, you certainly don't
have to spend the big bucks to get the latest and greatest Cakewalk
product. I'm using version 2.01, from back around 1992 or so... it's
definitely a rickety old dinosaur, but it still works just fine for
my purposes.

If you visit my website, you know that I've created a lot of music
using it, and I don't even have a MIDI keyboard! I draw the notes
on the computer screen and then edit them as necessary. Tedious, yes
... but I get exactly the result I'm looking for. (except that my
new PC could use a much better soundcard)

> Id like to help you with your program called "Just Music". It sounds
> great! What programming language do you recommend I learn to help you
> with this?

That's the $64,000 question right now... I'm still not sure how to
proceed with further development of the JustMusic project, but most
likely at this point it will end up being not much more than a hot
fancy Graphical User Interface which calls Scala to do the math.
So I'm leaning towards redoing the whole project from scratch in Ada,
but those extreme measures are not really necessary.

At any rate, there's an entire Yahoo group devoted to JustMusic,
which you may join simply by sending an email requesting approval.
/justmusic

Hopefully your input can help get the project moving again.

love / peace / harmony ...

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Wally,
I HIGHLY recommend Steinbergs Cubasis program. Midi and Audio for $69 bucks.

I recommend getting alot of ram-memory to run all this new stuff.
Work up a scale, zip it into a synth, and sequence your way to musical
bliss.

Unless I'm mistaken, Csound is a synthesis program that isn't so much a
composition friendly endeavor, as it is a way to tune and create timbres. I
could be wrong, never having used it.

I met a woman this year from Australia who sampled glasses filled with
water, and she tuned the glass samples with Csound. Why she didn't just tune
the glasses I'll never know, but this is one thing Csound is apparantly good
at.

Good luck!

GZ

earth7@... wrote:

> Hi Jon
>
> Okay I'm convinced. I'll start with Scala and FTS (are they both
> needed?) but I would appreciate it if you can put me in touch with a
> Csound expert who is patient with beginners. I feel as I really get
> into this I'll want to learn Csound and programm my own ideas. I've
> searched the internet last night and came up with a bunch of links
> but they are basically geared towards the seasoned programmer. I'm
> even having trouble finding which version to download at the FTP
> site. There are many different versions. Csound is going to take me
> along time to learn therefore I figure I'll get up and running with
> Scala and FTS and start learning Csound on the side.
>
> Like you said, I should start with something that will get me up and
> going fast so I can get this stuff into my head!
>
> You mentioned that I should eventually get Cakewalk Sonar. What about
> their competition that is world known - Steinberg's Cubase VST32 ??
>
> Thanks
> Wally
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> > Wally,
> >
> > {you wrote...}
> > >Jon - I listened to Prent Rodgers work and found it very, very
> > >interesting.
> >
> > He makes math swing.
> >
> > >I'd like to learn C-Sound but since you say it does not
> > >resemble anything like standard music notation, then I just assume
> > >that if I want to write music on the computer I essentially have
> Two
> > >choices. 1) Write and Compose in a programming language medium like
> > >C-Sound and send the file into a score program like Finale so the
> > >piece converts to standard music notation or 2) Compose and write
> > >music using software that essentially does the conversion from
> > >programming language to standard music notation. OR I can write
> using
> > >a keyboard (controller I believe its called?) or NOT use a keyboard
> > >(C-Sound) and utilize a programming language.Is this true? This
> gets
> > >more confusing as I go along but I'm learning alot.
> >
> > Yes, it is weird until you know more about the territory. Look,
> Csound is
> > the least like traditional music writing/composition of all of your
> > previously stated possible paths. What you essentially do (correct
> me if
> > I'm wrong, friends) is prepare two different text files, one that
> defines
> > the sound resources (the "orchestra", or .orc file) and the
> instructions
> > for making the sounds (the "score", or .sco file).
> >
> > However, neither will look like any description of music you have
> ever seen
> > before! The only thing that could possibly help you, in terms of a
> > real-time feel for it, would be to use a midi-to-Csound program to
> take a
> > sequencer file that you would record and convert it to a text file
> for
> > Csound to process into a wave file to listen to.
> >
> > Yep, it is that convoluted. For many people, it is the perfect way
> to work,
> > but not for all.
> >
> > I would sincerely have you consider, for now, a modest
> keyboard/synth setup
> > and working with Scala, FTS, and/or Calkwalk, and start getting
> this stuff
> > in your ears instead of just your eyes and your head! The Cakewalk
> route
> > (now Sonar) may be a very valid way to go, but maybe moreso after
> you've
> > done some listening to what this sounds like. With Scala or FTS,
> you can
> > sit down with a keyboard and hear these harmonies and start to find
> what
> > you like (and don't like!) in the world of JI music. Or other
> tunings,
> > which you may very well be inspired to explore (Scala contains a
> very large
> > collection of tunings, and Scala and FTS work well together, after
> you
> > figure out some stuff -- and both the authors/programmers of the
> programs
> > are here to answer your questions!)
> >
> > Hey, if it were slam-dunk easy it might not have the mystery about
> it.
> > Someday read about the history of Harry Partch, who read something
> about
> > ancient Greek tunings, and ended up spending his life building
> instruments
> > and composing music just to get these intonations back into the
> world.
> > We've got it *easy* these days, we do...
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jon
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

nanom3@... wrote:

> , the difference is probably what Mary spends on cable ties in
> > a week.
> >
>
>
> Thanks Graham. I wish I were that neat that all my cables were
> properly tied and bundled.
>
> Actually cable management is not something we have discussed on this
> forum, but it is probably one of the most important subjects in
> making electronic music.
>
> The biggest lesson I've learned from my current studio is not to make
> any cables difficult to access. It really kills creativity to have to
> squeeze hands into tiny spaces and pull cables blindly....
>
> I'm playing with a design for the next studio that would be U shaped
> about 20 inches out from the wall on all sides so that cables could
> easily be accessed.
>
> Any other thoughts?
>
> Peace,
> Mary

Oh yes, years of dented head and scraped knees fiddling around with
cables from under and behind and below everything led me to my new
studio design. I set out my racks and keyboards about a third of the way
into my studio facing out, get into the back of all the patchbays and
modules no problem and then hang some nice thick curtain to screen it
off, openable at various points. This gives me a cosy space, sound
insulation and keeps the electronics away from dust from the "wood - and
metal - work department". This is all in a 6m x 6m square converted
garage.

Kind regards

nanom3@... wrote:

> Hi Everyone
>
> Thanks for some good ideas (especialy getting breakfast handed to you
> across a table . that sounds really good:-))
>
> He one day had a student of
> >his, who was somewhat autistic,
> autistic or artistic. Sounds interesting but what kind of tables did
> he use to make the rings.
>
>
> Alison you certainly are speaking from experience. Its the banged
> skull which always happens at least once no matter how often I say "I
> will remember to raise my head slowly" that has really gotten to me.
>
> How are the curtains hung. Do they separate the equipment from the
> wall, or do they actually hide the equipment so that you see only the
> desk. Sounds like an excellent idea. Are they hung off the ceiling?

The curtains separate off about 1/3 of the room, hung from the ceiling,
which is not too high in my workshop. This makes a rectangular enclosed
space within the larger room. Very snug and temple/spaceship like if
you're that way inclined. Imagine the square interior of the garage
w'shop. The big curtain, ie the long side of the rectangle, comes in at
90 degrees from the north wall, the smaller curtain at 90 degrees from
the west wall. Inside the rectangle nearly all my gear is lined up along
the longer curtainie facing east. Only the computer is against the
north wall.
The small curtain is my 'door'. The large curtain is split into two for
access to the back of the 'gubbings'. I have only to be careful not to
knock against the cables and so on from the outside of the curtain so I
protect this with a table alongside. Simple really but I have both audio
and midi patchbays to contend with and if a cable goes down I'm in and
out in minutes. No more cranial surgery.

I wonder if anyone has ever studied the replication habits
ofcables. I swear they replicate like Fibonnacci bunnies,
especiallywhen tangled around each other. However the one adapter you
actuallyneed to connect two pieces of gear at midnight has always just
goneon the endangered species list....

Do you use patchbays? Once they're in and you've sorted out normalised
from isolated points, you do nearly all your connecting from the front,
like a true Starship Commander.

Kind Regards

Do you use patchbays? Once they're in and you've sorted out normalised
from isolated points, you do nearly all your connecting from the
front,
like a true Starship Commander.

No my current studio has just kind of organically grown itself
without having much order imposed on it. I think however I will try
to find out more about patchbays , or rather, find someone who knows
how to use them, as I build the next studio.

Thanks for the curtain advice. I do like the way it sounds.

Peace,
Mary

Mary,

I just want to second, third and fourth the idea of using patchbays. If there was one element that made my setup a pleasure to use, it was finally getting a sensible patchbay setup. It was cake after that...

Cheers,
Jon