New to the list (a long-winded intro with a question at the end)

Hello, everybody! My name is Igliashon Jones, and I am a microtonal
guitarist. Currently I have a 31-EDO guitar and one of Jon Catler's
wonderful 13-limit (minus 5) 12-Tone Ultra-Plus guitars, and I have
an old nylon string being refretted to 22-EDO as I write this. To
give a little background on myself: I'm 21 and I live in the Bay
Area, and I stumbled into the wonderland of Xenharmonic music almost
by accident. Basically I have always been obsessed with the idea of
breaking free of musical cliches, and when adding bizarre sounds and
complex polyrhythms didn't help as much as I'd hoped I suddenly
realized that the solution might be to change the number of frets
per octave on my guitar. I came very close to just guessing a
random number (13 or 14 it probably would have been) and refretting
to that, but a google search on "more than 12 notes per octave"
turned up a few scholarly research articles. These introduced me to
the term "microtonality", and a few searches later I discovered that
there was in fact a whole new world right under my nose.

Long story short, I've become fairly well-versed in the basic
theories of rational intonation, harmonic series, and the various
other equal temperaments. 31 was the scale I picked to start with,
and I've got what I think is a good enough grasp of it to express
myself freely. However, as many of you know microtonal tuning gets
addictive, and I cannot be satisfied with just one system. So I'm
going hog-wild and refretting all my guitars to different systems.

Now, I should note that I've gotten my hands on as much microtonal
music as I can and I have loved nearly all of it. But one thing
I've noticed is that for the large part, microtonality is the domain
of scholars, theoreticians, and modern classical/avant garde
composers. This is all well and good, and has created a very unique
and interesting community here, and were it not for these scholars
and theoreticians I would have had quite a time finding my way
around. But my dream has always been to reach out to the public at
large and shatter their conception of what music can be. I want to
take microtonal music out of the shadows (though not necessarily
into the spotlight; the last thing we need is it to become
commercialized). I think that maybe by applying microtonality to
some of the familiar modern musical idioms, more people might
embrace it.

To put it straight: I want to form a microtonal band, and I've come
here seeking advice. I don't know anyone in my area who is
simultaneously a good musician, a microtonal enthusiast, and has
either the money or the luthier skills to put together a small
ensemble of microtonal basses and/or guitars and/or some other type
of performance-oriented instruments that would match my own. Does
anyone have any idea of a cost-effective way to access a variety of
microtonal scales on a performance-oriented instrument? I thought
about fretless instruments for a while, but trying to teach someone
to play a fretless in several different scales (or even to play it
myself) is frankly beyond my ability.

Well, at least you're in the Bay area! Anyways it
might not be that hard, basically you need a
microtonal bassist, but I bet you could get away with
a bass player who plays a fretless, and drums, well no
intonation per-say. Sonic Youth is of course the most
famous example of a micro-tonal band, so maybe the
bigger challenge would be to not have the band sound
like a copy of SY.
--- cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...> wrote:

>
> Hello, everybody! My name is Igliashon Jones, and I
> am a microtonal
> guitarist. Currently I have a 31-EDO guitar and one
> of Jon Catler's

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

I don't think it'd be too hard not to sound like Sonic Youth; those
guys have a sound all their own. The problem with a fretless player
is that either a) s/he'd have to learn to nearly approximate all of
the various intervals in 17, 22, 31, and 13-limit JI by ear (which
is a daunting task if ever I've encountered one) or b) I'd have to
pick one system and stick with it, and have him/her learn it, which
would be easier on the bassist but limiting to me.

If only there was some way to make removable fret markings for a
fretless, like on a plastic sheet template or something. Then I
could just measure out the frets for each system and s/he could
change templates for each song. Either that or just buy a bunch of
cheap fretless basses and mark them up accordingly, but that's
pretty costly anyway you dice it up unless I were to buy some REALLY
CRAPPY basses.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Brian Redfern
<brianwredfern@y...> wrote:
> Well, at least you're in the Bay area! Anyways it
> might not be that hard, basically you need a
> microtonal bassist, but I bet you could get away with
> a bass player who plays a fretless, and drums, well no
> intonation per-say. Sonic Youth is of course the most
> famous example of a micro-tonal band, so maybe the
> bigger challenge would be to not have the band sound
> like a copy of SY.

You actually could get fret markers for a bass player,
for beginnning violin/cello players they make tape
that goes across the finger-board to mark off the
notes. It wouldn't be that hard to not sound like SY,
but I have heard a lot of people using microtones in a
simple way wind up sounding like them, but if you have
chops on guitar, you wouldn't sound like them at all,
its just that they're not that hard to copy, given
that beyond their micro-tunings the actual guitar
parts are just rhythmically simple drones or riffs.
--- cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...> wrote:

>
> I don't think it'd be too hard not to sound like
> Sonic Youth; those
> guys have a sound all their own. The problem with a
> fretless player
> is that either a) s/he'd have to learn to nearly
> approximate all of
> the various intervals in 17, 22, 31, and 13-limit JI
> by ear (which
> is a daunting task if ever I've encountered one) or
> b) I'd have to
> pick one system and stick with it, and have him/her
> learn it, which
> would be easier on the bassist but limiting to me.
>
> If only there was some way to make removable fret
> markings for a
> fretless, like on a plastic sheet template or
> something. Then I
> could just measure out the frets for each system and
> s/he could
> change templates for each song. Either that or just
> buy a bunch of
> cheap fretless basses and mark them up accordingly,
> but that's
> pretty costly anyway you dice it up unless I were to
> buy some REALLY
> CRAPPY basses.
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Brian Redfern
>
> <brianwredfern@y...> wrote:
> > Well, at least you're in the Bay area! Anyways it
> > might not be that hard, basically you need a
> > microtonal bassist, but I bet you could get away
> with
> > a bass player who plays a fretless, and drums,
> well no
> > intonation per-say. Sonic Youth is of course the
> most
> > famous example of a micro-tonal band, so maybe the
> > bigger challenge would be to not have the band
> sound
> > like a copy of SY.
>
>
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

I have a microtonal bass around here that is a converted Dan electro which at one time you could get at sears. It was done by Jose Garcia and is tuned to one of Erv's 22 tone 7 limit tunings who used it in his microtonal rock band ( in the 80's) Cypher.
I actually have been amazed how versatile it has been with other tunings. Often one does mind missing some of the higher harmonics in this range. Save some poor bass from being stuck playing a horrible tuning and refret it. you'll be glad you did

cityoftheasleep wrote:

>I don't think it'd be too hard not to sound like Sonic Youth; those >guys have a sound all their own. The problem with a fretless player >is that either a) s/he'd have to learn to nearly approximate all of >the various intervals in 17, 22, 31, and 13-limit JI by ear (which >is a daunting task if ever I've encountered one) or b) I'd have to >pick one system and stick with it, and have him/her learn it, which >would be easier on the bassist but limiting to me. >
>If only there was some way to make removable fret markings for a >fretless, like on a plastic sheet template or something. Then I >could just measure out the frets for each system and s/he could >change templates for each song. Either that or just buy a bunch of >cheap fretless basses and mark them up accordingly, but that's >pretty costly anyway you dice it up unless I were to buy some REALLY >CRAPPY basses.
>
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Brian Redfern ><brianwredfern@y...> wrote:
> >
>>Well, at least you're in the Bay area! Anyways it
>>might not be that hard, basically you need a
>>microtonal bassist, but I bet you could get away with
>>a bass player who plays a fretless, and drums, well no
>>intonation per-say. Sonic Youth is of course the most
>>famous example of a micro-tonal band, so maybe the
>>bigger challenge would be to not have the band sound
>>like a copy of SY.
>> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Well at least it's the bay area and not like say Kansas! Just keep
putting up ads and sending out feelers and I bet you'll find what/who
you're looking for. BTW,it's great to see such a young guy getting so
jazzed up and onto this so heavily...good luck!
Also, do you have and of your mico stuff online?
take care,
Dan Stearns
http://kronoson.station185.com/kronosonic/contrib/dan.htm
http://zebox.com/avantgarde_jazzguitar/
http://www.zebox.com/daniel_anthony_stearns/

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep"
<igliashon@s...> wrote:
>
> Hello, everybody! My name is Igliashon Jones, and I am a
microtonal
> guitarist. Currently I have a 31-EDO guitar and one of Jon
Catler's
> wonderful 13-limit (minus 5) 12-Tone Ultra-Plus guitars, and I have
> an old nylon string being refretted to 22-EDO as I write this. To
> give a little background on myself: I'm 21 and I live in the Bay
> Area, and I stumbled into the wonderland of Xenharmonic music
almost
> by accident. Basically I have always been obsessed with the idea
of
> breaking free of musical cliches, and when adding bizarre sounds
and
> complex polyrhythms didn't help as much as I'd hoped I suddenly
> realized that the solution might be to change the number of frets
> per octave on my guitar. I came very close to just guessing a
> random number (13 or 14 it probably would have been) and refretting
> to that, but a google search on "more than 12 notes per octave"
> turned up a few scholarly research articles. These introduced me
to
> the term "microtonality", and a few searches later I discovered
that
> there was in fact a whole new world right under my nose.
>
> Long story short, I've become fairly well-versed in the basic
> theories of rational intonation, harmonic series, and the various
> other equal temperaments. 31 was the scale I picked to start with,
> and I've got what I think is a good enough grasp of it to express
> myself freely. However, as many of you know microtonal tuning gets
> addictive, and I cannot be satisfied with just one system. So I'm
> going hog-wild and refretting all my guitars to different systems.
>
> Now, I should note that I've gotten my hands on as much microtonal
> music as I can and I have loved nearly all of it. But one thing
> I've noticed is that for the large part, microtonality is the
domain
> of scholars, theoreticians, and modern classical/avant garde
> composers. This is all well and good, and has created a very
unique
> and interesting community here, and were it not for these scholars
> and theoreticians I would have had quite a time finding my way
> around. But my dream has always been to reach out to the public at
> large and shatter their conception of what music can be. I want to
> take microtonal music out of the shadows (though not necessarily
> into the spotlight; the last thing we need is it to become
> commercialized). I think that maybe by applying microtonality to
> some of the familiar modern musical idioms, more people might
> embrace it.
>
> To put it straight: I want to form a microtonal band, and I've come
> here seeking advice. I don't know anyone in my area who is
> simultaneously a good musician, a microtonal enthusiast, and has
> either the money or the luthier skills to put together a small
> ensemble of microtonal basses and/or guitars and/or some other type
> of performance-oriented instruments that would match my own. Does
> anyone have any idea of a cost-effective way to access a variety of
> microtonal scales on a performance-oriented instrument? I thought
> about fretless instruments for a while, but trying to teach someone
> to play a fretless in several different scales (or even to play it
> myself) is frankly beyond my ability.

Actually Pete McRae is up there and a damn good musician, you should try to hook up with him.
rpmcrae@...

>>
>>To put it straight: I want to form a microtonal band, and I've come >>here seeking advice. I don't know anyone in my area who is >>simultaneously a good musician, a microtonal enthusiast, and has >>either the money or the luthier skills to put together a small >>ensemble of microtonal basses and/or guitars and/or some other type >>of performance-oriented instruments that would match my own. Does >>anyone have any idea of a cost-effective way to access a variety of >>microtonal scales on a performance-oriented instrument? I thought >>about fretless instruments for a while, but trying to teach someone >>to play a fretless in several different scales (or even to play it >>myself) is frankly beyond my ability.
>> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Welcome Igliashon,

I offer the following in no particular order, but with great sincerity:

1. Persevere! You are already sounding very committed to an unconventional musical life, and there is no need to fret (literally and otherwise...).

2. As Dan wrote, at least it isn't Kansas; more to the point, it is the Bay Area! Just a day or so ago I read on Kyle Gann's blog how he is getting way more performances on the West coast as opposed to East, and he feels he is a WC'r trapped in a EC'rs body!

3. It is remarkably fertile up there, with a lot of very open-minded musicians. If you can relax into it, you'll find yourself growing even until you find other similar non-12 players.

4. You mentioned a couple EDOs in your rep, but be aware that the Just Intonation Network (of which I'm sure Catler knows of) is based in SF (this may be old news to you) and they are having concerts sometime in the coming year. You don't find this kind of stuff in North Dakota, my friend!

5. There are a fair number of people on this list from the SF/Oakland/Berkeley area - no players that come to mind, at least in your requirements, but hopefully supportive people that you could hang with and learn from.

6. Last, and most important: you are in an epicenter of microtonality that has a long and deep history of nurturing great explorers. Was it always easy? No. But Lou Harrison spent a long and loving time in NoCal, and leaves us with a vast repository of great music. And one HAS to mention that the ground still vibrates from the times that Harry Partch worked in Oakland, Berkeley, Sausalito, Petaluma... I've corresponded with people (even a *bass* player!) as part of my work with the Harry Partch Foundation that lived up there and were creative.

You Can Do It.

As a matter of fact, we now expect you to.

Cheers,
Jon

P.S. Don't know what would pan out of it, but if you're in the SoMa area, look up OmniCircus (http://www.omnicircus.com/) and talk to Frank Garvey; Frank's father conducted a number of Partch premiers in the 50/60's, and Frank created his own ensemble that combines performance, theatre, art, and robotics (this is *very* wild stuff). Tell him Jon Szanto let you know about his stuff, and see if he can guide you to players as well...

P.S.S. I happen to think what you want to do is not only important, not only necessary, but both vital and long overdue. There are so few people outside of the academic/classical circles *actively* promoting non12. Have you corresponded with Neil Haverstick???

Mr. Stearns, I currently have one 31-tet improvisation up on my
soundclick site ( http://www.soundclick.com/cityoftheasleep ), which
I recorded a day or two after getting the guitar back from the shop
and was just starting to get familiar with it. It's very metal, and
the drum sounds are pretty wack, but it gives a decent feel for one
aspect of my playing style. More uploads will follow once I restore
my home internet access and finish up my final album of 12-tet music.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
<daniel_anthony_stearns@y...> wrote:

> Also, do you have and of your mico stuff online?
> take care,
> Dan Stearns
> http://kronoson.station185.com/kronosonic/contrib/dan.htm
> http://zebox.com/avantgarde_jazzguitar/
> http://www.zebox.com/daniel_anthony_stearns/

Any idea where I could get this kind of tape? If I had some of that
stuff, I'd just need a ruler and I could use FretCalc to mark off
the frets. I don't think I really have to worry about sounding like
SY. I may not be a schooled guitarist, but I do have some chops. I
play a lot of metal and blues, plus my own brand of sort of dark
down-beat funk--a pretty far cry from the semi-chaotic noise pop of
SY.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Brian Redfern
<brianwredfern@y...> wrote:
> You actually could get fret markers for a bass player,
> for beginnning violin/cello players they make tape
> that goes across the finger-board to mark off the
> notes. It wouldn't be that hard to not sound like SY,
> but I have heard a lot of people using microtones in a
> simple way wind up sounding like them, but if you have
> chops on guitar, you wouldn't sound like them at all,
> its just that they're not that hard to copy, given
> that beyond their micro-tunings the actual guitar
> parts are just rhythmically simple drones or riffs.

Thank you, Mr. Szanto, for the encouraging words! I will post
updates to this list as I make progress. I wonder if there's still
a micro scene around Mills College? I know that it used to be quite
the hotspot back in the day, but I've not heard much of it
recently. I will be starting my first semester at San Fran state
this spring, so perhaps a few (or many) well-placed flyers will net
me some musicians.

On a side note, do you know of any good luthiers that are relatively
close to my area who have experience with microtonal retrofretting?
I'm not very fond of the guy who did my 31-EDO...he's slow, and a
few of the frets are out of tune.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"
<JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> Welcome Igliashon,
>
> I offer the following in no particular order, but with great
sincerity:
>
> 1. Persevere! You are already sounding very committed to an
unconventional
> musical life, and there is no need to fret (literally and
otherwise...).
>
> 2. As Dan wrote, at least it isn't Kansas; more to the point, it
is the Bay
> Area! Just a day or so ago I read on Kyle Gann's blog how he is
getting way
> more performances on the West coast as opposed to East, and he
feels he is
> a WC'r trapped in a EC'rs body!
>
> 3. It is remarkably fertile up there, with a lot of very open-
minded
> musicians. If you can relax into it, you'll find yourself growing
even
> until you find other similar non-12 players.
>
> 4. You mentioned a couple EDOs in your rep, but be aware that the
Just
> Intonation Network (of which I'm sure Catler knows of) is based in
SF (this
> may be old news to you) and they are having concerts sometime in
the coming
> year. You don't find this kind of stuff in North Dakota, my friend!
>
> 5. There are a fair number of people on this list from the
> SF/Oakland/Berkeley area - no players that come to mind, at least
in your
> requirements, but hopefully supportive people that you could hang
with and
> learn from.
>
> 6. Last, and most important: you are in an epicenter of
microtonality that
> has a long and deep history of nurturing great explorers. Was it
always
> easy? No. But Lou Harrison spent a long and loving time in NoCal,
and
> leaves us with a vast repository of great music. And one HAS to
mention
> that the ground still vibrates from the times that Harry Partch
worked in
> Oakland, Berkeley, Sausalito, Petaluma... I've corresponded with
people
> (even a *bass* player!) as part of my work with the Harry Partch
Foundation
> that lived up there and were creative.
>
> You Can Do It.
>
> As a matter of fact, we now expect you to.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
> P.S. Don't know what would pan out of it, but if you're in the
SoMa area,
> look up OmniCircus (http://www.omnicircus.com/) and talk to Frank
Garvey;
> Frank's father conducted a number of Partch premiers in the
50/60's, and
> Frank created his own ensemble that combines performance, theatre,
art, and
> robotics (this is *very* wild stuff). Tell him Jon Szanto let you
know
> about his stuff, and see if he can guide you to players as well...
>
> P.S.S. I happen to think what you want to do is not only
important, not
> only necessary, but both vital and long overdue. There are so few
people
> outside of the academic/classical circles *actively* promoting
non12. Have
> you corresponded with Neil Haverstick???

Check out music stores that sell to kids in the school
orchestra, or any that offer violin lessons can help
you out.
--- cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...> wrote:

>
> Any idea where I could get this kind of tape? If I
> had some of that
> stuff, I'd just need a ruler and I could use
> FretCalc to mark off
> the frets. I don't think I really have to worry
> about sounding like
> SY. I may not be a schooled guitarist, but I do
> have some chops. I
> play a lot of metal and blues, plus my own brand of
> sort of dark
> down-beat funk--a pretty far cry from the
> semi-chaotic noise pop of
> SY.
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Brian Redfern
>
> <brianwredfern@y...> wrote:
> > You actually could get fret markers for a bass
> player,
> > for beginnning violin/cello players they make tape
> > that goes across the finger-board to mark off the
> > notes. It wouldn't be that hard to not sound like
> SY,
> > but I have heard a lot of people using microtones
> in a
> > simple way wind up sounding like them, but if you
> have
> > chops on guitar, you wouldn't sound like them at
> all,
> > its just that they're not that hard to copy, given
> > that beyond their micro-tunings the actual guitar
> > parts are just rhythmically simple drones or
> riffs.
>
>
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Other Music--as I recall--unfretted some instruments and used ligatures to move the tunings around, which I thought was a pretty nice "expedient". I've never tried it, so I can't say how much of a fuss it is, or isn't. But if it works well enough, that's a lot of ear-training drills you can save your players. I used 'model airplane' paint on my cello fingerboard--a la Partch--but I still had to _really_ hear where my fingers got it right...(And BTW, the paint came right off with 0000 steel wool)

Plus, it's been my experience that if you can avoid telling people there's anything "weird" about it, they'll just dig what you're doing for the art of it! And performers are always grateful for "an easier way"... but they don't like to be seen "cheating", either, so go figure...

In any case, there might be some resources at the Just Intonation Network that you'd be VERY interested in...

John Carruthers in LA is the only [efficient] shop I know of to get bolt-on [guitar] necks done with *&^%ed-up frets. :-) But the more you bug these luthiers the more likely they'll be to think about it, I hope.

Rick Turner in Santa Cruz has expressed interest, but he's busy as hell...There's a bunch of good builders who do repairs up here, but I haven't asked any of 'em, yet. Carruthers has a programmable machine that cranks 'em out, and they're right in tune, as long as the numbers are good--and you don't need little bits of frets bent or scattered around. My Carruthers guitar is more in tune than my DX-7II, which I tweaked as good as I could get it!

cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...> wrote:

Any idea where I could get this kind of tape? If I had some of that
stuff, I'd just need a ruler and I could use FretCalc to mark off
the frets. I don't think I really have to worry about sounding like
SY. I may not be a schooled guitarist, but I do have some chops. I
play a lot of metal and blues, plus my own brand of sort of dark
down-beat funk--a pretty far cry from the semi-chaotic noise pop of
SY.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Brian Redfern

wrote:
> You actually could get fret markers for a bass player,
> for beginnning violin/cello players they make tape
> that goes across the finger-board to mark off the
> notes. It wouldn't be that hard to not sound like SY,
> but I have heard a lot of people using microtones in a
> simple way wind up sounding like them, but if you have
> chops on guitar, you wouldn't sound like them at all,
> its just that they're not that hard to copy, given
> that beyond their micro-tunings the actual guitar
> parts are just rhythmically simple drones or riffs.

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Or, you could just have them pull the frets off your
guitar. Paul Livingston (down here at calarts) plays
North Indian classical music on a fretless guitar.

--- "petesfriedclams@..."
<petesfriedclams@...> wrote:

> Other Music--as I recall--unfretted some instruments
> and used ligatures to move the tunings around, which
> I thought was a pretty nice "expedient". I've never
> tried it, so I can't say how much of a fuss it is,
> or isn't. But if it works well enough, that's a lot
> of ear-training drills you can save your players. I
> used 'model airplane' paint on my cello
> fingerboard--a la Partch--but I still had to
> _really_ hear where my fingers got it right...(And
> BTW, the paint came right off with 0000 steel wool)
>
> Plus, it's been my experience that if you can avoid
> telling people there's anything "weird" about it,
> they'll just dig what you're doing for the art of
> it! And performers are always grateful for "an
> easier way"... but they don't like to be seen
> "cheating", either, so go figure...
>
> In any case, there might be some resources at the
> Just Intonation Network that you'd be VERY
> interested in...
>
> John Carruthers in LA is the only [efficient] shop I
> know of to get bolt-on [guitar] necks done with
> *&^%ed-up frets. :-) But the more you bug these
> luthiers the more likely they'll be to think about
> it, I hope.
>
> Rick Turner in Santa Cruz has expressed interest,
> but he's busy as hell...There's a bunch of good
> builders who do repairs up here, but I haven't asked
> any of 'em, yet. Carruthers has a programmable
> machine that cranks 'em out, and they're right in
> tune, as long as the numbers are good--and you don't
> need little bits of frets bent or scattered around.
> My Carruthers guitar is more in tune than my DX-7II,
> which I tweaked as good as I could get it!
>
> cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...> wrote:
>
>
> Any idea where I could get this kind of tape? If I
> had some of that
> stuff, I'd just need a ruler and I could use
> FretCalc to mark off
> the frets. I don't think I really have to worry
> about sounding like
> SY. I may not be a schooled guitarist, but I do have
> some chops. I
> play a lot of metal and blues, plus my own brand of
> sort of dark
> down-beat funk--a pretty far cry from the
> semi-chaotic noise pop of
> SY.
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Brian Redfern
>
>
> wrote:
> > You actually could get fret markers for a bass
> player,
> > for beginnning violin/cello players they make tape
> > that goes across the finger-board to mark off the
> > notes. It wouldn't be that hard to not sound like
> SY,
> > but I have heard a lot of people using microtones
> in a
> > simple way wind up sounding like them, but if you
> have
> > chops on guitar, you wouldn't sound like them at
> all,
> > its just that they're not that hard to copy, given
> > that beyond their micro-tunings the actual guitar
> > parts are just rhythmically simple drones or
> riffs.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

Over the last 30 years i have seen all type of instruments and those that really get people interested in new tunings are those where someone can walk up to it and hear it right off. In the Case of even this one refretted bass, it haas changed hands possibly 4 times now and has been instructive to all. More often than not, one is not always sure about the intervals until one hears it enough times in the timbre it is being used in. I have noticed quite a bit of difference in the sound of ratios according to the instrument. Bottom line, one has to hear the intervals before one plays them.
Ivor Derrig realized the importance of having multiple guitars in as many different temperments as possible, to compare and investigate.
We have 1,000 of fretless basses and not that much microtonal music on them. A 1,000 microtonal basses and the world would change.
Where in L.a. are you ( or are you at Cal arts only?)

Brian Redfern wrote:

>Or, you could just have them pull the frets off your
>guitar. Paul Livingston (down here at calarts) plays
>North Indian classical music on a fretless guitar.
>
>--- "petesfriedclams@..."
><petesfriedclams@...> wrote:
>
> >
--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Hmm...Carruthers is a name I've heard thrown around all over the
place, but have been able to find precious little info about. If I
lived near L.A., I surely would have checked him out by now. What's
his status on doing business via mail? What are his prices and
turnaround times like? Up here in San Mateo (where I live), I found
a luthier (Greg Hannig of Hannig's fretworks) who did a semi-decent
31-tet fretting for $1000 that took about two months. Is Carruthers
any cheaper and/or faster than that?

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "petesfriedclams@s..."
<petesfriedclams@s...> wrote:
> Other Music--as I recall--unfretted some instruments and used
ligatures to move the tunings around, which I thought was a pretty
nice "expedient". I've never tried it, so I can't say how much of a
fuss it is, or isn't. But if it works well enough, that's a lot of
ear-training drills you can save your players. I used 'model
airplane' paint on my cello fingerboard--a la Partch--but I still
had to _really_ hear where my fingers got it right...(And BTW, the
paint came right off with 0000 steel wool)
>
> Plus, it's been my experience that if you can avoid telling people
there's anything "weird" about it, they'll just dig what you're
doing for the art of it! And performers are always grateful for "an
easier way"... but they don't like to be seen "cheating", either, so
go figure...
>
> In any case, there might be some resources at the Just Intonation
Network that you'd be VERY interested in...
>
> John Carruthers in LA is the only [efficient] shop I know of to
get bolt-on [guitar] necks done with *&^%ed-up frets. :-) But the
more you bug these luthiers the more likely they'll be to think
about it, I hope.
>
> Rick Turner in Santa Cruz has expressed interest, but he's busy as
hell...There's a bunch of good builders who do repairs up here, but
I haven't asked any of 'em, yet. Carruthers has a programmable
machine that cranks 'em out, and they're right in tune, as long as
the numbers are good--and you don't need little bits of frets bent
or scattered around. My Carruthers guitar is more in tune than my
DX-7II, which I tweaked as good as I could get it!
>
> cityoftheasleep <igliashon@s...> wrote:
>
>
> Any idea where I could get this kind of tape? If I had some of
that
> stuff, I'd just need a ruler and I could use FretCalc to mark off
> the frets. I don't think I really have to worry about sounding
like
> SY. I may not be a schooled guitarist, but I do have some chops. I
> play a lot of metal and blues, plus my own brand of sort of dark
> down-beat funk--a pretty far cry from the semi-chaotic noise pop
of
> SY.
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Brian Redfern
>
> wrote:
> > You actually could get fret markers for a bass player,
> > for beginnning violin/cello players they make tape
> > that goes across the finger-board to mark off the
> > notes. It wouldn't be that hard to not sound like SY,
> > but I have heard a lot of people using microtones in a
> > simple way wind up sounding like them, but if you have
> > chops on guitar, you wouldn't sound like them at all,
> > its just that they're not that hard to copy, given
> > that beyond their micro-tunings the actual guitar
> > parts are just rhythmically simple drones or riffs.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm not up-to-date on what they're really up to, but here's the link I found:

www.carruthersguitars.com

I had a whole new neck made for about the price of a regulation (good!) refret, ~$300, ten years ago. (I read somewhere that $500 is a Manhattan price for a "normal", good refret, these days. Piffle! That's too much! :-)

[I think] You can select the neck shape and size, and as long as they don't have to tweak any partial frets, it's a go-go, no extra charge. I got a 22-tone JI, actually a 1.3.7.9.11.15 Eikosany, and I just gave 'em the ratios and they did it. (To have an existing neck refretted costs more, 'cause they've gotta fill the old slots, and if there's finishing to worry about...I don't know.) My neck isn't 'painted' at all, but it is all sanded really nice and stuff...As I recall the installation (ie bolting it on and setting it up, AND a new nut) charges were minimal, if not included (!).

He's got (or, he had) a copying lathe that shapes the necks, and a computerized jig that saws the fret slots. All they do is pound in the frets, file, sand and polish. It's pretty slick, in the best sense. If you want it 'painted', ie clear-coated, or whatever, I'm sure it would be reasonable, but good finishing is a hassle. Without finishing, it's an easy (one-day?) job. I'm sure I didn't wait more than a week for mine, but I was living there. Your turnaround time would depend (I guess) on how busy they are right then, and how much they hate packing and shipping stuff. John was always conservative with action, never too high, and NEVER too low, so...I wouldn't foresee a problem doing it by post, but maybe they don't like to...

Yeah, it's been quite awhile since he did the one for me... But he acted like he did it all the time, day in and day out. I LOVED that!

I'd get another half-dozen if I had the dough...

Cheers,

Pete

ps I wouldn't necessarily recommend them for anything OTHER than this, but they have been known to do top-notch work. I'm sure you could find at least a few folks who could tell you horror stories, too, of course. I was VERY satisfied with my new neck, and I got other refrets there (12Tet) that have lasted a long time with a LOT of playing!

cityoftheasleep <igliashon@...> wrote:

Hmm...Carruthers is a name I've heard thrown around all over the
place, but have been able to find precious little info about. If I
lived near L.A., I surely would have checked him out by now. What's
his status on doing business via mail? What are his prices and
turnaround times like?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You could try making your own. If 12 and 13 year olds can do it, so can you:
www.geocities.com/ubertar/kids

You could either make a bunch of them with different tunings, or use movable "gut" frets
(fishing line) like on middle eastern instruments. The movable frets are more versatile, but
are best if you want to work in a particular scale for a long period of time. If you want to
change from scale to scale often, I'd suggest making more instruments.

If you decide to do this, I'd be happy to give you any needed advice. It's really not that
hard to do.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "cityoftheasleep" <igliashon@s...> wrote:
>
> Hello, everybody! My name is Igliashon Jones, and I am a microtonal
> guitarist. Currently I have a 31-EDO guitar and one of Jon Catler's
> wonderful 13-limit (minus 5) 12-Tone Ultra-Plus guitars, and I have
> an old nylon string being refretted to 22-EDO as I write this. To
> give a little background on myself: I'm 21 and I live in the Bay
> Area, and I stumbled into the wonderland of Xenharmonic music almost
> by accident. Basically I have always been obsessed with the idea of
> breaking free of musical cliches, and when adding bizarre sounds and
> complex polyrhythms didn't help as much as I'd hoped I suddenly
> realized that the solution might be to change the number of frets
> per octave on my guitar. I came very close to just guessing a
> random number (13 or 14 it probably would have been) and refretting
> to that, but a google search on "more than 12 notes per octave"
> turned up a few scholarly research articles. These introduced me to
> the term "microtonality", and a few searches later I discovered that
> there was in fact a whole new world right under my nose.
>
> Long story short, I've become fairly well-versed in the basic
> theories of rational intonation, harmonic series, and the various
> other equal temperaments. 31 was the scale I picked to start with,
> and I've got what I think is a good enough grasp of it to express
> myself freely. However, as many of you know microtonal tuning gets
> addictive, and I cannot be satisfied with just one system. So I'm
> going hog-wild and refretting all my guitars to different systems.
>
> Now, I should note that I've gotten my hands on as much microtonal
> music as I can and I have loved nearly all of it. But one thing
> I've noticed is that for the large part, microtonality is the domain
> of scholars, theoreticians, and modern classical/avant garde
> composers. This is all well and good, and has created a very unique
> and interesting community here, and were it not for these scholars
> and theoreticians I would have had quite a time finding my way
> around. But my dream has always been to reach out to the public at
> large and shatter their conception of what music can be. I want to
> take microtonal music out of the shadows (though not necessarily
> into the spotlight; the last thing we need is it to become
> commercialized). I think that maybe by applying microtonality to
> some of the familiar modern musical idioms, more people might
> embrace it.
>
> To put it straight: I want to form a microtonal band, and I've come
> here seeking advice. I don't know anyone in my area who is
> simultaneously a good musician, a microtonal enthusiast, and has
> either the money or the luthier skills to put together a small
> ensemble of microtonal basses and/or guitars and/or some other type
> of performance-oriented instruments that would match my own. Does
> anyone have any idea of a cost-effective way to access a variety of
> microtonal scales on a performance-oriented instrument? I thought
> about fretless instruments for a while, but trying to teach someone
> to play a fretless in several different scales (or even to play it
> myself) is frankly beyond my ability.

That makes a lot of sense, people who learn fretless
instruments like violin, cello, and bass are still
playing on instruments designed for a standard
intonation, where-as a fretted bass that's properly
intonated for microtones will sound correct because
its been intonated for a microtonal scale.

I'm about to build some micrtotonal flutes, along the
same idea, rather than try to bend a western flute to
play microtones, I'm taking a technique I learned at
school from Nyoman Wenten, some of their older bamboo
sulings from Bali were cracking in the dry heat of
Valencia, so Wenten's brother built sulings from PVC.
What's interesting is that its possible to mess with
the spacing and number of holes, along with the width
of the PVC to make different variations.

I already play traditional suling, and I'm working on
some new stuff (now that I got my soundcard working),
mixing some traditional suling with electronic
microtones generated from csound.
--- Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:

>
> Over the last 30 years i have seen all type of
> instruments and those
> that really get people interested in new tunings are
> those where someone
> can walk up to it and hear it right off. In the Case
> of even this one
> refretted bass, it haas changed hands possibly 4
> times now and has been
> instructive to all. More often than not, one is not
> always sure about
> the intervals until one hears it enough times in the
> timbre it is being
> used in. I have noticed quite a bit of difference in
> the sound of ratios
> according to the instrument. Bottom line, one has to
> hear the intervals
> before one plays them.
> Ivor Derrig realized the importance of having
> multiple guitars in as
> many different temperments as possible, to compare
> and investigate.
> We have 1,000 of fretless basses and not that
> much microtonal music
> on them. A 1,000 microtonal basses and the world
> would change.
>
>
>
> Where in L.a. are you ( or are you at Cal arts
> only?)
>
> Brian Redfern wrote:
>
> >Or, you could just have them pull the frets off
> your
> >guitar. Paul Livingston (down here at calarts)
> plays
> >North Indian classical music on a fretless guitar.
> >
> >--- "petesfriedclams@..."
> ><petesfriedclams@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
> <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9
> pm Los Angeles
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

Hi Brian !
Another good way i have seen flutes made is by buying penny whistles and slowly heating up the metal till you can take the mouth piece off. Then you go to a hardware store and usually they have a little display of brass tubing and you buy the same size tube as the penny whistle and put on the removed mouth piece. I did this with Jim french. from there we had a set of drill bits of varying sizes and we put the hole under where he wanted his finger to be and made the hole from small to large till we got what we wanted. I wouldn't let him look at the pitch read out ( he has too good of ear and would bend it to what he wanted) and it took us about 8 hours to make one flute.
( if inclined you are more than welcome to come over and see the Meta-slendro instruments in have on hand-just contact me off list)

Brian Redfern wrote:

>That makes a lot of sense, people who learn fretless
>instruments like violin, cello, and bass are still
>playing on instruments designed for a standard
>intonation, where-as a fretted bass that's properly
>intonated for microtones will sound correct because
>its been intonated for a microtonal scale.
>
>I'm about to build some micrtotonal flutes, along the
>same idea, rather than try to bend a western flute to
>play microtones, I'm taking a technique I learned at
>school from Nyoman Wenten, some of their older bamboo
>sulings from Bali were cracking in the dry heat of
>Valencia, so Wenten's brother built sulings from PVC.
>What's interesting is that its possible to mess with
>the spacing and number of holes, along with the width
>of the PVC to make different variations.
>
>I already play traditional suling, and I'm working on
>some new stuff (now that I got my soundcard working),
>mixing some traditional suling with electronic
>microtones generated from csound.
>--- Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>
> >
>> >> Over the last 30 years i have seen all type of
>>instruments and those >>that really get people interested in new tunings are
>>those where someone >>can walk up to it and hear it right off. In the Case
>>of even this one >>refretted bass, it haas changed hands possibly 4
>>times now and has been >>instructive to all. More often than not, one is not
>>always sure about >>the intervals until one hears it enough times in the
>>timbre it is being >>used in. I have noticed quite a bit of difference in
>>the sound of ratios >>according to the instrument. Bottom line, one has to
>>hear the intervals >>before one plays them.
>> Ivor Derrig realized the importance of having
>>multiple guitars in as >>many different temperments as possible, to compare
>>and investigate.
>> We have 1,000 of fretless basses and not that
>>much microtonal music >>on them. A 1,000 microtonal basses and the world
>>would change.
>> >>
>>
>> Where in L.a. are you ( or are you at Cal arts
>>only?)
>>
>>Brian Redfern wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>>Or, you could just have them pull the frets off
>>> >>>
>>your
>> >>
>>>guitar. Paul Livingston (down here at calarts)
>>> >>>
>>plays
>> >>
>>>North Indian classical music on a fretless guitar.
>>>
>>>--- "petesfriedclams@..."
>>><petesfriedclams@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>-- >>Kraig Grady
>>North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
>><http://anaphoria.com/>
>>The Wandering Medicine Show
>>KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9
>>pm Los Angeles
>>
>>
>> >>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
>http://my.yahoo.com >
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Here's a little how-to if anyone is interested in
building their own PVC suling:

The standard medium sized suling from Bali is about
22cm long, 2.5 cm wide and the tube itself has a
thickness of about 3 cm.

The top of a bamboo suling ends with the joint of the
long section of the bamboo, but with a PVC suling you
get a piece of dowl about 2.25 cm in width that fits
into the end of the suling to provide a stopper.

On a bamboo suling there's a wooden ring that goes
around the end of the suling to provide the blowing
surface. With the PVC suling you get another piece of
PVC that's about .5cm long, 3.25cm wide and with a
thickness of .5cm.

The suling has six finger holes, the top hole starts
about 24.75cm from the top, the second hole is 2.5cm
from the end of the first hole (each hole is .7cm in
diameter) and the third hole is 2.7cm from the edge of
the second hole. The fourth hole is 5.2cm from the end
of the third, the fifth is 2.7cm from the fourth, and
the sixth hole is 2cm from the fifth.

The mouthpiece on the PVC suling is slightly different
than the bamboo, because there's no bamboo joint
sealing the end, you just cut the mouthpiece hole into
the end of the PVC, and its slightly longer than the
bamboo suling's mouthpiece.

Cut a rectangle 1.7cm in length, and .6cm wide, into
the end of the PVC that will be the top of the flute.
Then shave about a 3 degree slant onto the top of the
rectangle. Then the second short tube fits over the
end like a bamboo suling and you can drill the holes
for the fingers.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail