re: MIDI links, creating a microtonal keyboard, new soundclick profile

To everybody who helped out with those MIDI projects / microtonal
keybards links: Hot damn! Thanks very much to every one of you. I've
got quite a bit of homework now. You guys da best.

>>>>

It SEEMS very possible to fulfill this idea -- obviously it's been
done before, as Mr. Fortuin has shown us.

[By the way, Harold, I can't believe you went to the Hague!
Seriously, that is my dream school. I briefly had a Dutch composition
tutor who went there. I sincerely want to go there for composition, or
perhaps SONOLOGY, as you did. Maybe you could email me and tell me a
little about that place when you have time...?]

Still, I would like to create the interface (keyboard) with my hands
and friends' hands. Besides, previously designed layouts like the
Starrlabs stuff (ie, the monster with 8,000 freaking buttons) cost
about as much as Buckingham Palace.

Anyway, the information gap between building the electronics and
encoding MIDI into them is sloooowly closing up for me. I found the
CTM64 to be a good idea, although daisy-chaining many will be too
expensive. At least it is apparently possible to stack the notes up
high like the homemade MIDI pipe organ (which Carl Lumma provided the
link to) with a "merger". It would only take up a few channels -- no
big sacrifice.

One main problem I see now is getting contacts that are VELOCITY
SENSITIVE. More searching ahead.

>>>>

I started a profile on Soundclick, at Igliashon's suggestion.

http://www.soundclick.com/codroid

Hear my cheezy tunes. There is only one microtonal piece currently
available: "Hair Eaters". Enjoy ... please?

With stuff,
Stevie

Velocity is normally generated by sensing of two contact pointsper switch a
specific distance apart. You take the time interval between each contact
point to determine the velocity. I don't know of any off the shelf switches
with this type of feature.

John Loffink
The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
http://www.wavemakers-synth.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stevie Hryciw [mailto:codroid@...]
>
>
> One main problem I see now is getting contacts that are VELOCITY
> SENSITIVE. More searching ahead.
>

>Velocity is normally generated by sensing of two contact pointsper
>switch a specific distance apart. You take the time interval between
>each contact point to determine the velocity. I don't know of any
>off the shelf switches with this type of feature.

IIRC Midi Boutique has them, but I'll mention that organs have done
just fine for 1500 years with out velocity. Ditto harpsichords and
accordions. And ditto one of the most successful contemporary
keyboard instruments, the Hammond organ.

-Carl

On Friday 31 December 2004 03:35 am, Carl Lumma wrote:
> >Velocity is normally generated by sensing of two contact pointsper
> >switch a specific distance apart. You take the time interval between
> >each contact point to determine the velocity. I don't know of any
> >off the shelf switches with this type of feature.
>
> IIRC Midi Boutique has them, but I'll mention that organs have done
> just fine for 1500 years with out velocity. Ditto harpsichords and
> accordions. And ditto one of the most successful contemporary
> keyboard instruments, the Hammond organ.

All due respect to the beauties of the organ, harpsichord, etc. this lack of
velocity is probably one of the main reasons why the general public responds
to the 'personal' expressive power of the piano, and most people don't go in
throngs to organ and harpsichord recitals like they do to a piano recital.

The organ suffers less than the 'sichord from this lack due to registration.
Harpsichord grates on most ears after a 1/2 hour or less. And how long can we
take accordion seriously? Not an instrument we associate with the deepest
musical impressions! For a French cafe scene, ok.

Best,

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

I recommend the accordion music from Madagascar
and harpsichords in real life are .... psychedelic.
The instrument that is hard to take is..... guitar
except in the hand of a Rod Poole

Aaron K. Johnson wrote:

> The organ suffers less than the 'sichord from this lack due to > registration.
>
>Harpsichord grates on most ears after a 1/2 hour or less. And how long can we >take accordion seriously? Not an instrument we associate with the deepest >musical impressions! For a French cafe scene, ok.
> >
--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

>> >Velocity is normally generated by sensing of two contact pointsper
>> >switch a specific distance apart. You take the time interval between
>> >each contact point to determine the velocity. I don't know of any
>> >off the shelf switches with this type of feature.
>>
>> IIRC Midi Boutique has them, but I'll mention that organs have done
>> just fine for 1500 years with out velocity. Ditto harpsichords and
>> accordions. And ditto one of the most successful contemporary
>> keyboard instruments, the Hammond organ.
>
>All due respect to the beauties of the organ, harpsichord, etc. this
>lack of velocity is probably one of the main reasons why the general
>public responds to the 'personal' expressive power of the piano,
//
>and most people don't go in throngs to organ and harpsichord recitals
>like they do to a piano recital.

Most people won't go to a piano recital. Very few people listen to
solo piano music. And in ensembles, the B-3 and other essentially
non-velocity sensitive keyboards are probably more popular than the
piano.

-Carl

[Kraig]
> harpsichords in real life are .... psychedelic.

Yup.

[Aaron]
>>how long can we take accordion seriously? Not an instrument we
>>associate with the deepest musical impressions! For a French
>>cafe scene, ok.

I hadn't even seen this. Speak for yourself, buddy!

-Carl

Now I didn't mean to stir the turd. I just proposed velocity
sensitivity because it allows another dimension of expression, and so
possibly another dimension of musicality.

I love all those instruments! (*In fact, I play accordion and toy
piano in my band.) Yet I do think the pianoforte has a ... "different"
power becuase of its expressiveness. It can always be TURNED OFF with
MIDI, and I like having the option.

-Stevie

On Friday 31 December 2004 12:53 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
> >> >Velocity is normally generated by sensing of two contact pointsper
> >> >switch a specific distance apart. You take the time interval between
> >> >each contact point to determine the velocity. I don't know of any
> >> >off the shelf switches with this type of feature.
> >>
> >> IIRC Midi Boutique has them, but I'll mention that organs have done
> >> just fine for 1500 years with out velocity. Ditto harpsichords and
> >> accordions. And ditto one of the most successful contemporary
> >> keyboard instruments, the Hammond organ.
> >
> >All due respect to the beauties of the organ, harpsichord, etc. this
> >lack of velocity is probably one of the main reasons why the general
> >public responds to the 'personal' expressive power of the piano,
>
> //
>
> >and most people don't go in throngs to organ and harpsichord recitals
> >like they do to a piano recital.
>
> Most people won't go to a piano recital. Very few people listen to
> solo piano music.

Maybe this is true in Berkeley. Not my experience. The piano still has by far
the largest body of repertoire of Western Classical music, and this fact
alone makes it the most listened to single instrument when one considers the
Western Classical tradition.

So I don't know where you're pulling that statement from.

> And in ensembles, the B-3 and other essentially
> non-velocity sensitive keyboards are probably more popular than the
> piano.

Can you cite a statistical study of ensembles instead of vague impressions?
Even if vague impressions were the only criteria, this is certainly untrue.

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

On Friday 31 December 2004 12:50 pm, Kraig Grady wrote:
> I recommend the accordion music from Madagascar

I'll have to check this out.

> and harpsichords in real life are .... psychedelic.

I like them in relatively small doses. But give me a Clavichord or piano any
day over a harpsichord for expressive potential.

> The instrument that is hard to take is..... guitar
> except in the hand of a Rod Poole

I disagree. I love Spanish guitar, and good classical guitarists have a lot to
teach pianists about how to play Bach, etc.

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

On Friday 31 December 2004 12:55 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
> [Kraig]
>
> > harpsichords in real life are .... psychedelic.
>
> Yup.
>
> [Aaron]
>
> >>how long can we take accordion seriously? Not an instrument we
> >>associate with the deepest musical impressions! For a French
> >>cafe scene, ok.
>
> I hadn't even seen this. Speak for yourself, buddy!

The accordian strikes me as primarily a comical instrument. Not bad for what
it does, I guess. And I don't like that ever-present vibrato. I might say I
like less what it traditionally idiomatically does. If some great music were
written for it, I would first think that it was unidiomatic for it to really
move me.

But whatever, 'eye of the beholder'. To each his own.

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

Greetings,

When I was in Russia in 1978 (or so) I heard an accordionist play some
movements of Pictures at an Exhibition. There's nothing quite like the
Great Gate of Kiev on accordion:)

It seems in Soviet Russia that the instrument had a degree of seriousness
that is not present in the West. (Every parent's dream, every child's
nightmare). I wonder if some good concertos were written for it in
Russia...

BTW I played accordion when I was young. May my past transgressions be
forgiven...

All best wishes,
Gordon Rumson
Pianist, composer, author and storyteller
Music Director and Organist, St. Matthew's United Church

You know your life is unbalanced when you wash down your Valium with a Venti
Starbucks Coffee. G.R.

>
> The accordian strikes me as primarily a comical instrument. Not bad for what
> it does, I guess. And I don't like that ever-present vibrato. I might say I
> like less what it traditionally idiomatically does. If some great music were
> written for it, I would first think that it was unidiomatic for it to really
> move me.
>
> But whatever, 'eye of the beholder'. To each his own.
>
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.dividebypi.com

Greetings,

This is very interesting. I will listen. Thanks for the suggestion.

All best wishes,
Gordon Rumson
Pianist, composer, author and storyteller
Music Director and Organist, St. Matthew's United Church

Western Culture would be greatly improved if we came to treat human beings
as well as we currently treat our pets. -- Gordon Rumson

>and good classical guitarists have a lot to
> teach pianists about how to play Bach, etc.
>
>
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.dividebypi.com
>
>

Greetings,

> The piano still has by far
> the largest body of repertoire of Western Classical music, and this fact
> alone makes it the most listened to single instrument when one considers the
> Western Classical tradition.

>Aaron Krister Johnson
>http://www.akjmusic.com
>http://www.dividebypi.com

This is quite true in my estimation and it seems to me that the piano lurks
in virtually every sphere of modern music making.

Further, I rather think the design itself is stuck in our heads (like a
recurring tune) and this is what makes alternate designs difficult to
introduce.

I recall the author and researcher Mark Arnest telling me that we are likely
stuck with the piano layout for another 200 years...Please know I¹m a
pianist to the marrow, but know full well the need for an alternative -- and
wish for one (at least one, maybe many) every day!

But, I've been meaning to suggest that the keyboard design of Arthur
Fickenscher (patentedin Germany, and later in the US) might be of interest.

The Polytone (as it was called) has 60 notes to the octave with 53 different
pitches and the rest duplications. Percy Grainger knew it well and it was
probably this instrument that inspired him to take up HIS instrumental
designs in the 50s.

Fickenscher had an instrument built on this design and it has been somewhat
refurbished at the University of Virginia. I do not know for sure, but I
expect that it has not been TUNED. The exact nature of the tuning is not
clear, but I can take a guess. Fickenscher did write an article about the
instrument. I believe, though without direct proof, that the documents
about the instrument that are archived will have the answers.

All best wishes,
Gordon Rumson
Pianist, composer, author and storyteller
Music Director and Organist, St. Matthew's United Church

In my spare time I like hang-glide into active volcanoes. It¹s less
hazardous than being an at-home-parent. G.R.

Actually the accordion has quite a bit of dynamic control which, having only pump organs, i admit to a certain jealousy in this regard as well as the ability to articulate much better.
i think you can turn the vibrato off. It is like the banjo in that we tend to associate certain music with it, but the latter here i find of great potential as having a much guttsier sound than a guitar.
the former, as i mention does something quite different in Madagascar

Aaron K. Johnson wrote:

>On Friday 31 December 2004 12:55 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
> >
>>[Kraig]
>>
>> >>
>>>harpsichords in real life are .... psychedelic.
>>> >>>
>>Yup.
>>
>>[Aaron]
>>
>> >>
>>>>how long can we take accordion seriously? Not an instrument we
>>>>associate with the deepest musical impressions! For a French
>>>>cafe scene, ok.
>>>> >>>>
>>I hadn't even seen this. Speak for yourself, buddy!
>> >>
>
>The accordian strikes me as primarily a comical instrument. Not bad for what >it does, I guess. And I don't like that ever-present vibrato. I might say I >like less what it traditionally idiomatically does. If some great music were >written for it, I would first think that it was unidiomatic for it to really >move me. >
>But whatever, 'eye of the beholder'. To each his own.
>
>Aaron Krister Johnson
>http://www.akjmusic.com
>http://www.dividebypi.com
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

The accordion has a wonderful musical life outside of the Lady of Spain low-rent wedding band repertoire. Almost every region in Europe has its own repertoire, and many of those repertoires have unique keyboard layouts and timbral preferences (i.e. not every accordion in locked into vox humana voicings). Regional accordion styles in the Americas -- from Cajun to Norte~no to Argentine are well known. It is considered a classical instrument in much of Eastern Europe, and virtuosity there does not immediately mean a lack of musicality, and accordion is also taught as a "classical" instrumental subject in some conservatories in Germany and Italy. Hovhaness wrote a concerto for the instrument and Virgil Thomson's opera "Four Saints in Three Acts" features a prominent accordion. There are now a number of accordion virtuosi specializing in new (serious) music; IMHO Teodoro Anzelotti is perhaps the best. (Pauline Oliveros has played an accordion tuned in two just intonation arrays for many years in both composed and improvised settings). Add to this the rich repertoires for related instruments -- just think of English and Irish concertina music, or Argentine bandoneon (or Weill's use of Bandoneon in the original instrumentation for the Threepenny Opera, or contemporary works for bandoneon by Kagel, Mumma, Tudor or Oliveros) -- and we're talking a lot of good music.

I do have one question, though -- could there be some psychoacoustical connection between beer drinking and free-reed instruments? It's been my experience -- from fieldwork in Ireland, Germany, and Hungary -- that the duration of tolerence for a free-reed timbre is remarkably parallel to the amount of beer consumed.

Happy New Year,

Daniel Wolf

Gordon Rumson wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> When I was in Russia in 1978 (or so) I heard an accordionist play some
> movements of Pictures at an Exhibition. There's nothing quite like the
> Great Gate of Kiev on accordion:)

>> Most people won't go to a piano recital. Very few people listen to
>> solo piano music.
>
>Maybe this is true in Berkeley. Not my experience. The piano still has
>by far the largest body of repertoire of Western Classical music,

Which is a "dead" art, only slightly more popular than Latin.

-Carl

>> [Kraig]
>>
>> > harpsichords in real life are .... psychedelic.
>>
>> Yup.
>>
>> [Aaron]
>>
>> >>how long can we take accordion seriously? Not an instrument we
>> >>associate with the deepest musical impressions! For a French
>> >>cafe scene, ok.
>>
>> I hadn't even seen this. Speak for yourself, buddy!
>
>The accordian strikes me as primarily a comical instrument. Not bad for
>what it does, I guess. And I don't like that ever-present vibrato.

The accordion is incapable of vibrato.

-Carl

>Greetings,
>
>When I was in Russia in 1978 (or so) I heard an accordionist play some
>movements of Pictures at an Exhibition. There's nothing quite like
>the Great Gate of Kiev on accordion:)
>
>It seems in Soviet Russia that the instrument had a degree of
>seriousness that is not present in the West.

The Accordion was taken very seriously indeed until the 1960s.
According to one accordionist, accordion music outsold piano music
in America in the 1940s.

I'm lately listening to a Russian folk trio called, I think,
Russkoe Razdolie -- voice, balilika, and button accordion. It's
excellent, and they have one disk entirely of classical music
covers.

Stateside, very hip groups such as Modest Mouse and They Might Be
Giants employ the accordion.

-Carl

> I do have one question, though -- could there be some
psychoacoustical
> connection between beer drinking and free-reed instruments? It's
been
> my experience -- from fieldwork in Ireland, Germany, and Hungary --
that
> the duration of tolerence for a free-reed timbre is remarkably
parallel
> to the amount of beer consumed.

I think so! I find the accordion to be a perfect party instrument.
It's protable and capable of being played while standing up (and
dancing); the reedy sound is full and noisy; the chord buttons are
arranged in a way that makes 5th-based progressions easy; and probably
other reasons. It's also likely to be linked by our mental
associations, too, just like everything else in the world.

Jason Webley has many songs about drinking (older accordion songs),
and is also a big hit in Russia. jasonwebley.com(although it is no
replacement for his life-changing live act.)

But I've never seen rowdy drunken crowds at They Might Be Giants
concerts...

-Stevie

Carl Lumma wrote:

> >> Most people won't go to a piano recital. Very few people listen to
> >> solo piano music. > >
> >Maybe this is true in Berkeley. Not my experience. The piano still has
> >by far the largest body of repertoire of Western Classical music,
>
> Which is a "dead" art, only slightly more popular than Latin.
>
Mass popularity is by no means a measure of vitality or morbidity. As long as a repertoire continues to be played with a spirit of adventure, with even an audience of one, it shows signs of life. From the perspective performance practice there's no place more moribund than the so-called jazz program at North Texas or the Berklee School, or anything that manages to escape from a major pop label. On the other hand, the remarkable openings of attitudes towards performance practice that have taken place in many if not most of the traditional conservatories cannot be ignored. Too, the dramatic reassesments of the extent and limits of the classical repertoire that have taken place in the past generation are signs of a dynamism that I just don't hear in pop music.

And as to the comparison with Latin, I just don't get it. If the measure of popularity is whether or not Americans study it, then by that measure all foreign languages are unpopular in the US, as only a minority of Americans study a foreign language and only a sliver of those actually learn one with any competence. I do know, however, a good handful of of fluent American Latinists, and most of them have shared compositions with me that are witty, often wise, and innovative within the tradition. And if the latest Vatican lexicon is any indicator, contemporary Latin continues to development and fill a(n important-to-some) niche as a legal standard. And the audience for piano recitals -- Franz Liszt played his recitals in halls seating a few hundred. Nowadays, Koscis Zoltan plays his recitals in the orchestral hall at the Liszt Conservatory here in Budapest, seating a thousand or more. Always sold out. Pogorelich seldom plays before a house with an empty seat, and there are a number of pianists with similar draws. The reports of the death of the piano recital are premature.

Daniel Wolf

The instrument of Dionysis was the Aulos
Aulos is to wine what accordion is to beer

> >
>>I do have one question, though -- could there be some
>> >>
>psychoacoustical > >
>>connection between beer drinking and free-reed instruments? It's
>> >>
>been > >
>>my experience -- from fieldwork in Ireland, Germany, and Hungary --
>> >>
>that > >
>>the duration of tolerence for a free-reed timbre is remarkably
>> >>
>parallel > >
>>to the amount of beer consumed.
>> >>
--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Carl,

{you wrote...}
>Which is a "dead" art, only slightly more popular than Latin.

When your opinionating is so radically skewed as the above (as in, compare the number of piano recitals, concerts, students studying piano in a classical vein, etc, compared to current study/recitation/publication of Latin), it really colors one's impressions of your other opinions. You might personally want to advocate for the non-velocity sensitive keyboards of the world, but unless we read in a ton of sarcasm, you might want to scale back the exagerations.

BTW, the accordion playing on the latest Tin Hat Trio album is just lovely, as is the entire CD...

Cheers,
Jon

Greetings,

Thanks to all for the ideas about the accordion and its value. It's surely
a blind spot in my scarred psyche:)

However, a few days ago I started work on a new composition for flute,
clarinet, violin, Double bass and percussion. I've given each instrument
its own 'character':

Flute: All 12 tones available for use
Clarinet: 7 note mode (C# D# E F G# A B#)
Double Bass: Pentatonic
Violin: glissandi and quarter tones

It's called Egyptology and is in three movements (The Key, The Secret
Chamber and Jubilation). For my daughter who is a big fan of ancient Egypt.

All best wishes,
Gordon Rumson
Pianist, composer, author and storyteller
Music Director and Organist, St. Matthew's United Church

"This world is actually Hell mislabeled. Someone got the bar codes wrong."
G.R.

Hi Gordon!
Do you have a referance to a picture of this keyboard design?
Good luck on your piece. From what i once found out that the egyptians call their land
To-mera
meaning the land that is measured

Gordon Rumson wrote:

>Greetings,
>
> >
>>The piano still has by far
>>the largest body of repertoire of Western Classical music, and this fact
>>alone makes it the most listened to single instrument when one considers the
>>Western Classical tradition.
>> >>
>
> >
>>Aaron Krister Johnson
>>http://www.akjmusic.com
>>http://www.dividebypi.com
>> >>
>
>This is quite true in my estimation and it seems to me that the piano lurks
>in virtually every sphere of modern music making.
>
>Further, I rather think the design itself is stuck in our heads (like a
>recurring tune) and this is what makes alternate designs difficult to
>introduce.
>
>I recall the author and researcher Mark Arnest telling me that we are likely
>stuck with the piano layout for another 200 years...Please know I�m a
>pianist to the marrow, but know full well the need for an alternative -- and
>wish for one (at least one, maybe many) every day!
>
>But, I've been meaning to suggest that the keyboard design of Arthur
>Fickenscher (patentedin Germany, and later in the US) might be of interest.
>
>The Polytone (as it was called) has 60 notes to the octave with 53 different
>pitches and the rest duplications. Percy Grainger knew it well and it was
>probably this instrument that inspired him to take up HIS instrumental
>designs in the 50s.
>
>Fickenscher had an instrument built on this design and it has been somewhat
>refurbished at the University of Virginia. I do not know for sure, but I
>expect that it has not been TUNED. The exact nature of the tuning is not
>clear, but I can take a guess. Fickenscher did write an article about the
>instrument. I believe, though without direct proof, that the documents
>about the instrument that are archived will have the answers.
>
> >All best wishes,
>Gordon Rumson
>Pianist, composer, author and storyteller
>Music Director and Organist, St. Matthew's United Church
>
>In my spare time I like hang-glide into active volcanoes. It�s less
>hazardous than being an at-home-parent. G.R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

>{you wrote...}
>>Which is a "dead" art, only slightly more popular than Latin.
>
>When your opinionating is so radically skewed as the above (as in,
>compare the number of piano recitals, concerts, students studying
>piano in a classical vein, etc, compared to current study/recitation/
>publication of Latin), it really colors one's impressions of your
>other opinions. You might personally want to advocate for the non-
>velocity sensitive keyboards of the world, but unless we read in
>a ton of sarcasm, you might want to scale back the exagerations.

Jon,

I don't appreciate the tone of your remarks. But I'll try one more
time to clarify mine.

It's my job to evaluate keyboard music of all genres -- who's
listening to what. You and many of the folks on these lists exist
in a microcosm with classical music, which is thankfully (like
Latin) in no danger of extinction, but which is also an esoteric
pursuit of the few.

As to the necessity of velocity-sensitivity, it is completely
un-used in the vast majority of electric popular music.

-Carl

Greetings,

Sadly, I don't have an online reference off hand. Someone (please forgive
me for forgetting -- age) once sent me the Fickenscher patent online, but
I'm not sure where that is now. If time permits, I'll check my files for
something.

Interesting about the name of Egypt. I'll tell my daughter. _She_ probably
knows though:)

All best wishes,
Gordon Rumson
Pianist, composer, author and storyteller
Music Director and Organist, St. Matthew's United Church

It's always deeply encouraging to send out one's compositions and hear the
dull thud of them landing in oblivion. G.R.

> From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
> Reply-To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 11:13:09 -0800
> To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MMM] re: MIDI links, creating a microtonal keyboard,
> new soundclick profile
>
>
> Hi Gordon!
> Do you have a referance to a picture of this keyboard design?
> Good luck on your piece. From what i once found out that the egyptians
> call their land
> To-mera
> meaning the land that is measured
>
> Gordon Rumson wrote:
>
>> Greetings,
>>
>>
>>
>>> The piano still has by far
>>> the largest body of repertoire of Western Classical music, and this fact
>>> alone makes it the most listened to single instrument when one considers the
>>> Western Classical tradition.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Aaron Krister Johnson
>>> http://www.akjmusic.com
>>> http://www.dividebypi.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>> This is quite true in my estimation and it seems to me that the piano lurks
>> in virtually every sphere of modern music making.
>>
>> Further, I rather think the design itself is stuck in our heads (like a
>> recurring tune) and this is what makes alternate designs difficult to
>> introduce.
>>
>> I recall the author and researcher Mark Arnest telling me that we are likely
>> stuck with the piano layout for another 200 years...Please know I¹m a
>> pianist to the marrow, but know full well the need for an alternative -- and
>> wish for one (at least one, maybe many) every day!
>>
>> But, I've been meaning to suggest that the keyboard design of Arthur
>> Fickenscher (patentedin Germany, and later in the US) might be of interest.
>>
>> The Polytone (as it was called) has 60 notes to the octave with 53 different
>> pitches and the rest duplications. Percy Grainger knew it well and it was
>> probably this instrument that inspired him to take up HIS instrumental
>> designs in the 50s.
>>
>> Fickenscher had an instrument built on this design and it has been somewhat
>> refurbished at the University of Virginia. I do not know for sure, but I
>> expect that it has not been TUNED. The exact nature of the tuning is not
>> clear, but I can take a guess. Fickenscher did write an article about the
>> instrument. I believe, though without direct proof, that the documents
>> about the instrument that are archived will have the answers.
>>
>>
>> All best wishes,
>> Gordon Rumson
>> Pianist, composer, author and storyteller
>> Music Director and Organist, St. Matthew's United Church
>>
>> In my spare time I like hang-glide into active volcanoes. It¹s less
>> hazardous than being an at-home-parent. G.R.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >{you wrote...}

> As to the necessity of velocity-sensitivity, it is completely
> un-used in the vast majority of electric popular music.

Well, it's ok if that's true, but I would like to continue using it in
mine.

----

Iggs, I like the design. But I like everything! It's like a cascade. I
think the unevenly distributed octave will help immensely. Perhaps it
would lend itself to a more chord-based style of playing?

regardation,
Stevilation

Carl,

{you wrote...}
>I don't appreciate the tone of your remarks. But I'll try one more time >to clarify mine.

I needed to be bold and declamatory to point to how out of whack your comparison of piano music and Latin was. I still believe that to be true. Don't mean to be a downer, tone-wise, but if you believe what you say then you've got to accept that others may take exception.

>It's my job to evaluate keyboard music of all genres -- who's listening to >what. You and many of the folks on these lists exist in a microcosm with >classical music

Wrong. Wrongwrongwrong. I may *work* in classical music, but my activities and especially my listening wander way far afield from that microcosm. I don't happen to fit the mold you are trying to put me in, but these are the kind of misperceptions we all make from time to time.

>As to the necessity of velocity-sensitivity, it is completely un-used in >the vast majority of electric popular music.

I'm well aware of that - EDM, trance, the whole lot tends to *not* utilize it. All one need do is demo a lot of VST instruments these days to find the patch designers not programming it into the patches even when the instrument supports a myriad of ways to vary the timbre/sound/etc with velocity (among other ways). The fact that they don't use it doesn't mean it is unnecessary, it just means _that_ music isn't using it. Which is a shame, but then again most of it is not live but recorded, and the dynamics and other inflections come in the mixing.

Ig is a guitarist. I'd love to see how thrilled he would be if some malevolent fairy found a way to remove all sensitivity from the act of playing a guitar. So that each string was either on or off.

Anyhow, one would just hope that the focus for forward development was as all-encompassing as possible, instead of starting out by opting for a reduced set of parameters.

Lastly, again, didn't mean to make you smart with my tone. Really.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson"
<akjmicro@c...> wrote:
> All due respect to the beauties of the organ, harpsichord, etc.
this lack of
> velocity is probably one of the main reasons why the general public
responds
> to the 'personal' expressive power of the piano, and most people
don't go in
> throngs to organ and harpsichord recitals like they do to a piano
recital.
>
> The organ suffers less than the 'sichord from this lack due to
registration.
> Harpsichord grates on most ears after a 1/2 hour or less. And how
long can we
> take accordion seriously? Not an instrument we associate with the
deepest
> musical impressions! For a French cafe scene, ok.
>
> Best,
>
> Aaron Krister Johnson

I've been taking the accordion seriously since 1961, when I had the
opportunity to dump the convention left-hand (Stradella) system with
chord-buttons and get an instrument in which each button plays a
single note, just like the treble side (except that it was a lot
easier to learn, because the fingering patterns are the same in *all*
keys -- Ig and Stevie, please take note!!!). The result is a sort of
two-manual _portatif_ reed organ that allows me to play Bach fugues
with each note in the proper octave. With the bellows I have
immediate intimate control over dynamics, together with the
advantages of registration. I like to think of it as a sort of
acoustic synthesizer, because with it I can mimic a brass or string
section with expressiveness that would put any electronic synthesizer
to shame.

If you heard it, I think you would change your tune -- particularly
if you heard an instrument in an alternate tuning, because free reeds
are so rich in harmonics that they make the defects of 12-ET almost
painfully apparent. One reason for those off-tuned unisons in the
musette or cafe-style instrument is to cover up the beating of 12-ET
(as does the heavy vibrato of an electronic organ), but it's not
necessary that the reeds be tuned that way -- they aren't on either
of my two instruments. (BTW, that so-called ever-present vibrato,
can be turned off in most instruments simply by a change in
registration, cutting off the air to the off-tuned reeds.)

Once you think about it, you'll realize that the accordion is a much
more practical candidate for microtonality than either the organ or
piano, chiefly because of its portability. How many keyboard
instruments do you know of that could be played by a campfire in the
middle of the woods, far away from an electrical outlet?

Another advantage is that it has excellent pitch stability. However,
since it cannot be quickly retuned, once you've selected a tuning for
an accordion, you're pretty much stuck with it, so choose wisely.

I discussed some of the issues with a microtonal accordion (including
selection of a tuning) here (where I posed a challenge):

/tuning/topicId_37869.html#37930

And I gave the solution to the above challenge here:

/tuning/topicId_38076.html#38287

--George

This is all interesting....can you point me to some audio clips (mp3, ogg,
whatever)?

I might yet change my tune.

Best,
Aaron.

On Monday 03 January 2005 02:00 pm, George D. Secor wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson"
>
> <akjmicro@c...> wrote:
> > All due respect to the beauties of the organ, harpsichord, etc.
>
> this lack of
>
> > velocity is probably one of the main reasons why the general public
>
> responds
>
> > to the 'personal' expressive power of the piano, and most people
>
> don't go in
>
> > throngs to organ and harpsichord recitals like they do to a piano
>
> recital.
>
> > The organ suffers less than the 'sichord from this lack due to
>
> registration.
>
> > Harpsichord grates on most ears after a 1/2 hour or less. And how
>
> long can we
>
> > take accordion seriously? Not an instrument we associate with the
>
> deepest
>
> > musical impressions! For a French cafe scene, ok.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Aaron Krister Johnson
>
> I've been taking the accordion seriously since 1961, when I had the
> opportunity to dump the convention left-hand (Stradella) system with
> chord-buttons and get an instrument in which each button plays a
> single note, just like the treble side (except that it was a lot
> easier to learn, because the fingering patterns are the same in *all*
> keys -- Ig and Stevie, please take note!!!). The result is a sort of
> two-manual _portatif_ reed organ that allows me to play Bach fugues
> with each note in the proper octave. With the bellows I have
> immediate intimate control over dynamics, together with the
> advantages of registration. I like to think of it as a sort of
> acoustic synthesizer, because with it I can mimic a brass or string
> section with expressiveness that would put any electronic synthesizer
> to shame.
>
> If you heard it, I think you would change your tune -- particularly
> if you heard an instrument in an alternate tuning, because free reeds
> are so rich in harmonics that they make the defects of 12-ET almost
> painfully apparent. One reason for those off-tuned unisons in the
> musette or cafe-style instrument is to cover up the beating of 12-ET
> (as does the heavy vibrato of an electronic organ), but it's not
> necessary that the reeds be tuned that way -- they aren't on either
> of my two instruments. (BTW, that so-called ever-present vibrato,
> can be turned off in most instruments simply by a change in
> registration, cutting off the air to the off-tuned reeds.)
>
> Once you think about it, you'll realize that the accordion is a much
> more practical candidate for microtonality than either the organ or
> piano, chiefly because of its portability. How many keyboard
> instruments do you know of that could be played by a campfire in the
> middle of the woods, far away from an electrical outlet?
>
> Another advantage is that it has excellent pitch stability. However,
> since it cannot be quickly retuned, once you've selected a tuning for
> an accordion, you're pretty much stuck with it, so choose wisely.
>
> I discussed some of the issues with a microtonal accordion (including
> selection of a tuning) here (where I posed a challenge):
>
> /tuning/topicId_37869.html#37930
>
> And I gave the solution to the above challenge here:
>
> /tuning/topicId_38076.html#38287
>
> --George
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson"
<akjmicro@c...> wrote:
> This is all interesting....can you point me to some audio clips
(mp3, ogg,
> whatever)?
>
> I might yet change my tune.
>
> Best,
> Aaron.

Wow, it's been a very, very long time since I've put anything on tape
(so old, it would be open reel), and even that probably wouldn't
illustrate too well some of the things I mentioned. Let me dig
through what I have to see what I can come up with, and if that's not
good enough, then I'll have to record something fresh (although at
present I'm nowhere near the top of my form -- it's been almost 15
years since I've had the time to do any serious practicing). The
most serious constraint right now is limited available time, but I'll
see what I can do.

--George

> {you wrote...}
> >I don't appreciate the tone of your remarks. But I'll
> >try one more time to clarify mine.
>
> I needed to be bold and declamatory to point to how out
> of whack your comparison of piano music and Latin was.

Your remarks didn't need to be patronizing.

> I still believe that to be true.

I didn't say classical music = Latin, I said they both
qualify as "dead" artforms, and I put that in quotes at
the time IIRC.

>> It's my job to evaluate keyboard music of all genres --
>> who's listening to what. You and many of the folks on
>> these lists exist in a microcosm with classical music
>
> Wrong. Wrongwrongwrong. I may *work* in classical music,
> but my activities and especially my listening wander way
> far afield from that microcosm.

I didn't say you. There was a reply mentioning Lizst and
more obscure characters. What percentage of the population
do you think knows who Lizst was? What percentage do you
think has ever listened to one of his piano compositions
from beginning to end?

By the way, we just finished extensive reader surveys and
focus groups in three cities. Without any initial genre
bias, the conclusion re. classical music is that we shouldn't
ever discuss it if we want to reach a wide audience.

But none of this has anything to do with my point, which
is that a non-velocity-sensitive keyboard controller is
still a very nice thing to have. Is anyone besides Aaron
actually disputing this?

-Carl

Carl,

{you wrote...}
>I didn't say classical music = Latin, I said they both qualify as "dead" >artforms, and I put that in quotes at the time IIRC.

You said it was only slightly less dead than Latin, and I believe that is a gross exaggeration.

> >> It's my job to evaluate keyboard music of all genres --
> >> who's listening to what. You and many of the folks on
> >> these lists exist in a microcosm with classical music
> >
> > Wrong. Wrongwrongwrong. I may *work* in classical music,
> > but my activities and especially my listening wander way
> > far afield from that microcosm.
>
>I didn't say you.

"You and many of the folks..."

>There was a reply mentioning Lizst and more obscure characters. What >percentage of the population do you think knows who Lizst was? What >percentage do you
>think has ever listened to one of his piano compositions from beginning to >end?

More than read or write Latin. And I didn't realize ubiquity equated with importance.

>By the way, we just finished extensive reader surveys and focus groups in >three cities. Without any initial genre bias, the conclusion re. >classical music is that we shouldn't ever discuss it if we want to reach a >wide audience.

Look, your mag (if were talking about Keyboard) is a populist mag, and I wouldn't ever expect it to cater to classical players/listeners. That doesn't mean that it encompasses all facets of keyboard music, simply what is popular and current.

Your employers need to sell product.

>But none of this has anything to do with my point, which is that a >non-velocity-sensitive keyboard controller is still a very nice thing to >have. Is anyone besides Aaron actually disputing this?

And your argument didn't take my point, which was simply: why reduce, from the outset, one's options? You can unprogram velocity if you don't want it, but if the keyboard doesn't support it you can't have it. Cutting out an important part of musical expression is a reductive act.

I love organ, in many of its forms (I'm partial to vintage Farfisas), and a big fan of a lot of the various squeezeboxes, especially the bandoneon. I just happen to think new instruments should be as open to music as possible, and would always advocate such.

Cheers,
Jon

>>There was a reply mentioning Lizst and more obscure characters.
>>What percentage of the population do you think knows who Lizst was?
>>What percentage do you think has ever listened to one of his piano
>>compositions from beginning to end?
>
>More than read or write Latin. And I didn't realize ubiquity equated
>with importance.

Am I saying this?

>>But none of this has anything to do with my point, which is that a
>>non-velocity-sensitive keyboard controller is still a very nice thing to
>>have. Is anyone besides Aaron actually disputing this?
>
>And your argument didn't take my point, which was simply: why reduce,
>from the outset, one's options?

Because it's cheaper.

>I love organ, in many of its forms (I'm partial to vintage Farfisas), and
>a big fan of a lot of the various squeezeboxes, especially the bandoneon.

I'm not sure how it got entangled, but while squeeze boxes don't have
velocity-sensitive keyboards, they do offer a tremendous amount of
dynamic control via the bellows.

-Carl

> I'm not sure how it got entangled, but while squeeze boxes don't
> have velocity-sensitive keyboards, they do offer a tremendous
> amount of dynamic control via the bellows.

I (wrongly) entangled them in an earlier message.

-C.

On Tuesday 04 January 2005 01:05 am, Carl Lumma wrote:
> > {Jon Szanto wrote...}

> >
> > Wrong. Wrongwrongwrong. I may *work* in classical music,
> > but my activities and especially my listening wander way
> > far afield from that microcosm.
>
> I didn't say you. There was a reply mentioning Lizst and
> more obscure characters. What percentage of the population
> do you think knows who Lizst was? What percentage do you
> think has ever listened to one of his piano compositions
> from beginning to end?

It's a crying shame that Liszt, one of the more giant virtuosi of the 19th
century, is considered an 'obscure' figure by an associate editor of a
magazine about the art of Keyboard playing, less than 150 years after his
death in 1886. Although I'm not gaga about most of his music, I am literate
about it, which I think is important.

Liszt's legacy is traceable in not only the great classical pianists of this
generation and the previous, but also in the Jazz playing of giants like
Tatum and Peterson.

>
> By the way, we just finished extensive reader surveys and
> focus groups in three cities. Without any initial genre
> bias, the conclusion re. classical music is that we shouldn't
> ever discuss it if we want to reach a wide audience.

Sigh. This is the leadership at Keyboard magazine which turned it into such a
gear-lust superficial mag. Even sadder is that the smart and literate editors
who should know better, including you, and the elder editors there, let this
happen. As a kid growing up, I remember articles about Keith Emerson, Denny
Zeitlin, Chick Corea, etc, being next to interviews with Lorin Hollander, Ivo
Pogerelich, and articles by David Burge (for instance, one that *introduced*
me to George Crumb--who would now be considered by you 'obscure'), and they
even used to have regular columns about Classical technique and repertoire.
No more, and it's all for the almighty dollar, and the results of focus
groups. What did you expect? Ask a lot of low class illiterate types what
music they want to hear about, and they will respond only with what they
know.

I know, I know, you have to sell magazines. So mix it up! Give them what they
want, but insert a little nugget of what they don't know. Not even discuss
classical music? I can't believe this is what is going on in the board room!

Why don't we just measure all art by how much of it 'reaches' a typical
idiotic American audience, and conclude that Britney Spears or Clay Aikin or
Yanni is the zenith of Western Music? What ever happened to a magazine
seeking to enlighten instead of re-enforcing the status quo?

> But none of this has anything to do with my point, which
> is that a non-velocity-sensitive keyboard controller is
> still a very nice thing to have. Is anyone besides Aaron
> actually disputing this?

I don't even dispute it. I just said given a choice, I'd want it.

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

Aaron K. Johnson wrote:

> Liszt's legacy is traceable in not only the great classical pianists > of this
> generation and the previous, but also in the Jazz playing of giants like
> Tatum and Peterson.
>
It's even more than that -- Liszt's technical innovations are nothing less than synthesis with purely mechanical means, and -- whatever you may think about the particular notes he chose -- remain avantgarde. Rosen's discussion of Liszt's orchestration for the keyboard in "The Romantic Generation" is well worth knowing. (Isn't it ironic in the extreme that I used Liszt as an example of the world famous popular pianist, and get called out for citing something esoteric. In his time, and for a generation past his time, Lizst was near-universally acclaimed as the pianist with both the greatest technical depth but also as the pianists whose playing had the greatest spiritual or mystical qualities.)

> >
> > By the way, we just finished extensive reader surveys and
> > focus groups in three cities. Without any initial genre
> > bias, the conclusion re. classical music is that we shouldn't
> > ever discuss it if we want to reach a wide audience.
>
> Sigh. This is the leadership at Keyboard magazine which turned it into > such a
> gear-lust superficial mag. Even sadder is that the smart and literate > editors
> who should know better, including you, and the elder editors there, > let this
> happen.

I agree with everything that Aaron wrote, and probably go one step further. AFAIC, this is nothing less than the central problem with American media and American politics (aka "The Problem With Kansas") nowadays: gunning for the lowest common denominator and feeding the audience the comforts of what they already know, sugar-coated nougats of product placement. Let the public preen in front of mirrors while Baghdad burns or the best of western civ gets thrown out for the worst. If the editors had any balls (or ovaries as the case may be), or just a modicum of musical values, they'd be willing to take the heat and talk about the musical news that stays news, and suggest to their readers that there are some musical achievements out there with which they are unfamiliar, and ignorance of those achievements is just plain ignorance, not something to brag about. Or is Keyboard just trying for the Bush/Dobson/DeLay seal of approval?

DJW

Dan/Aaron,

Agree with all points regarding the slant of coverage. The only thing we must keep in mind is that there still are print magazines that cover classical keyboard information. But I, too, recall the earlier days of "Keyboard", when there was a very broad spectrum of articles. Certainly David Burge's column on contemporary keyboard music was a bright point of light.

But its a McDonalds world for a lot of people...

Cheers,
Jon

>I agree with everything that Aaron wrote, and probably go one step
>further. AFAIC, this is nothing less than the central problem with
>American media and American politics (aka "The Problem With Kansas")
>nowadays: gunning for the lowest common denominator and feeding the
>audience the comforts of what they already know, sugar-coated nougats
>of product placement. Let the public preen in front of mirrors while
>Baghdad burns or the best of western civ gets thrown out for the worst.
>If the editors had any balls (or ovaries as the case may be), or just
>a modicum of musical values, they'd be willing to take the heat and
>talk about the musical news that stays news, and suggest to their
>readers that there are some musical achievements out there with which
>they are unfamiliar, and ignorance of those achievements is just plain
>ignorance, not something to brag about. Or is Keyboard just trying
>for the Bush/Dobson/DeLay seal of approval?

I've obviously touched a nerve here, but I can't believe you guys
didn't know that classical music is a tiny microcosm. Are you
for real?

Keyboard covers more genres than any other music magazine I can
think of.

Our current mandate to increase our circulation is dangerously
lowest-common-denominator sounding. But communication is always
a compromise. If we do wind up reaching a popular audience,
we'll certainly be the geekiest, most 'classical' voice there.

-Carl

>
> As for the quality of reviews, we do everything we can to get
> around the fact that we're completely paid for by advertising
> from the companies whose products we're reviewing.
>

Greetings,

I'm sure we all know a story or two about a company threatening to pull its
ads because of a bad review.

This sort of thing makes life a misery. I feel for anyone who must operate
in such a situation.

All best wishes,
Gordon Rumson
Pianist, composer, author and storyteller
Music Director and Organist, St. Matthew's United Church

³The neutral is not the purist thing, it is the emptiest thing.² Vladislav
Kovalsky

> I've obviously touched a nerve here, but I can't believe you guys
> didn't know that classical music is a tiny microcosm. Are you
> for real?

Greetings,

No nerve on me. Last year I did a four hands concert with Vladislav
Kovalsky. Afterwards a very successful, together and intelligent business
person came up to us talking about how thrilling the concert was. Turns out
that in 50 plus years this person had never been to a piano recital.

Kovalsky just looked at me after the person left and asked how this can be?

There's just too much good tv to watch is all I can say.

All best wishes,
Gordon Rumson
Pianist, composer, author and storyteller
Music Director and Organist, St. Matthew's United Church

In my spare time I like hang-glide into active volcanoes. It¹s less
hazardous than being an at-home-parent. G.R.

Carl Lumma wrote:

>I'm cursed.
> >
I'll say. I've been in the magazine subs biz for 17 years, product fulfillment
for even longer and I'd NEVER discuss inside information about marketing strategies
with anybody outside of the company. Or outside of select individuals in circulation.

So...assuming that you still have a job in the morning, are you
going to NAMM this year? I have no desire to go back to that hell hole.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

>So...assuming that you still have a job in the morning,

Oh yeah, that's a point. Pardon me while I delete that
post from the web.

>are you going to NAMM this year? I have no desire to go
>back to that hell hole.

Yep, I'll be there.

-Carl

> >So...assuming that you still have a job in the morning,
>
> Oh yeah, that's a point. Pardon me while I delete that
> post from the web.
>
> >are you going to NAMM this year? I have no desire to go
> >back to that hell hole.
>
> Yep, I'll be there.

Speaking of old greats, our party at NAMM will (probably)
feature Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea, Joey DiFrancesco,
Tony Monaco, and BT, with vintage keys provided by Arlen's
Organism.

-Carl

> >I didn't say classical music = Latin, I said they both qualify
> >as "dead" artforms, and I put that in quotes at the time IIRC.
>
> You said it was only slightly less dead than Latin, and I
> believe that is a gross exaggeration.

That, my dear Jon, was gross cynicism.

-Carl