Sampler

Does anyone know of an inexpensive software sampler that can be
retuned? It would need to be a Windows application, preferrable with
ASIO support. I would especially be interested in one that can use
scl or tun files. A VST Instrument would be ideal, but a stand alone
application would work. I think some of the higher end software
samplers are capable of this, but am not looking to spend a whole lot
if possible. I don't need a lot of advanced features.

Chris Miller

Chris,

Glad to have you.

{you wrote...}
>Does anyone know of an inexpensive software sampler that can be retuned?

In addition to Rick's suggestions, LinPlug's CronoX also plays back .wav samples, and uses the .tun format. I find it a very creative sample/synth unit, lots can be done with a fairly straightforward interface. This piece lies somewhere between a high-end sampler and a freebie like Helios.

I'm trying to get a couple different sample makers to get *real* tuning support. I'm hoping that I can convince Rene at rgc:audio to add support to the sfz+ SoundFont player. It can also import .wav files, and has very good sound quality. To really get a good representation you need multi-sample, multi-layer support, and this certainly seems like a good, low-cost solution if we can get him to add microtuning (as in their wonderful synth, z3ta+).

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"
<JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
>
> In addition to Rick's suggestions, LinPlug's CronoX also plays
back .wav
> samples, and uses the .tun format. I find it a very creative
sample/synth
> unit, lots can be done with a fairly straightforward interface.
This piece
> lies somewhere between a high-end sampler and a freebie like Helios.
>
> I'm trying to get a couple different sample makers to get *real*
tuning
> support. I'm hoping that I can convince Rene at rgc:audio to add
support to
> the sfz+ SoundFont player. It can also import .wav files, and has
very good
> sound quality. To really get a good representation you need multi-
sample,
> multi-layer support, and this certainly seems like a good, low-cost
> solution if we can get him to add microtuning (as in their
wonderful synth,
> z3ta+).
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

Do you know if Gigastudio or Kontakt are retunable? They're a little
out of my price range at the moment, but one of them might be a
future purchase.

Chris,

{you wrote...}
>Do you know if Gigastudio or Kontakt are retunable? They're a little out >of my price range at the moment, but one of them might be a future purchase.

I have never seen any indication Giga is. Kontakt, from what I can tell (see next bit) is in the 'you can tune the notes' category; they don't support any of the current standardized tuning files for import. They may (memory slipping) have a few built-in preset tunings, but I think most of us find that a lame nod at tuning. And there doesn't seem to be anyone who wants to implements a product-line-wide feature set for tunings.

(let me tell you: making demo versions match the most recent full versions is sometimes *not* the highest priority on a company's hot-list - I've only been able to glean implementation by documentation)

Alison, you out there? I thought Alison had gotten Kontakt to work with her electro-acoustic excursions. But if there is anyone else with real *hands on* experience, chime in...

Cheers,
Jon

>Do you know if Gigastudio or Kontakt are retunable?
>They're a little out of my price range at the moment,
>but one of them might be a future purchase.

Thought I remembered Gigastudio was tunable. It's
not in the microtonal-synthesis database, but here's
what MicroZone-keyboard-owner Chris Mohr had to say
on tuning...

""I never did get the Kurzweil connection to play the
music; instead I got Gigastudio. That's been tough,
because I have to manually tune every note of every
instrument. I've found some shortcuts so tuning a
single instrument now takes about an hour.""

Patrick Grant also uses it; he may know.

Tascam's website is useless.

I had kinda thought all NI stuff was tunable, but maybe
that's not right either. Again, I didn't find any way
to download the manual from their website, but I wrote
them for more info. Kontakt isn't in the microtonal-
synthesis database.

-Carl

Carl,

{you wrote...}
>That's been tough, because I have to manually tune every note of every >instrument. I've found some shortcuts so tuning a single instrument now >takes about an hour.

That doesn't seem any better than creating an entire sample set for any sampler out there. One merely would take multiple samples and then adjust pitch and save as new notes. But either method means not only a lot more work, but no immediate feedback if you come up with a new tuning. Not good enough, I say, if one wants to explore. But if you settle on a particular tuning, nothing will get you as good a sound as custom crafting the sample set itself.

I'm really impressed with the sound *quality* of rgc:audio's sfz+ soundfont player. I hadn't given soundfonts a lot of credit, but this thing took a single wave file and did a pretty damn good job of transposing without too much artifacts. I'll see if I can't cajole a use of microtuning...

Cheers,
Jon

Does anyone know of an inexpensive software sampler that can be
retuned? It would need to be a Windows application, preferrable with
ASIO support. I would especially be interested in one that can use
scl or tun files. A VST Instrument would be ideal, but a stand alone
application would work. I think some of the higher end software
samplers are capable of this, but am not looking to spend a whole lot
if possible. I don't need a lot of advanced features.

Chris Miller

>I had kinda thought all NI stuff was tunable, but maybe
>that's not right either. Again, I didn't find any way
>to download the manual from their website, but I wrote
>them for more info. Kontakt isn't in the microtonal-
>synthesis database.

This just in from Native Instruments...

""
Dear Carl,

Kontakt is not able to load .tun files.
I´m sorry but we do not deliver manuals without the product.

best regards
Jan
""

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
>
> This just in from Native Instruments...
>
> ""
> Dear Carl,
>
> Kontakt is not able to load .tun files.
> I´m sorry but we do not deliver manuals without the product.
>
> best regards
> Jan
> ""
>
> -Carl

Thanks! You wouldn't think it would be such a big deal to add tuning
support to a soft synth, especially a higher end one like Kontakt. I
guess not enough people ask them for it.

Chris,

{you wrote...}
>Thanks! You wouldn't think it would be such a big deal to add tuning >support to a soft synth, especially a higher end one like Kontakt. I >guess not enough people ask them for it.

I know you are a pretty recent member, but one of the things that has been nice to see is that a few of the members of MMM, by working closely with developers, have actually been catalysts for tuning to be an added feature. It is very much the case that you just don't simply ask for the tuning support, but you show them why it is important, point to music that uses these features, give them background on file formats, etc. You help them work it out a bit, and likelihood of inclusion goes up.

It also seems that this is a bottom-up situation, as the small developers seem both more approachable and more interested in a niche feature like microtuning support. The big boys have no interest, they just want to move units, and they'll include the feature set that appeals to the most common audience.

The weird thing is a company like NI: FM7 supports microtuning, Absynth has a few presets and a promised internal tuning editor (hell, just import one of the file formats!), Kontakt or Kompakt supposedly has *some* internal tuning feature, and the other fine instruments have none at all. No company-wide vision on this aspect.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "zquatch" <zquatch@y...> wrote:
> Does anyone know of an inexpensive software sampler that can be
> retuned? It would need to be a Windows application, preferrable
with
> ASIO support. I would especially be interested in one that can use
> scl or tun files. A VST Instrument would be ideal, but a stand

How about LinPlug's CronoX? LinPlug has a good track record of
making good, microtunable VSTis and CronoX is no exception.

http://www.linplug.com/Products/CronoX/cronox.htm

Paolo

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "paolovalladolid" <phv40@h...>
>
> How about LinPlug's CronoX? LinPlug has a good track record of
> making good, microtunable VSTis and CronoX is no exception.
>
> http://www.linplug.com/Products/CronoX/cronox.htm
>
> Paolo

I think I'm going to try that. There's a demo. I didn't get home in
time last night to install it and try, but it looks like what I want,
a simple sampler with tuning support, and the price looks right.

I would like to have a program that works like a tracker (like
Impulse Tracker or Buzz or Fast Tracker) that can load scales as well
as allow for different notations and not simply remap the 12 notes.

Chris,

{you wrote...}
>I think I'm going to try that. There's a demo. I didn't get home in time >last night to install it and try, but it looks like what I want, a simple >sampler with tuning support, and the price looks right.

If you don't need multi-sample approaches (either spread across the kbd or layer samples) it will probably work just fine. Just last night I sampled a favorite sound from my JV-1080 and plugged it into CronoX, and it happens just like that. I could upload a short demo file if you wanted an example.

>I would like to have a program that works like a tracker (like Impulse >Tracker or Buzz or Fast Tracker) that can load scales as well as allow for >different notations and not simply remap the 12 notes.

I'm not clear on what you are talking about here. CronoX uses the .tun format, which you can make with Scala and have a universe of tunings. In the .pdf manual that comes with CronoX there is an addendum chapter by Jacky Ligon on how to do all this; loading a file is a simple 2 or 3 click process.

Cheers,
Jon

Hi zquatch,

> > How about LinPlug's CronoX? LinPlug has a good track record of
> > making good, microtunable VSTis and CronoX is no exception.
> > http://www.linplug.com/Products/CronoX/cronox.htm
> > Paolo
>
> I think I'm going to try that. There's a demo. I didn't get home
> in time last night to install it and try, but it looks like what I
> want, a simple sampler with tuning support, and the price
> looks right.

Some suggestions:
Take a look at their KVR forum where you'll find useful topics:
<http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=10>
And this site in general for the news, the Bank/Patches section...
You have to register to login but it's free, and no spam!
Just for info, I recommand the optional CronoX 'Soundsets'.

> I would like to have a program that works like a tracker (like
> Impulse Tracker or Buzz or Fast Tracker) that can load scales
> as well as allow for different notations and not simply remap
> the 12 notes.

With CronoX (like Albino and the new Alpha), just click the
LinPlug logo or the logoname of the synth: you get the rear
pannel where you load any tun file format.
However, this dialog allows to load any kind of text file.
In theory, no risk to crash the host application but we never know.
So, take care to load .tun files only.
You can run so many instances that you need, each one with a
different tuning, and the ability to load any other scale at any time
without closing the synth nor quitting the host application.

About this format, you can create your own scales with Scala on
Windows and 'Max Magic Microtuner' on Mac:
</16tone/>

A very useful "Tutorial for creating TUN files with Scala"
written by Jacky Ligon:
<http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/Scala_TUN_Tutorial.pdf>

Cheers,
Phi

Hi Chris,

> I would like to have a program that works like a tracker
> (like Impulse Tracker or Buzz or Fast Tracker) that can load scales

Do you mean a sort of 'scale manager'?

> as well as allow for different notations

About solfegic notations, Sybelius and Finale offer some quite
good options to displays micro-intervals.

Jon wrote:
> CronoX uses the .tun format, which you can make with Scala

And "Magic Max Microtuner" on Mac OS 9 and X:
</16tone/>

> In the .pdf manual that comes with CronoX there is an
> addendum chapter by Jacky Ligon on how to do all this

You'll also find it here:
<http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/Scala_TUN_Tutorial.pdf>

Best,
Phi

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Philip"
<philippe.gruchet@f...> wrote:
> Hi Chris,
>
> > I would like to have a program that works like a tracker
> > (like Impulse Tracker or Buzz or Fast Tracker) that can load
scales
>
> Do you mean a sort of 'scale manager'?
>
> > as well as allow for different notations
>
> About solfegic notations, Sybelius and Finale offer some quite
> good options to displays micro-intervals.
>
> Jon wrote:
> > CronoX uses the .tun format, which you can make with Scala
>
> And "Magic Max Microtuner" on Mac OS 9 and X:
> </16tone/>
>
> > In the .pdf manual that comes with CronoX there is an
> > addendum chapter by Jacky Ligon on how to do all this
>
> You'll also find it here:
> <http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/Scala_TUN_Tutorial.pdf>
>
> Best,
> Phi

Most of the programs that let you retune them, still use MIDI input,
and are remapped based on 12 note scales. A tracker is a type of
sequencer (that often has a built in sampler), that has multiple
channels w/ note data, volume, commands, etc. Basically I'd be
interested in a sequencer that allows for non-12 notation,
preferrable in a tracker style layout.

http://umn.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/ztracker/zt-0.90-patteditor-
pa.jpg is an example of a tracker, it is the ZTracker program, which
does MIDI only.

Chris,

{you wrote...}
>Most of the programs that let you retune them, still use MIDI input, and >are remapped based on 12 note scales.

That isn't true - there are now a good number of plugin synths that allow any number of notes to be tuned, not restricted to 12 note scales (when you say "most of the programs", it is hard to tell if you mean tracker/sequencers, or the synths that actually make the sound; I'm inferring the latter).

>A tracker is a type of sequencer (that often has a built in sampler), that >has multiple channels w/ note data, volume, commands, etc. Basically I'd >be interested in a sequencer that allows for non-12 notation, preferrable >in a tracker style layout.

Ahhhh. I wasn't hip to tracker technology, which is basically a pattern-edit based sequencer made to use with soundcards, including built-in sounds. Right?

Any of the VST instruments that have been discussed here can be used in traditional MIDI-based pattern sequencer. The one that comes to mind most frequently is Fruity Loops. But there isn't ANY sequencer that I know of (unless there are some open source ones out there, really hidden...) that has flexible enough notation for non12. And as for trackers, they seem pointed at a user base that isn't going to be going beyond the bounds of 12, and you'd have to find someone that would be interested in that kind of functionality.

Man, I'd love to help, but I hope you realize you've got a few issues happening at once: you want non12 (we can do), you'd like notation (ummm, maybe in a couple of ways), and you want a tracker-style interface (if you go the step-sequence route, there are lots out there that can do it along with soft instruments). But putting that all together in one package may be a difficult deal.

There are a few environments floating around out there that you can patch objects together to create a lot of what you want (Bidule - http://www.plogue.com/ or energyXT - http://www.xt-hq.com/ - or maybe the VAZ modular system would do what you want - [have to Google it...]). But none of these will go into notation.

But if you want a tracker that can do non12, I'm betting that is going to be a real, real challenge to find. Are there tracking newsgroups, forums, etc?

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto" >
> Ahhhh. I wasn't hip to tracker technology, which is basically a
> pattern-edit based sequencer made to use with soundcards, including
> built-in sounds. Right?
>

Exactly, it's a type of pattern based sequencer, usually used to play
back samples.

> Any of the VST instruments that have been discussed here can be
used in
> traditional MIDI-based pattern sequencer. The one that comes to
mind most
> frequently is Fruity Loops. But there isn't ANY sequencer that I
know of
> (unless there are some open source ones out there, really
hidden...) that
> has flexible enough notation for non12. And as for trackers, they
seem
> pointed at a user base that isn't going to be going beyond the
bounds of
> 12, and you'd have to find someone that would be interested in that
kind of
> functionality.
>
> Man, I'd love to help, but I hope you realize you've got a few
issues
> happening at once: you want non12 (we can do), you'd like notation
(ummm,
> maybe in a couple of ways), and you want a tracker-style interface
(if you
> go the step-sequence route, there are lots out there that can do it
along
> with soft instruments). But putting that all together in one
package may be
> a difficult deal.
>

Are there simply non 12 sequencers? That would do the trick, the
tracker style interface is just a preference, I wouldn't mind using
step sequencers or other types of sequencers. It's also not
necessary, just that it would be easier then having to figure which
note is which. I'm pretty sure there aren't any programs that
currently do what exactly what I want, but I thought it would be
worth mentioning in case I was incorrect, as I was on the sampler,
since CronoX looks to be exactly what I want for that.

> There are a few environments floating around out there that you can
patch
> objects together to create a lot of what you want (Bidule -
> http://www.plogue.com/ or energyXT - http://www.xt-hq.com/ - or
maybe the
> VAZ modular system would do what you want - [have to Google
it...]). But
> none of these will go into notation.
>
> But if you want a tracker that can do non12, I'm betting that is
going to
> be a real, real challenge to find. Are there tracking newsgroups,
forums, etc?
>

I'm positive you're correct on this, I've thought about trying to
make such a program, but am not the best programmer, someday I may
try to tackle that. I know someone who has VAZ modular, and it almost
does what I would want.

> Cheers,
> Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto"
<JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> Man, I'd love to help, but I hope you realize you've got a few issues
> happening at once: you want non12 (we can do), you'd like notation
(ummm,
> maybe in a couple of ways), and you want a tracker-style interface
(if you
> go the step-sequence route, there are lots out there that can do it
along
> with soft instruments). But putting that all together in one package
may be
> a difficult deal.

If you are willing to forgo the tracker/sequencer interface, and work
instead via score files, Scala has non12 and flexible notation
capabilities.

Hi zquatch,

> A tracker is a type of sequencer (that often has a built in
> sampler), that has multiple channels w/ note data, volume,
> commands, etc. Basically I'd be interested in a sequencer
> that allows for non-12 notation, preferrable in a tracker
> style layout.
>
<http://umn.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/ztracke
r/zt-0.90-patteditor-pa.jpg>
> is an example of a tracker, it is the ZTracker program,
> which does MIDI only.

Many thanks for this screenshot! I understand now.
I don't think you'll find a such built-in software... :-(
Doable with Max/MSP from Cycling 74
(based on lcd drawings for pitch monitoring):
<http://www.cycling74.com/>

HTH,
Philippe

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "zquatch" <zquatch@y...> wrote:
> Are there simply non 12 sequencers? That would do the trick, the

What do you mean by "non-12 sequencer"?

James Coker, developmer of Numerology (a soft sequencer inspired by
analog sequencers), has expressed interest in incorporating
microtuning into Numerology. He would probably do it via MIDI pitch
bend messages, unless there's something in the Audio Unit standard
that would allow Numerology to bypass MIDI in talking to its Audio
Unit plugins. It's a Mac OS X only application, however.

Paolo