Re: [MMM] Digest Number 868 -Equable Diatonic

Unless we are deliberately archaizing, there is no reason for us not to
permute the
intervals of any historical scale if doing so suits our musical needs
and purposes.
The Islamic writers, particularly Safiyu-Din (transliterations vary)
discussed all six
forms of the general tetrachord, though it is not clear how many of
these were actually
used in Arabic musical practice. IIRC, after pages of tables of permuted
tetrachords,
S said that only those approximated by the 17-tone cycle of fifths scale
were in use in
his day.

In general, the Greeks put the smallest intervals at the bottom of the
tetrachord and the
largest on top, though there are are exceptions such as Archytas's
28/27 x 8/7 x 9/8, 28/27 x 36/35 x 5/4, and Didymos's 16/15 x 25/24 x
6/5. In these cases, the choice of the first interval
may have depended upon the interval it made with a note a 9/8 below the
first note of the tetrachord (mese for the diezeugmenon tetrachord,
proslambanomenos for hypaton, and an extra note, diatonic lichanos
hypaton or hyperhypate, for the meson). The use of this composite
interval appears to have been a standard stylistic feature of music in
the enharmonic and chromatic genera.

There is good reason to believe that the so-called "Pythagorean" tuning
of the diatonic
genus was the oldest scale in Greek art music (see Franklin's
dissertation) and that the enharmonic derived from 5-toned folk scales
of the semitone-Major third (ditone) type.
This scale is derivable from the diatonic by gapping, of course. The
chromatic genus developed
from the enharmonic, which became heptatonic only around the end of the
4th century BCE and
the beginning of the 3rd. Stopping half-way between the enharmonic and
chromatic produces
Aristoxenos's hemiolic chromatic (75 + 75 + 350 cents), giving another
example of the neutral third.

I suggest that the neutral diatonic type of scale such as Ptolemy's
Equable or Even Diatonic, Al-Farabi's reduplicated 3/4-tone genera, etc.
are not Greek, but possibly of African or Arabian origin. I think
Ptolemy heard them in Alexandria, which was the most cosmopolitan city
in the eastern Mediterranean area in the 2nd century CE. In addition to
large Greek and Egyptian population, there were Romans, Jews, Arabs,
Ethiopians, Persians, etc., and even Buddhist missionaries from India
living and trading there.

--John

Hello John!
You are probably right on this but Having a large collection of African
music i cannot tell you how many times i have heard things that sounded
like Ancient greet artifacts. Now this might be caused by an influence of
greek culture on african or possibly we might consider that the greek which
appear to import instruments (such as the aulos) might have had a taste for
other instruments and instruments from the south. Compare a lyre to a kora
and any of the many african plucked instruments. I also by the way find
Ptolemy's Equable or Even Diatonic like scales in Scandinavian countries
also. A lot of time has passed since ancient greece

John Chalmers wrote:

>
>
> I suggest that the neutral diatonic type of scale such as Ptolemy's
> Equable or Even Diatonic, Al-Farabi's reduplicated 3/4-tone genera, etc.
> are not Greek, but possibly of African or Arabian origin. I think
> Ptolemy heard them in Alexandria, which was the most cosmopolitan city
> in the eastern Mediterranean area in the 2nd century CE. In addition to
> large Greek and Egyptian population, there were Romans, Jews, Arabs,
> Ethiopians, Persians, etc., and even Buddhist missionaries from India
> living and trading there.
>
> --John
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

John Chalmers wrote:

> Unless we are deliberately archaizing,

As Gordon Mumma says, "you can't have archaic and eat it, too".

DJW

Going through a bunch of files this weekend, I came across a set of scores that I computer-notated for Ivor Darreg (one of those projects that never got really finished --) while in So. Cal. in 1986-7. Among the scores were two guitar preludes, #1 (in 19) and #3 (in 31, but also "available in 19") . Does anyone know about the missing #2? I don't recall ever having heard it, suppose it might be in 22, but in any case would like to have the whole set, if possible. Any help would be appreciated in locating this.

Thanks in advance,

DJW

On the Detwelvulate! CD there is a "Prelude No. 2 for 19-Tone Guitar" -
could this be it? Did Ivor only do one set of guitar preludes? It's got
an Andante 3/4 feel, open D sort of tuning...sound familiar?

It's possible I could transcribe it.

Jacob

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@a...>
wrote:
> Going through a bunch of files this weekend, I came across a set of
> scores that I computer-notated for Ivor Darreg (one of those projects
> that never got really finished --) while in So. Cal. in 1986-7. Among
> the scores were two guitar preludes, #1 (in 19) and #3 (in 31, but also
> "available in 19") . Does anyone know about the missing #2? I don't
> recall ever having heard it, suppose it might be in 22, but in any case
> would like to have the whole set, if possible. Any help would be
> appreciated in locating this.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> DJW

That Darreg CD also has a synth piece that's not in the tuning it
claims to be in. This was discussed on the tuning list years ago,
where analysis of a sound sample revealed 24-equal to be the actual
tuning (the advertised tuning was 17-equal, IIRC) . . .

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jacob" <jbarton@r...> wrote:
> On the Detwelvulate! CD there is a "Prelude No. 2 for 19-Tone
Guitar" -
> could this be it? Did Ivor only do one set of guitar preludes? It's
got
> an Andante 3/4 feel, open D sort of tuning...sound familiar?
>
> It's possible I could transcribe it.
>
> Jacob
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@a...>
> wrote:
> > Going through a bunch of files this weekend, I came across a set
of
> > scores that I computer-notated for Ivor Darreg (one of those
projects
> > that never got really finished --) while in So. Cal. in 1986-7.
Among
> > the scores were two guitar preludes, #1 (in 19) and #3 (in 31,
but also
> > "available in 19") . Does anyone know about the missing #2? I
don't
> > recall ever having heard it, suppose it might be in 22, but in
any case
> > would like to have the whole set, if possible. Any help would be
> > appreciated in locating this.
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> >
> > DJW

I think Brian McLaren would have it if anyone. do you want me to ask him?

Daniel Wolf wrote:

> Going through a bunch of files this weekend, I came across a set of
> scores that I computer-notated for Ivor Darreg (one of those projects
> that never got really finished --) while in So. Cal. in 1986-7. Among
> the scores were two guitar preludes, #1 (in 19) and #3 (in 31, but also
> "available in 19") . Does anyone know about the missing #2? I don't
> recall ever having heard it, suppose it might be in 22, but in any case
> would like to have the whole set, if possible. Any help would be
> appreciated in locating this.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> DJW
>
>
> [MMM info]------------------------------------------------------
> More MMM music files are at http://www.microtonal.org/music.html
> ------------------------------------------------------[MMM info]
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

kraig grady wrote:

> I think XXXXXXXXXX would have it if anyone. do you want me to ask him?
>
Thanks for the offer, but I'd prefer to wait and see if someone else has it first. It's very strange that I don't have the 2nd Prelude -- the first was published in Xenharmonikon, the third in PFO.

DJW

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@a...>
wrote:
> kraig grady wrote:
>
> > I think XXXXXXXXXX would have it if anyone. do you want me to ask
him?
> >
> Thanks for the offer, but I'd prefer to wait and see if someone
else has
> it first. It's very strange that I don't have the 2nd Prelude --
the
> first was published in Xenharmonikon, the third in PFO.
>
> DJW

As I recall, the Prelude in 19-equal (#2, I think) was published in
Guitar Player magazine. What's PFO?

Paul Erlich wrote:

> st. It's very strange that I don't have the 2nd Prelude --
> the
> > first was published in Xenharmonikon, the third in PFO.
> >
> > DJW
>
> As I recall, the Prelude in 19-equal (#2, I think) was published in
> Guitar Player magazine. What's PFO?
>
Does anyone have a copy of that issue of Guitar Player? PFO was a very private journal of new music scores. Each issue had only as many copies as there were contributors. Some interesting stuff -- Mumma's Octal Waltz (in 8et), Leedy's Watergate Rounds ("What did the president know and when did he know it?", "I am not a crook", "We could do it... but it would be wrong, wrong, wrong.", all set as rounds that would've made Purcell envious), some Darreg, and further arcana from the left coast.

DJW

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@a...>
wrote:
> Paul Erlich wrote:
>
> > st. It's very strange that I don't have the 2nd Prelude --
> > the
> > > first was published in Xenharmonikon, the third in PFO.
> > >
> > > DJW
> >
> > As I recall, the Prelude in 19-equal (#2, I think) was published
in
> > Guitar Player magazine. What's PFO?
> >
> Does anyone have a copy of that issue of Guitar Player?

According to the big bibliography:

http://www.xs4all.nl/%7Ehuygensf/doc/bib.html

it was the February '78 issue. I recently inherited a huge stack of
70's GPs . . . I'll check when I get home.

> it was the February '78 issue. I recently inherited a huge
> stack of 70's GPs . . . I'll check when I get home.

http://lumma.org/tuning/Ivor-GP-Feb78.pdf

-Carl

> http://lumma.org/tuning/Ivor-GP-Feb78.pdf

The article says,
Continued on page 82!!

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <ekin@l...> wrote:
> > it was the February '78 issue. I recently inherited a huge
> > stack of 70's GPs . . . I'll check when I get home.
>
> http://lumma.org/tuning/Ivor-GP-Feb78.pdf
>
> -Carl

How'd ya find it? This is good news for Daniel!!

> > > it was the February '78 issue. I recently inherited a huge
> > > stack of 70's GPs . . . I'll check when I get home.
> >
> > http://lumma.org/tuning/Ivor-GP-Feb78.pdf
> >
> > -Carl
>
> How'd ya find it? This is good news for Daniel!!

It's a Secret. :)

-Carl

> > http://lumma.org/tuning/Ivor-GP-Feb78.pdf
>
> The article says,
> Continued on page 82!!

D'oh! And it's interspersed over four or five more
pages after that, to p. 96 or so. I skimmed this
and didn't see any more info on the prelude. I'll
try and get the remainder scanned for those interested...

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@a...>
wrote:
> John Chalmers wrote:
>
> > Unless we are deliberately archaizing,
>
> As Gordon Mumma says, "you can't have archaic and eat it, too".

You can in ancient greet.

Thanks to everyone, especially Carl Lumma, for help with this thread. I'm now trying to reconstruct how Darreg took a prelude in one temperament and converted it into another temperament through extending the metre to accomodate extra "chromatics".

DJW