To Mr. Paul Erlich

Paul:

I've got Carruthers guitars making me a 22-tet neck right now
(hopefully be ready by next week, if I'm lucky), and I was wondering
if you might share some thoughts on the instrument. I've noticed
about 22 that there seem to be two approaches to tonality: the 7-
note MOS septimal diatonic scales (using Whole Tone=4 steps and
Semitone=1 step) and your own decatonic scales, which seem to lend
themselves more to the 5-limit side of things. Do you make use of
both in your playing, or do you stick mainly to the decatonics? How
do you prefer to tune the instrument? It seems as though for the
septimal diatonic approach, a tuning analogous to the "standard"
EADGBE would be ideal, whereas to get the most out of the decatonics
something more unconventional might be in order. How do YOU prefer
it? Also, do you have any pictures and/or audio files available
featuring your 22-tet guitar? I'd be quite interested.

Regards,

-Igliashon Jones

P.S. If there are any other 22-tet instrumentalists on the forum,
I'd also be interested to hear about how you approach your
instruments.

Hi Iglashion!

I'm listening to your "Vivisection of a carnivorous space plant" now,
and enjoying it greatly. A bit reminds me of Jon Catler, but I'm
reminded much more of my own free-improv group MAD DUXX's
performances at venues such as the Charles Playhouse in Boston. I
used the 22-equal guitar for that group, and there was once a short
clip of us on the web ("Tuning Punks"), but I think that's gone
now . . . :( Anyway, you successfully tranced me out in ways that I
hadn't experienced since playing with MAD DUXX years ago, thank you!

> Paul:
>
> I've got Carruthers guitars making me a 22-tet neck right now
> (hopefully be ready by next week, if I'm lucky),

Excellent! and congratulations!!

> and I was wondering
> if you might share some thoughts on the instrument. I've noticed
> about 22 that there seem to be two approaches to tonality: the 7-
> note MOS septimal diatonic scales (using Whole Tone=4 steps and
> Semitone=1 step) and your own decatonic scales, which seem to lend
> themselves more to the 5-limit side of things.

Well, firstly, I'm suprised you find the decatonic scales to lend
themselves more to the 5-limit side of things, since as you probably
know they were designed specifically to support 7-limit harmony. This
piece (prepared hastily and performed at the second Microthon)
explores the symmetrical decatonic scale, in a few different
transpositions, harmonized with 7-limit tetrads:

http://lumma.org/tuning/erlich/decatonic-swing.mp3

The septimal diatonic scales, meanwhile, are great for {2,3,7}, or 7-
limit omitting prime 5, harmony. And if you extend this chain of 22-
equal "fifths" beyond 7 notes to, say, 12 notes per octave, you start
to realize the full 7-limit potentialities (including prime 5) of
this "superpythagorean" system. Also, besides the two approaches you
mentioned, my paper _Tuning, Tonality, and Twenty-Two Tone
Temperament_ mentions a third possibility, a 7-note MOS with step
sizes 4 and 3, occuring 1 and 6 times, respectively, per octave --
supporting 5-limit or even {2,3,5,11} harmony. These non-decatonic
approches are explored in this piece (also prepared hastily and
performed at the second Microthon):

http://lumma.org/music/theory/tctmo/glassic.mp3

Another approach evokes traditional functional tonal harmony while
making use of 22-equal microchromaticism. Here's a 1996 attempt at
performing a piece so constructed, on a standard 61-key keyboard:

http://meowing.memh.uc.edu/~chris/micromp3s/tibia_by_paul_erlich.mp3

But more along the lines of the other approaches described above (and
inclusive of them) are some systems described in my most recent
paper, several of which are applicable to 22-equal. While the paper
awaits publication in Xenharmonikon 18, I've been mailing copies to
all interested parties, so give me your address if you want one!

I want to apologize to this list, which has directed such questions
to other fora such as the tuning list and tuning-math list. But it is
only with great trepidation that I attempt a post to yahoogroups at
all -- one of the lists I'm on got spammed by someone using my e-mail
address to send viruses to everyone -- so I beg this list's
indulgence in allowing this post.

> Do you make use of
> both in your playing, or do you stick mainly to the decatonics?

In addition to the other approaches mentioned above, I also make use
of a "free" approach, a "harmonic series" approach, "blues"
approaches of at least two varieties . . . 22-equal has a lot to
offer!

> How
> do you prefer to tune the instrument? It seems as though for the
> septimal diatonic approach, a tuning analogous to the "standard"
> EADGBE would be ideal,

Yes.

> whereas to get the most out of the decatonics
> something more unconventional might be in order.

Not at all -- a septimal diatonic 'EADGBE', or 'septimal pentatonic',
comprises half the notes of either kind of decatonic scale, so this
same tuning of the open strings is great for decatonicism. It allows
any of the decatonic scales to be played in one position, four notes
per string -- perfect for the human hand!

> Also, do you have any pictures

A picture with two views each of my 31-equal and 22-equal guitars is
currently the last picture here:

/makemicromusic/lst

As you can see, my 22-equal is actually a 7-string, so a septimal
diatonic 'BEADGBE' is actually how I tune its open strings.

Best of luck, and please keep me updated on your 22-tone guitar! I'll
listen to your 31-equal piece soon . . . Comments, questions,
criticisms, etc. on my music and/or writings are most welcome and
appreciated!

Cheers,
Paul

P. S. Pay no attention to the dots on those fingerboards. They are
not where I would have put them for the 'pseudo-standard' tunings (of
the open strings) that I use. And most importantly, I must thank John
Starrett for these excellent, flawless fretboards (of woods unique in
my collection) and the incredible hard work that must have gone into
them. Once over some initial setup surprises, they have remained
remarkably buzz-free.

P. P. S. The edges of the callouses developed from playing an
acoustic with .013s all day are great for fingering those high 31-
equal notes!

Hey Paul!

Thanks for the encouraging words! I find it kind of amusing how
playing that guitar sort of pushes my style towards the "Catler" end
of the spectrum...but then again, it's his design, so go figure.

I don't want this to become TOO theoretical of a post, but I should
clarify what I meant by a few things. I've been playing around with
them a bit in Scala, and the reason I referred to them as 5-limit is
that most of them form consonant 5-limit triads at up to 6 degrees
of the scale. For example, the Standard Pentachordal Major forms a
5-limit major triad if you combine degrees 1, 4, and 7. Using that
as a template for a triad (three notes seperated by two degrees
each), consonant 5-limit triads are formed at degrees 1, 4, 5, 7, 8,
and 10. Out of all the scales I've messed with in 22, your
decatonics seem to yield the highest number of consonant 5-limit
triads (as opposed to the 7-limit triads with no 5-limit intervals
that are formed by the septimal diatonic scales). In other words,
to play 5-limit music in 22, the decatonics would work best.

I'm actually familiar with all of the compositions that you
mentioned, courtesy of Andrew Heathwaite's listening list. All of
them I found very impressive and evocative. I think "Tibia" was my
favorite since it's so bizarrely twisted. I have a friend who's a
piano and composition major at SF State, and he freaked out when I
showed that one to him. "It sounds like the notes are bending
themselves!" he exclaimed on first listen. Now I must put up with
him constantly humming the melody ;-). If I can ever get him to
retune his piano, I might have to pester you for the score.

I'd really like a copy of your new paper, though I'm a little wary
of posting my postal address on the internet. Is there a more
secure way I could get it to you?

By the way, I think an Ibanez 7 string was the last guitar I was
expecting you to play, given the styles of those 3 compositions. I
think I was expecting more of an archtop or something. It's funny
though, because the guitar I'm having "22-ified" is a blue Fender
Strat with Duncan humbuckers and a mirrored pickguard...viva '80s
guitar aesthetics!

I'll keep ya posted as things develop...though there probably won't
be much action for another couple of weeks.

Many thanks for all the enlightenment,

-Igliashon Jones

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep"
<igliashon@s...> wrote:

> I don't want this to become TOO theoretical of a post, but I should
> clarify what I meant by a few things. I've been playing around
with
> them a bit in Scala, and the reason I referred to them as 5-limit
is
> that most of them form consonant 5-limit triads at up to 6 degrees
> of the scale.

I'm curious why you say "up to 6" . . . it seems there should always
be 8.

> For example, the Standard Pentachordal Major forms a
> 5-limit major triad if you combine degrees 1, 4, and 7. Using that
> as a template for a triad (three notes seperated by two degrees
> each), consonant 5-limit triads are formed at degrees 1, 4, 5, 7,
8,
> and 10.

Somehow you missed degrees 6 and 9 there, which also have consonant 5-
limit triads on them formed from that same "1, 4, 7" template. Is
there a bug in Scala? And if you similarly tried one of the
symmetrical decatonic scales, you should also find consonant 5-limit
triads starting at 8 degrees of that scale. The thing is, if you're
really only interested in these 5-limit aspects, you'd probably be
better off using a tuning such as 46-equal or 34-equal instead of 22-
equal for these decatonic scales. Even 12-equal wouldn't be much
worse than 22-equal for this. We'll should discuss this more off-list
once you receive my new paper.

> I'm actually familiar with all of the compositions that you
> mentioned, courtesy of Andrew Heathwaite's listening list. All of
> them I found very impressive and evocative.

Hey, thanks! That's encouraging -- I intend to do still better in the
future, now that I finally have a computer at home for music-making
purposes. Of course, playing live with a full microtonal band would
be even more appealing!

> I think "Tibia" was my
> favorite since it's so bizarrely twisted.

Thanks! It definitely shifts from bizarrely twisted to perfectly
normal, even in my own listening, depending on recent exposure to
microtonality.

> I have a friend who's a
> piano and composition major at SF State, and he freaked out when I
> showed that one to him. "It sounds like the notes are bending
> themselves!" he exclaimed on first listen. Now I must put up with
> him constantly humming the melody ;-).

Cool! I found that one I had the chord progression in my head,
singing the descending microtonal lines in the shower became much,
much easier.

> If I can ever get him to
> retune his piano, I might have to pester you for the score.

You'd have to use two pianos, since there's no way to get all those
consecutive 22-equal notes on one piano. You may have noticed from my
photo that I happen to have two pianos . . .

> I'd really like a copy of your new paper, though I'm a little wary
> of posting my postal address on the internet. Is there a more
> secure way I could get it to you?

If you're reading this post at the groups.yahoo site, you can just
click on my (truncated) e-mail address above, or just click "reply"
and change the "To" field to me instead of the list, in order to send
me a private e-mail.

> By the way, I think an Ibanez 7 string was the last guitar I was
> expecting you to play, given the styles of those 3 compositions.

Well, here are just a couple of the other styles (12-equal so far) I
work in:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/paulerlichacousticmusic.htm

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/stretchmusic.htm

The Ibanez, before it got refretted, was my main guitar -- I started
playing in 1987 and was a metal shredder well into the '90s . . . but
my heart always lay much more with British rock from the '60s and
early '70s. Needless to say, I've been exploring other avenues . . .
and haven't really worked on my speed chops for almost a decade.

> I
> think I was expecting more of an archtop or something. It's funny
> though, because the guitar I'm having "22-ified" is a blue Fender
> Strat with Duncan humbuckers and a mirrored pickguard...viva '80s
> guitar aesthetics!

Heh! Most people find the flourescent green really offensive, but I
guess I'm no visual aesthete. And the colored lines on my fretless
bass match the guitars -- green for 22, red for 31, and white for 12
(I have a blonde, almost white, G&L S-500 guitar in 12-equal). The
bass was the incredible work of the folks at freenote.com . . .

> I'll keep ya posted as things develop...though there probably won't
> be much action for another couple of weeks.

Great -- I'm sure this list is tired of my chattiness already :)

Best,
Paul

P,

{you wrote...}
>Great -- I'm sure this list is tired of my chattiness already :)

Nope - good to know you're still around!

Cheers,
Jon

> I'm curious why you say "up to 6" . . . it seems there should
always
> be 8.
> Somehow you missed degrees 6 and 9 there...

I don't know how I missed those--I think my ears must have been
malfunctioning! Yes, you are totally correct. Eight out of 10. My
mistake. And I was just using the pentachordal as one example, I am
aware that the symmetricals have similar properties.

The thing is, if you're
> really only interested in these 5-limit aspects, you'd probably be
> better off using a tuning such as 46-equal or 34-equal instead of
22-
> equal for these decatonic scales. Even 12-equal wouldn't be much
> worse than 22-equal for this.

Not at all! I'm interested much more in the 7-limit aspects than the
5. I just find 5-limit behavior in 22 very interesting, since it is
so non-diatonic! In fact, one of the main reasons I am interested in
22 is for its septimal diatonic scales, since they are more
consistent than those in 31 (i.e. they don't have any "wolf" fifths
in the mix).

> Hey, thanks! That's encouraging -- I intend to do still better in
the
> future, now that I finally have a computer at home for music-making
> purposes. Of course, playing live with a full microtonal band would
> be even more appealing!

I hope you'll keep us all up-to-date on any new compositions!

> You'd have to use two pianos, since there's no way to get all those
> consecutive 22-equal notes on one piano. You may have noticed from
>my photo that I happen to have two pianos . . .

Ah...that explains a lot. Too bad they don't make pianos with organ-
style dual keyboards.

> Well, here are just a couple of the other styles (12-equal so far)
I
> work in:
>
> http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/paulerlichacousticmusic.htm
>
> http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/stretchmusic.htm

Wow! You are one heck of a musician, Paul. I can definitely hear
how microtonal theory has influenced your 12-tone playing, especially
in the acoustic stuff. VERY impressive.

>And the colored lines on my fretless
> bass match the guitars -- green for 22, red for 31, and white for
12
> (I have a blonde, almost white, G&L S-500 guitar in 12-equal). The
> bass was the incredible work of the folks at freenote.com.

Holy crap! That's the solution to all of my problems! How could I
not have figured that out sooner...multi-colored fret lines! Hee
hee, I think my fretless is about to get a make-over....

Anywho, we'll have to continue this either via e-mail or on the
tuning forum once I get my guitar back from the shop, since I've got
a boat-load of theory questions for you. I'll send you my address so
you can send me your paper...I'm looking forward to it!

-Igs

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep"
<igliashon@s...> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I'm curious why you say "up to 6" . . . it seems there should
> always
> > be 8.
> > Somehow you missed degrees 6 and 9 there...
>
> I don't know how I missed those--I think my ears must have been
> malfunctioning! Yes, you are totally correct. Eight out of 10.
My
> mistake. And I was just using the pentachordal as one example, I
am
> aware that the symmetricals have similar properties.
>
> The thing is, if you're
> > really only interested in these 5-limit aspects, you'd probably
be
> > better off using a tuning such as 46-equal or 34-equal instead of
> 22-
> > equal for these decatonic scales. Even 12-equal wouldn't be much
> > worse than 22-equal for this.
>
> Not at all! I'm interested much more in the 7-limit aspects than
the
> 5. I just find 5-limit behavior in 22 very interesting, since it
is
> so non-diatonic!

Ah, well then you will really enjoy my new paper, which is contains
about 54 systems of 5-limit and 7-limit distributionally even scales
(that is, scales with two step sizes arranged as evenly as possible
around the octave), and the usual pentatonic-diatonic-chromatic-19-31
or "meantone" system is only 1 of these 54!

> In fact, one of the main reasons I am interested in
> 22 is for its septimal diatonic scales, since they are more
> consistent than those in 31 (i.e. they don't have any "wolf" fifths
> in the mix).

You will find these septimal diatonic scales as part of
the "superpyth" system in my paper. The distributionally even scale
sizes are 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 12, 17, 22, and 27, and the two step sizes
in the 22-tone "superpyth" scale are close to being equal. Which
means, 22-equal is a fine choice for realizing the potentialities of
this system.

> I hope you'll keep us all up-to-date on any new compositions!

That's really the reason I'm here. No more theory on this list, I
promise! :) And thanks for your compliments about my musicianship. I
don't know if microtonal theory influenced the acoustic stuff, but
listening to Indian and Middle Eastern music sure did!

Best,
Paul

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...>
wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep"
igliashon@s...> wrote:
> > ...
> > ... I'm interested much more in the 7-limit aspects than the
> > 5. I just find 5-limit behavior in 22 very interesting, since it
is
> > so non-diatonic!
>
> Ah, well then you will really enjoy my new paper, which is contains
> about 54 systems of 5-limit and 7-limit distributionally even
scales
> (that is, scales with two step sizes arranged as evenly as possible
> around the octave), and the usual pentatonic-diatonic-chromatic-19-
31
> or "meantone" system is only 1 of these 54!
> ...
> > I hope you'll keep us all up-to-date on any new compositions!
>
> That's really the reason I'm here. No more theory on this list, I
> promise! :) And thanks for your compliments about my musicianship.
I
> don't know if microtonal theory influenced the acoustic stuff, but
> listening to Indian and Middle Eastern music sure did!

I've been listening to quite a few new things on this list recently
(generally not until several days after they've been posted), and
though I've enjoyed many of these, due to severe time constraints
I've not been able to express my appreciation and encouragement.

Paul, after having finally listened to your three compositions for
the first (!) time last night, I could not help but make a special
effort to say more, more!

As I read your new paper, I was disappointed that you didn't go into
more specific detail about one or two of the many tunings you listed
(although I knew that you needed to limit the total number of
pages). But rather than doing that, how much better it would be if
you wrote a collection of short pieces illustrating some of the
inherent possibilities of those tunings -- perhaps along the lines of
Easley Blackwood's microtonal etudes. I think that would be worth
much more than a thousand pages of theoretical text and diagrams --
especially if you put the theory to the back of your mind and allow
the music to flow from your heart!

If that's really the reason you're here now, then by all means, go
for it!

Best,

--George