Godwin's Law

Wow that was fast. In *one day* we went from encouraging composing to
Hitler.

This is the very definition of Godwin's Law. See
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Godwin%27s%20law

Godwin stipulates: "As an online discussion grows longer, the
probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

Lighten up, gentlemen. Try not to be too defensive.

My composition teacher in college gave me that advice, when I defended
another one of my student pieces against his gentle criticism. He was
just trying to suggest another way of thinking about music that I may
not have thought about. He wasn't taking me out to be shot. We are not
out to get anyone. We may ocassionaly make suggestions. We all need
thicker skins.

References to Nazi's have never helped a discussion along.

Prent Rodgers

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Prent Rodgers"
<prentrodgers@c...> wrote:

> References to Nazi's have never helped a discussion along.

Which was my point. Sould we, especially given the history around
here, cite something which refers to music theorists as Nazis?

>> References to Nazi's have never helped a discussion along.
>
>Which was my point. Sould we, especially given the history around
>here, cite something which refers to music theorists as Nazis?

I find zero occurrences of the strings

nazi
hitler
fascist

in the visible portion of Kyle's blog.

Nevertheless, I did find Prent's message caustic and unproductive.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >> References to Nazi's have never helped a discussion along.
> >
> >Which was my point. Sould we, especially given the history around
> >here, cite something which refers to music theorists as Nazis?
>
> I find zero occurrences of the strings
>
> nazi
> hitler
> fascist
>
> in the visible portion of Kyle's blog.
>
> Nevertheless, I did find Prent's message caustic and unproductive.

Do you need to use one of those three words to reference Nazis and
invoke Godwin's Law? What you *will* find on the blog is this:

``Musical Josef Mengeles like Milton Babbitt and Alan Forte and Robert
Morris who tried to flense away the ligaments of language, the tendons
of cultural connotations, the muscles of synaesthaesia, and all the
skin of extra-mathematical supra-logical aspects from music left us
with set of bleached bones. The attempt to reduce music to dead math
and silent logic yielded unlistenable swill and unreadable jargon.''

Mengele may not be as famous a Nazi as Hitler, but he is notorious.

Here's the Wikipedia article on the man:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mengele

Gann's trope comparing Babbitt and Forte to this sadistic Nazi butcher
needs to be understood in context, the context being the
marginalization for a long period of non-serial music, and a music
world where joking references to music critics being "serial killers"
who would simply dismiss with contempt non-serial music like Gann's if
they bothered to review it at all have long been common.

That context is not this context. Here we have a group with a history
of sneering at, not composers like Gann, but "dabblers" like me who
commit the thought crime of using mathematical theory when composing,
and who compound their crime by not being professional musicans (most
of us are not, so far as I can see). Moreover, we are supposed to be
turning over a new leaf; I was hoping that leaf would be one where
microtonal composers were welcome simply because they were microtonal
composers, without having to show a union card. When our attention is
directed to a blog which dumps on mathematical techniques, and when we
are exhorted to forget about theory, it acquires a different
contextual meaning when we reference it to this group and its not
always pleasant history.

Gene opined,

> Gann's trope comparing Babbitt and Forte to this sadistic Nazi butcher
> needs to be understood in context,

And discussions of Nazis should probably go elsewhere. Even if someone's
blog talks about both tuning and Nazi butchers, let's only keep the tuning
part on this list. Take up Godwin's Law, Hitler, Nazis, and such stuff
elsewhere please.

Rick

> When our attention is directed to a blog which dumps on
> mathematical techniques

Then we need not bring our outrage *here*, but take it up with the blog
owner elsewhere.

Here at MMM, as Gene says:

> we are supposed to be turning over a new leaf; I was hoping that
> leaf would be one where : composers were welcome simply
> because they were microtonal composers

Yeah, me too.

Rick

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rick McGowan <rick@u...> wrote:
> > When our attention is directed to a blog which dumps on
> > mathematical techniques
>
> Then we need not bring our outrage *here*, but take it up with the
blog
> owner elsewhere.

I'm not upset with Gann; I am saying that referencing with approval a
blog which compares composer-theorists Babbitt and Morris to an
infamous Nazi and suggests there is something Nazi-like about applying
mathematical theories to musical composition is not a good idea on
this list, with its membership (which includes mathematically oriented
composer-theorists) and history. It invokes Godwin's Law, since
hyper-sensitive people like me may feel that being compared to a Nazi,
even without intent, is not something they prefer to have happen.
Prent invoked Godwin's Law, I responded, now you are screaming. This
is *why* Godwin pointed out that dragging Nazis in is a good way to
cause any discussion to melt down.

Gene wrote,

> I am saying that referencing with approval a
> blog which compares composer-theorists Babbitt and Morris to an
> infamous Nazi and suggests there is something Nazi-like about applying
> mathematical theories to musical composition is not a good idea on
> this list

Big deal. Slow down. Breathe. Let it go.

Referencing a tuning blog here, which happens to contain a reference to
something you don't like, was still OK. Blowing up a passing reference in
that blog into a big meta-discussion (not a tuning discussion!) *here* and
dragging Nazis into the picture *here* is just annoying and over-reacting.

Instead of doing that, just breathe a couple times and hit delete.

That's my opinion. Now, let's return to tuning, please.

Rick

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rick McGowan <rick@u...> wrote:

> Referencing a tuning blog here, which happens to contain a reference
to
> something you don't like, was still OK. Blowing up a passing
reference in
> that blog into a big meta-discussion (not a tuning discussion!)
*here* and
> dragging Nazis into the picture *here* is just annoying and
over-reacting.

Are you speaking as co-moderator here? Because this attitude, applied
to this list, is likely to come back and bite you; and if your intent
is to calm this discussion down, you are going about it in the
entirely the wrong way by both trivilizing and misconstruing what I said.

My gripe was not with Kyle Gann, who did not comment on
theorist-composers here, and said what he said in a different context.
Nor is it with Prent, who posted the blog reference but without noting
that it, as you put it, dragged in Nazis. However, it wasn't *me* who
dragged in Nazis, after all.

Gene,

> Are you speaking as co-moderator here?

Nope, I'm just speaking as a subscriber. If I ever have occasion to speak
as a moderator, I'll let you know.

Rick