Microtonal Sequencers; Acoustic Guitars

Hey all, I have a few more questions that maybe you guys can help
with:

1) I am now satisfied that Cubase SL does not work well with
microtonal softsynths, at least as far as
notation/programming/editing is concerned. It is just a pain in the
ass to try to score something in 22 in the "Piano Roll" view when you
are stuck with the 12-tone octave layout. Is there a sequencer out
there that has better microtonal implementation?

2) I have also come to the conclusion that I have enough microtonal
electric guitars (22-edo, 31-edo, 15-edo in the works, and Catler
semi-JI) and I now need an acoustic. These are evidently more
difficult to refret and thus more costly, so before I shell out I
just wanted to see if anyone on this board has or knows of someone
who has an "extra" microtonal acoustic guitar they might want to
unload. I'm not particular about the tuning/temperament or about the
cosmetics; I just want a microtonal guitar I can carry around campus
with me to confuse the music majors ;-).

Thanks a bunch!

-Igliashon

Igliashon,

{you wrote...}
>1) I am now satisfied that Cubase SL does not work well with microtonal >softsynths, at least as far as notation/programming/editing is >concerned. It is just a pain in the ass to try to score something in 22 >in the "Piano Roll" view when you are stuck with the 12-tone octave layout.

No kidding. I have to think, coming from your background as a guitarist, that tactile interaction is very much a part of your music making. Even with rudimentary kbd chops, it might make more sense to find a 22tet kbd layout that makes sense to you and put stuff in that way, even if you have to enter things in step mode (or whatever Cubase might call it). I can't believe people can enter entire pieces in a paino roll format (typo intended), but I've seen it happen. Completely not for me.

>Is there a sequencer out there that has better microtonal implementation?

Not that I'm aware of. They all still stare at MIDI as 0-127 bits of info, and none of them try to wrap their heads around anything but 12tet. I think it can be still worked around, but it depends on your personality and approach to making/composing music. It would be interesting to see if someone could develop a modest microtonal sequencer with a toolbox like KeyKit - http://nosuch.com/keykit/ - but I don't have the time to do it right now.

Best of luck. I love your desire for the acoustic - rile em' up! BTW, have you considered contacting John Schneider? Whoever did his acoustics (to play the music of Lou Harrison and Harry Partch) did a beautiful job...

http://www.piercecollege.com/departments/music/facultyStaffFiles/schneider.html

http://www.bridgerecords.com/9132.htm

Say hi if you write to him!

Cheers,
Jon

Yeah, that's why I use csound, regular sequencers are
just too based on western music, with csound its a
sky's the limit setup, but it can be tedious as hell,
oh well, doing pieces with nothing but sheet music and
being deaf at the same time had to be really tedious
for Beethoven, but he managed to pull off some nice
pieces anyways :-).
--- "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@...> wrote:

>
> Igliashon,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >1) I am now satisfied that Cubase SL does not work
> well with microtonal
> >softsynths, at least as far as
> notation/programming/editing is
> >concerned. It is just a pain in the ass to try to
> score something in 22
> >in the "Piano Roll" view when you are stuck with
> the 12-tone octave layout.
>
> No kidding. I have to think, coming from your
> background as a guitarist,
> that tactile interaction is very much a part of your
> music making. Even
> with rudimentary kbd chops, it might make more sense
> to find a 22tet kbd
> layout that makes sense to you and put stuff in that
> way, even if you have
> to enter things in step mode (or whatever Cubase
> might call it). I can't
> believe people can enter entire pieces in a paino
> roll format (typo
> intended), but I've seen it happen. Completely not
> for me.
>
> >Is there a sequencer out there that has better
> microtonal implementation?
>
> Not that I'm aware of. They all still stare at MIDI
> as 0-127 bits of info,
> and none of them try to wrap their heads around
> anything but 12tet. I think
> it can be still worked around, but it depends on
> your personality and
> approach to making/composing music. It would be
> interesting to see if
> someone could develop a modest microtonal sequencer
> with a toolbox like
> KeyKit - http://nosuch.com/keykit/ - but I don't
> have the time to do it
> right now.
>
> Best of luck. I love your desire for the acoustic -
> rile em' up! BTW, have
> you considered contacting John Schneider? Whoever
> did his acoustics (to
> play the music of Lou Harrison and Harry Partch) did
> a beautiful job...
>
>
http://www.piercecollege.com/departments/music/facultyStaffFiles/schneider.html
>
> http://www.bridgerecords.com/9132.htm
>
> Say hi if you write to him!
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
>
>
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Brian,

{you wrote...}
>Yeah, that's why I use csound, regular sequencers are just too based on >western music, with csound its a sky's the limit setup, but it can be >tedious as hell,

All we need do is ask Prent - typing in all that music... :) In any event, the one thing I'm glad of is the merging of sequencing with audio recording (as in the app I use), because I tend to think of it more like just recording my part (with softsynths, etc) than literally using a sequencer.

>oh well, doing pieces with nothing but sheet music and being deaf at the >same time had to be really tedious for Beethoven, but he managed to pull >off some nice
>pieces anyways :-).

Yeah, but look: he was apparently always in a bad mood.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep"
<igliashon@s...> wrote:
>
> Hey all, I have a few more questions that maybe you guys can help
> with:
>
> 1) I am now satisfied that Cubase SL does not work well with
> microtonal softsynths, at least as far as
> notation/programming/editing is concerned. It is just a pain in the
> ass to try to score something in 22 in the "Piano Roll" view when you
> are stuck with the 12-tone octave layout. Is there a sequencer out
> there that has better microtonal implementation?

Based on what I know so far, I would separate the MIDI sequencing and
audio recording. My current setup sort of forces me to do that
anyway. My audio multitracker is AudioDesk 2.0, which has no MIDI
sequencing. The sequencing comes from either Numerology (a
performance oriented soft-sequencer inspired by analog sequencers of
the 70s), or the onboard sequencer of my Emu XL7 - either of those
trigger the notes of my synths and AudioDesk just records the audio
output of those synths.

Are you trying to produce a score for other musicians to read and
perform from? If so, I must admit that is out of my experience.

> Are you trying to produce a score for other musicians to read and
> perform from? If so, I must admit that is out of my experience.

Goodness, no! If I knew other musicians around here that played
microtonal instruments, I wouldn't need to be sequencing stuff. No,
my use of sequencers and other software are primarily just for my own
home recording of my ideas.

The problem I have is that I sequence/program note by note. All my
drum beats, bass lines, and synth accompaniments are done one note at
a time. This is bad enough when your only working in 12-tet, but
when you are using scales that are practically incompatible with the
layout ("piano roll") of your sequencer, well, it's almost not even
worth it.

So how does your sequencer do it?

Regards,
-Igliashon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep"
<igliashon@s...> wrote:
> Goodness, no! If I knew other musicians around here that played
> microtonal instruments, I wouldn't need to be sequencing stuff. No,
> my use of sequencers and other software are primarily just for my own
> home recording of my ideas.
>
> The problem I have is that I sequence/program note by note. All my
> drum beats, bass lines, and synth accompaniments are done one note at
> a time. This is bad enough when your only working in 12-tet, but
> when you are using scales that are practically incompatible with the
> layout ("piano roll") of your sequencer, well, it's almost not even
> worth it.
>
> So how does your sequencer do it?

What I first do is I set up the synths I want to use in the tuning I
want. If you're working with soft synths, you want synths that can
load tuning files in the fairly standard file formats (.scl, .tun,
etc.). That is, you want a synth that supports user tuning tables.
Such a table establishes a mapping in the synth, so incoming MIDI note
number values are mapped to the tuning's pitches. Thus, the
microtuning is done internally in the synth, instead of by MIDI pitch
bend.

Yes, the disadvantage of this method is that it is hard to tell from
the sequencer display what MIDI note number is mapped to what pitch.
MIDI note number 61 may be C# in 12t-ET, but once you change the
tuning, it will map to a different pitch. The display for Numerology,
a sequencer I use a lot, shows the notes as sliders just like the 70s
sequencers. The default range per note slider is +12 and -12, but it
can be increased. I don't know if its limited to multiples of 12 or
if the number of steps is user-assignable (say, +22 and -22 for use
with 22t-ET) - I haven't played with that feature too much. Of course
if you have a tuning like 88tET so that you use up 88 MIDI note
numbers in just one octave, you will have to use another instance (or
2, or 5, etc.) of your soft synth to cover the range that you want.
This I believe is what George was referring to.

Hope this was of some use,
Paolo