A piece of mine in 5-tet

Here is now a pre-version of a piece of mine in 5-tet. I started to
compose it inspired by the discussion on
/makemicromusic/topicId_5935.html#5945, and
for the same reason I chose the meter to be 5/8. This, apart from the
question I asked in the above thread (which, BTW, is not answered yet
- at the moment I have problems getting familiar with the 5-rhythm in
_any_ tuning, but who knows...), gave me some interesting
possibilities to vary motifs. First, Z5xZ5 being a vector space, any
two 3-element motifs whose elements are in general position can be
mapped unto each other by an affine transformation, and then arbitrary
affine transformations can be applied in the way that classical
composers use inversions and retrogrades without the result sounding
too strange. I also made heavy use of orbits, i.e. starting with a
tone and then repeatedly applying the same affine transformation until
a reached the starting point again. The patterns of the drums and the
accompaniment are mainly orbits.

The piece is not finished yet (it stops rather suddenly - which I am
planning to change), and there are also some errors in it.
But I would be interested in hearing some comments.

http://home.datacomm.ch/straub/musik/asimchomsaia1.mp3
--
Hans Straub

Hans,

This piece has a nice sound and a nice potential! My personal feeling after
years of algorithmic tinkering with music is that one needs to balance that
thinking with a more intuitive way that comes from the heart, instincts,
whatever. We can all get too brainy and attached to the symmetries of
mathematical approaches, etc.

In this instance in particular, my immediate opinion is that the drums might
serve to form a constant beat, like cycling something a bit more regular to
catch the ear and keep a regular recognizable hook going. I almost never like
the sound of chaotic drumming! Anyway, I get informational overload going a
bit into it. I sense a unity in the pitched material, motive-wise, but the
drumming sort of throws me off of its scent. That may just be a personal
taste issue though.

There's this concept that I find helpful when listening and writing (even when
I'm not successful at it: too much repetition = no information, too little
repetition = too much information, which becomes no information. So the happy
medium is what we get with truly great music. Surprise is only possible when
expectation has been set. I don't think there's an algorithm for this (yet),
chaos comes close, but in practice, all fractal music ends up sounding alike
and 'canned' if there is not a healthy dose of human-intervention style 'cut,
paste, and insert'.

Anyway, I tire of my own 5-tet funk piece, I don't think it wears well, for
the same reason, that it is more of my lazy 'automatic music' side....

But, I like what you are going for sonically....keep it up. I'm interested in
the questions you ask about meter and tuning as well. Keep asking those
explorational questions, too!

Best,
Aaron.

On Thursday 16 December 2004 06:50 am, hstraub64 wrote:
> Here is now a pre-version of a piece of mine in 5-tet. I started to
> compose it inspired by the discussion on
> /makemicromusic/topicId_5935.html#5945, and
> for the same reason I chose the meter to be 5/8. This, apart from the
> question I asked in the above thread (which, BTW, is not answered yet -
> at the moment I have problems getting familiar with the 5-rhythm in
> _any_ tuning, but who knows...), gave me some interesting possibilities
> to vary motifs. First, Z5xZ5 being a vector space, any two 3-element
> motifs whose elements are in general position can be mapped unto each
> other by an affine transformation, and then arbitrary affine
> transformations can be applied in the way that classical composers use
> inversions and retrogrades without the result sounding too strange. I
> also made heavy use of orbits, i.e. starting with a tone and then
> repeatedly applying the same affine transformation until a reached the
> starting point again. The patterns of the drums and the accompaniment
> are mainly orbits.
>
> The piece is not finished yet (it stops rather suddenly - which I am
> planning to change), and there are also some errors in it.
> But I would be interested in hearing some comments.
> http://home.datacomm.ch/straub/musik/asimchomsaia1.mp3

--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

Hans:

I actually disagree with Mr. Johnson. I found your piece to be very
organic and natural, and not chaotic at all. Perhaps this is because
I'm somewhat of a polyrhythm freak and 5 is my second-favorite
symmetrical base (next to 7), so I had no trouble following the
beat. In fact I was even nodding my head at a few parts!

One thing I might suggest though is softening the drum sounds a bit,
since your main melody instrument is also fairly percussive and thus
can make the overall rhythm feel a bit crowded. Also, it might help
to add an instrument that accompanies in a lower register, just to
fill the overall sound a bit. Other than that, I really enjoyed it!
Once it's finished I think it will be quite good.

Regards,

Igliashon Jones

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson"
<akjmicro@c...> wrote:
>
> Hans,
>
> This piece has a nice sound and a nice potential! My personal
feeling after
> years of algorithmic tinkering with music is that one needs to
balance that
> thinking with a more intuitive way that comes from the heart,
instincts,
> whatever. We can all get too brainy and attached to the symmetries
of
> mathematical approaches, etc.
>
> In this instance in particular, my immediate opinion is that the
drums might
> serve to form a constant beat, like cycling something a bit more
regular to
> catch the ear and keep a regular recognizable hook going. I almost
never like
> the sound of chaotic drumming! Anyway, I get informational overload
going a
> bit into it. I sense a unity in the pitched material, motive-wise,
but the
> drumming sort of throws me off of its scent. That may just be a
personal
> taste issue though.
>
> There's this concept that I find helpful when listening and writing
(even when
> I'm not successful at it: too much repetition = no information, too
little
> repetition = too much information, which becomes no information. So
the happy
> medium is what we get with truly great music. Surprise is only
possible when
> expectation has been set. I don't think there's an algorithm for
this (yet),
> chaos comes close, but in practice, all fractal music ends up
sounding alike
> and 'canned' if there is not a healthy dose of human-intervention
style 'cut,
> paste, and insert'.
>
> Anyway, I tire of my own 5-tet funk piece, I don't think it wears
well, for
> the same reason, that it is more of my lazy 'automatic music'
side....
>
> But, I like what you are going for sonically....keep it up. I'm
interested in
> the questions you ask about meter and tuning as well. Keep asking
those
> explorational questions, too!
>
> Best,
> Aaron.
>
> On Thursday 16 December 2004 06:50 am, hstraub64 wrote:
> > Here is now a pre-version of a piece of mine in 5-tet. I started
to
> > compose it inspired by the discussion on
> > /makemicromusic/topicId_5935.html#5945,
and
> > for the same reason I chose the meter to be 5/8. This, apart from
the
> > question I asked in the above thread (which, BTW, is not answered
yet -
> > at the moment I have problems getting familiar with the 5-rhythm
in
> > _any_ tuning, but who knows...), gave me some interesting
possibilities
> > to vary motifs. First, Z5xZ5 being a vector space, any two 3-
element
> > motifs whose elements are in general position can be mapped unto
each
> > other by an affine transformation, and then arbitrary affine
> > transformations can be applied in the way that classical
composers use
> > inversions and retrogrades without the result sounding too
strange. I
> > also made heavy use of orbits, i.e. starting with a tone and then
> > repeatedly applying the same affine transformation until a
reached the
> > starting point again. The patterns of the drums and the
accompaniment
> > are mainly orbits.
> >
> > The piece is not finished yet (it stops rather suddenly - which I
am
> > planning to change), and there are also some errors in it.
> > But I would be interested in hearing some comments.
> > http://home.datacomm.ch/straub/musik/asimchomsaia1.mp3
>
> --
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.dividebypi.com

>This piece has a nice sound and a nice potential!

Thanks!

>My personal feeling after
>years of algorithmic tinkering with music is that one needs to balance that
>thinking with a more intuitive way that comes from the heart, instincts,
>whatever. We can all get too brainy and attached to the symmetries of
>mathematical approaches, etc.

Yes yes yes! The artist must definitely be on top of the mathematician - that's
a lesson I had to learn, too! I had tried out quite a number of
transformations, and *quite* often the results did not suit in... In the same
way, BTW, a classical composer is well advised to discard a retrograde if it
does not sound well...

>
>In this instance in particular, my immediate opinion is that the drums might
>serve to form a constant beat, like cycling something a bit more regular to
>catch the ear and keep a regular recognizable hook going. I almost never like
>the sound of chaotic drumming! Anyway, I get informational overload going a
>bit into it. I sense a unity in the pitched material, motive-wise, but the
>drumming sort of throws me off of its scent. That may just be a personal
>taste issue though.
>

Hmm, the drums may indeed be a little too much in the foreground. Thanks for the
input, I will consider that.

>There's this concept that I find helpful when listening and writing (even when
>I'm not successful at it: too much repetition = no information, too little
>repetition = too much information, which becomes no information. So the happy
>medium is what we get with truly great music. Surprise is only possible when
>expectation has been set. I don't think there's an algorithm for this (yet),
>chaos comes close, but in practice, all fractal music ends up sounding alike
>and 'canned' if there is not a healthy dose of human-intervention style 'cut,
>paste, and insert'.
>
>Anyway, I tire of my own 5-tet funk piece, I don't think it wears well, for
>the same reason, that it is more of my lazy 'automatic music' side....
>
>But, I like what you are going for sonically....keep it up. I'm interested in
>the questions you ask about meter and tuning as well. Keep asking those
>explorational questions, too!

Thanks! Yes, I will definitely do that. Lately, the math is getting less
important for me than the music, but it stays a side-theme.
As for the motifs in 5-tet, it may be that nearly everything sounds related,
since 5-tet is, after all, quite extremely limited.
Writing another piece under the same premises might clear that up - and maybe
some experiments with 4-tet and 6-tet might give some insights on how the math
relates to this.
--
Hans Straub

>Hans,
>I really like this one too. I kept hoping for a nice bass marimba or
>bass gong to enter at some point 1/3 of the way through. Don't you dare
>change the ending. It is perfect.

Hmm, interesting. I'll think about it - this would make life easier... But I
still think the end is too sudden.

>I would tone down the percussion just
>a bit, since the toned instruments are so percussive. Just two or three
>low boooonnnnngggs and you're done! Let us know when.

There is indeed no real bass at the moment. Yeah, thanks! Some new ideas to
try... When the piece is finished, I will post a note, of course.

Hans Straub

Nice piece. I'd prefer if it were played on "real" instruments, but it
has a nice feel to it. I'm working on a rock song in 5-tet right now
(almost done, I'll post a link to it when it's finished).

I teach kids how to make electric guitars, and this time around we're
going to set the frets for 5 tet. The fingering on guitar is as simple
as it gets, and there are some nice chords in it too.
These are my students from last year making their guitars:
www.geocities.com/ubertar/kids

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "hstraub64" <hstraub64@t...> wrote:
>
> Here is now a pre-version of a piece of mine in 5-tet. I started to
> compose it inspired by the discussion on
> /makemicromusic/topicId_5935.html#5945, and
> for the same reason I chose the meter to be 5/8. This, apart from the
> question I asked in the above thread (which, BTW, is not answered yet
> - at the moment I have problems getting familiar with the 5-rhythm in
> _any_ tuning, but who knows...), gave me some interesting
> possibilities to vary motifs. First, Z5xZ5 being a vector space, any
> two 3-element motifs whose elements are in general position can be
> mapped unto each other by an affine transformation, and then arbitrary
> affine transformations can be applied in the way that classical
> composers use inversions and retrogrades without the result sounding
> too strange. I also made heavy use of orbits, i.e. starting with a
> tone and then repeatedly applying the same affine transformation until
> a reached the starting point again. The patterns of the drums and the
> accompaniment are mainly orbits.
>
> The piece is not finished yet (it stops rather suddenly - which I am
> planning to change), and there are also some errors in it.
> But I would be interested in hearing some comments.
>
> http://home.datacomm.ch/straub/musik/asimchomsaia1.mp3
> --
> Hans Straub

Hans,

I personally like it. To me it has an interesting "oriental" feel to it.
I'm listening to it on repeat on my computer. I am curious, did you do any
adjusting of the timbre (as described by Sethares) to allow the "instruments"
to sound better in 5-tet or did you just picks some cool sounding samples and
go at it?

Jay

On Thursday 16 December 2004 06:48 am, you wrote:
> Here is now a pre-version of a piece of mine in 5-tet. I started to
> compose it inspired by the discussion on
> [snip]
> http://home.datacomm.ch/straub/musik/asimchomsaia1.mp3

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <ubertar@y...> wrote:
>
> Nice piece. I'd prefer if it were played on "real" instruments, but
> it has a nice feel to it.
>

In theory, it is made to be played be real instruments - the sounds I
used are all simulations of natural instruments - just with no
limitation to the tuning...

> I'm working on a rock song in 5-tet right now
> (almost done, I'll post a link to it when it's finished).
>
> I teach kids how to make electric guitars, and this time around
> we're going to set the frets for 5 tet. The fingering on guitar is
> as simple as it gets, and there are some nice chords in it too.
> These are my students from last year making their guitars:
> www.geocities.com/ubertar/kids
>

Cool! I would like to have one of these...
I will be quite interested to hear the rock song.
Actually, your osting made me try to play some rock on my 5-tet tuned
keyboard, and it did indeed sound not bad! Maybe I will make one of
these, too...
--
Hans Straub

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jay Rinkel <jrinkel@h...> wrote:
> Hans,
>
> I personally like it. To me it has an interesting "oriental" feel to
>it.
> I'm listening to it on repeat on my computer. I am curious, did you
> do any adjusting of the timbre (as described by Sethares) to allow the
> "instruments" to sound better in 5-tet or did you just picks some cool
> sounding samples and go at it?
>

I just took predefined sounds of the synth. But it may be that I
unconsciously took those that match Sethares' formulas better.
Indeed I noticed that it sounds different, depending on the
instrument: the glockenspiel and the koto timbre sounded quite
"natural" to me in 5-tet while the guitar sound tended to sound
"wrong". I thought it was because of my hearing habits - but who knows...
--
Hans Straub