Re: Welcome back, Margo

Hello Aaron Johnson, and everyone, and thank you for your most
gracious greeting.

What I want to do before it gets too late tonight is to acknowledge
your welcome, and also share some very early compositional or
improvisational impressions of 14-tET, a compact system which, as
Brian McLaren very accurately predicted when he urged me to consider
it, beautifully serves my style of music.

Reflecting on my impressions of sitting at a keyboard, actually two
twelve-note manuals, with an accidental mapping like one possibility
for the Lucca organ of the 1480's, based on the "predicted" intervals
in relation to C or F and often rather less familiar relations of
"interval geometry" otherwise, I consider some basic questions of what
might be called "compositional theory," the fine art of deciding where
one's next sonority or progression is coming from.

Wow! -- this is like 17-tET or a 17-note well-temperament like George
Secor's 17-WT somehow condensed to 14 notes, with some fascinating
transformations of the musical geometry, and some features of 22-tET
or 29-tET thrown in, much adding to the fun. A thirdtone system in 14
notes rather than 17 with three varieties of thirds or sixths; an
outstanding major third to which Brian McLaren rightly called my
attention; and fine 86-cent semitones of the kind that a string player
(bowed European violin or plucked Japanese koto) could love even
without my specifically medievalist inclinations regarding vertical
cadences and the like.

With 14-tET, as people might guess, I was confronted with a
precompositional or pre-improvisational "performance practice":
choosing a timbre to make those 8/14 octave fifths (~686 cents) and
6/14 octave fourths (~514 cents) the "perfect concords" which my
musical style calls for.

My quick solution that first night (Monday) was a preset timbre on the
Yahama TX-802 called "Puff Pipes" (A56); I also tried a Marimba voice
for more of a gamelan texture, which could be neat with a beautiful
pelog that 14-tET supports (more below). This let me start my
exploration at a point where things were "smooth enough for the
moment," although I might look forward to play around in quest of a
bit more smoothness and resonance.

My slightly more customized but still rather "crude" solution the next
day was to take a timbre I had set up for 13-tET, and adjust the
settings of partials for the 14-tET fifth or twelfth (a ratio of about
2.97 for the twelfth in comparison to 3.00 for a pure twelfth).

This got to things to a nice point: a certain resonant quality to
those fifths and twelfths, maybe especially when the octave helped out
in a complete trine (a 2:3:4 sonority, with the fifth below the
fourth, or 0-8-14 steps in 14-tET). However, even with the "off the
shelf" Puff Pipes the first night, things were quite tolerable: while
comparisons are difficult, I'd say it was possibly comparable to
meantone fifths in a bright timbre.

Of course, getting the stable concords is just the beginning of the
story, a kind of prerequisite preparation: there are all those juicy
imperfect concords, and I was ready to try them!

By the way, Aaron and others, the timbre factor is the one reason that
I'm using ASCII notation rather than MIDI files, specifying the notes
and cautioning that this is highly timbre-sensitive. A tape or CD or
audio soundfile, of course, is the best documentation.

To start out, one of the first things I did in 14-tET, not
unpredictably, was to try this cadence:

21 22
13 14
2 0

It was beautiful, and very familiar: a major sixth (11 steps, 2-13)
expanding to an octave (0-14), and a major tenth (19 steps, 2-21)
expanding to a twelfth (0-22). My reaction: "This could be Notre Dame
Cathedral in 1350": it sounds fitting, classic, and _right_!

By this way, this style of notation takes the lowest note of the
resolving interval or chord as step "0"; it shows the pitches in a
straightforward manner, at least, and spares the reader some
entanglement in my curious keyboard mapping.

Well, it seems that a distinctly "xenharmonic" temperament like 14-tET
can tune some basic intervals harmoniously (with a conducive timbre,
of course, a qualification applying to many musical situations to one
degree or another) and bring off a standard cadence. While the
428-cent major third is within a "standard" range, and quite superb,
the 942-cent major sixth might be considered a bit wider than the run
of the mill -- but the intervals fit together flawlessly.

Now for an experiment I've been waiting to try, something I guess
will delight me, but wonder just how it will sound:

10 8
7 8
2 0
-1 0

This is a gorgeous "minor seventh quad," as I call it, with the outer
minor seventh (11 steps) contracting to a stable fifth, and those
minor thirds (3 steps) contracting to unisons, while the middle major
third (5 steps) expands to a fifth: it's warm, suave, and sweet, just
as in a JI tuning like my Sesquisexta (where that seventh sonority is
a pure 12:14:18:21), or a more conventional temperament like HTT-29,
Peppermint, or 17-WT.

How cozy and familiar and homelike this feels -- that's my main
artistic judgment. It is an enjoyment of shear beauty joined to
analytical wonder: this hospitable sonority has as its minor seventh
the same 11-step interval that provided the charmingly expansive major
sixth of my previous example. As I had guessed, that 943-cent interval
could most happily fit both roles. In a JI system like Sesquisexta,
we'd use two separate intervals: a 12:7 major sixth around 933 cents,
and a 7:4 minor seventh around 969 cents, with values near these in
tempered systems seeking closely to emulate this kind of JI.

A bit of further experimenting confirmed that the 11-step interval
tends to take on the color of either a major sixth or minor seventh,
depending on the intervals with which it is associated in a given
sonority or progression. I'll give more examples in my next report.

In the meantone -- or meantime, a "slip of the keyboard" I've made an
idiom of sorts -- thank you, Aaron, for your welcome, and I'm looking
forward to lots of compositional/improvisational dialogue.

Oh, yes -- here's that pelog, as promised, actually two variations:

0 1 6 8 9 14
0 86 514 686 771 1200
1 5 2 1 5
86 429 171 86 429

or

0 1 3 8 9 14
0 86 257 686 771 1200
1 2 5 1 5
86 171 429 86 429

In conventional notation we might write E-F-A-B-C-E and E-F-G-B-C-E,
respectively, and that happens to be my keyboard mapping; they're
beautiful scales.

Most appreciatively,

Margo Schulter
mschulter@...

Margo Schulter wrote:

> forward to lots of compositional/improvisational dialogue.
>
> Oh, yes -- here's that pelog, as promised, actually two variations:
>
> 0 1 6 8 9 14
> 0 86 514 686 771 1200
> 1 5 2 1 5
> 86 429 171 86 429
>
> or
>
> 0 1 3 8 9 14
> 0 86 257 686 771 1200
> 1 2 5 1 5
> 86 171 429 86 429
>
Margo:

You might consider calling the first tuning a "sorog" and the second "degung", as they are both closer to these Sundanese tunings than to pelogs, for which I find the 86 cent interval to be too small for the isolated two note segment of the scale.

Best regards

Daniel Wolf

Hello Daniel.
Could you possibly expand upon the differences between the Pelog on
one side and Sorog and Degung on the other if possible.

Daniel Wolf wrote:

> Margo Schulter wrote:
>
> > forward to lots of compositional/improvisational dialogue.
> >
> > Oh, yes -- here's that pelog, as promised, actually two variations:
> >
> > 0 1 6 8 9 14
> > 0 86 514 686 771 1200
> > 1 5 2 1 5
> > 86 429 171 86 429
> >
> > or
> >
> > 0 1 3 8 9 14
> > 0 86 257 686 771 1200
> > 1 2 5 1 5
> > 86 171 429 86 429
> >
> Margo:
>
> You might consider calling the first tuning a "sorog" and the second
> "degung", as they are both closer to these Sundanese tunings than to
> pelogs, for which I find the 86 cent interval to be too small for the
> isolated two note segment of the scale.
>
> Best regards
>
> Daniel Wolf
>
> [MMM info]------------------------------------------------------
> More MMM music files are at http://www.microtonal.org/music.html
> ------------------------------------------------------[MMM info]
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

kraig grady wrote:

> Hello Daniel.
> Could you possibly expand upon the differences between the Pelog on
> one side and Sorog and Degung on the other if possible.
>

There are two features of degung/sorog that are strikingly different from pelog. The first feature, and the one that applies to Margo's scales, is the division of the three-tone sub-group into an approximately 2:1 proportion. If the smaller interval is on the bottom, it's degung, if it's on the top, it's sorog ("sorog" means substitute, and some gamelan degung have extra, replaceable sorog keys, so that the players can modulate into sorog during a performance). The second feature of the degung/sorog is that they can be heard as a slendro with some altered tones. I think this applies less well here as the fifths are narrow, but, and strictly off the top of my head, it might work if you built a slendro out of 28tet, e.g. 0-5-11-17-22-28 or 0-5-10-17-22-28.

DJW

Hey,

Margo Schulter provided us with a wonderful snapshot of what can be done in
her neo-medieval-fetish world with 14-tet. (snippets from the posting in
question below)....

I thought I'd help out the sonics of this experiment by providing a MIDI and
mp3 synth sample of the examples below. You can download them from the MMM
group 'files' section. Look for a listing like 'margo_14_tet_examples.mid'
and '......mp3'.

My apologies to Margo for attempting what she might do in 14-tet with
*inharmonic* timbres with *harmonic* timbres!!!! (It still sounds relatively
consonant to my ears, albeit xentonally so)

Best,
--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.dividebypi.com
http://www.akjmusic.com

On Friday 30 April 2004 02:52 am, Margo Schulter wrote:
> To start out, one of the first things I did in 14-tET, not
> unpredictably, was to try this cadence:
>
> 21 22
> 13 14
> 2 0
>
> It was beautiful, and very familiar: a major sixth (11 steps, 2-13)
> expanding to an octave (0-14), and a major tenth (19 steps, 2-21)
> expanding to a twelfth (0-22). My reaction: "This could be Notre Dame
> Cathedral in 1350": it sounds fitting, classic, and _right_!

> (snip)

> Now for an experiment I've been waiting to try, something I guess
> will delight me, but wonder just how it will sound:
>
> 10 8
> 7 8
> 2 0
> -1 0

> snip

> Oh, yes -- here's that pelog, as promised, actually two variations:
>
> 0 1 6 8 9 14
> 0 86 514 686 771 1200
> 1 5 2 1 5
> 86 429 171 86 429
>
> or
>
> 0 1 3 8 9 14
> 0 86 257 686 771 1200
> 1 2 5 1 5
> 86 171 429 86 429
>
> In conventional notation we might write E-F-A-B-C-E and E-F-G-B-C-E,
> respectively, and that happens to be my keyboard mapping; they're
> beautiful scales.

Daniel Wolf wrote:

> kraig grady wrote:
>
> > Hello Daniel.
> > Could you possibly expand upon the differences between the Pelog on
> > one side and Sorog and Degung on the other if possible.
> >
>
> There are two features of degung/sorog that are strikingly different
> from pelog. The first feature, and the one that applies to Margo's
> scales, is the division of the three-tone sub-group into an
> approximately 2:1 proportion.

This proportion would be larger or smaller with Pelog?

> If the smaller interval is on the
> bottom, it's degung, if it's on the top, it's sorog ("sorog" means
> substitute, and some gamelan degung have extra, replaceable sorog keys,
> so that the players can modulate into sorog during a performance). The
> second feature of the degung/sorog is that they can be heard as a
> slendro with some altered tones. I think this applies less well here as
> the fifths are narrow, but, and strictly off the top of my head, it
> might work if you built a slendro out of 28tet, e.g. 0-5-11-17-22-28 or
> 0-5-10-17-22-28.

interesting how these two go from
S L S L L
S S L S L
By changing only a single tone
Thanks this is helpful

>
>
> DJW
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
>
>
> Daniel Wolf wrote:
>
> > kraig grady wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Daniel.
> > > Could you possibly expand upon the differences between the
Pelog on
> > > one side and Sorog and Degung on the other if possible.
> > >
> >
> > There are two features of degung/sorog that are strikingly
different
> > from pelog. The first feature, and the one that applies to
Margo's
> > scales, is the division of the three-tone sub-group into an
> > approximately 2:1 proportion.
>
> This proportion would be larger or smaller with Pelog?
>
> > If the smaller interval is on the
> > bottom, it's degung, if it's on the top, it's sorog ("sorog"
means
> > substitute, and some gamelan degung have extra, replaceable sorog
keys,
> > so that the players can modulate into sorog during a
performance). The
> > second feature of the degung/sorog is that they can be heard as a
> > slendro with some altered tones. I think this applies less well
here as
> > the fifths are narrow, but, and strictly off the top of my head,
it
> > might work if you built a slendro out of 28tet, e.g. 0-5-11-17-
22-28 or
> > 0-5-10-17-22-28.
>
> interesting how these two go from
> S L S L L
> S S L S L
> By changing only a single tone
> Thanks this is helpful

I'm confused, Kraig . . . if I take s=5, M=6, L=7 it looks to me like
the first one is

s M M s M

while the second one is

s s L s M

. . . I must be misunderstanding you. Perhaps you could clarify on
the tuning list?

Paul Erlich wrote:

>
>
> I'm confused, Kraig . . . if I take s=5, M=6, L=7 it looks to me like
> the first one is
>
> s M M s M

I was thinking of only S and l as varibles

>
>
> while the second one is
>
> s s L s M

miscounted the last one, but it is interested how the s goes from a
minority to a majority

>
>
> . . . I must be misunderstanding you. Perhaps you could clarify on
> the tuning list?
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

kraig grady wrote:

>
> > scales, is the division of the three-tone sub-group into an
> > approximately 2:1 proportion.
>
> This proportion would be larger or smaller with Pelog?
>
Let's just say that for 7-tone pelog, as tempered on the instruments with fixed pitch, the division is closer to 1:1, with the smaller interval is usually on the bottom. What rebab and siter players and vocalists do requires a lengthy description best saved for elsewhere, but it is essential to a complete picture of pelog; what happens in the metal is less than half the story!

DJW

Paul Erlich wrote:

> > > the fifths are narrow, but, and strictly off the top of my head,
> it
> > > might work if you built a slendro out of 28tet, e.g. 0-5-11-17-
> 22-28 or
> > > 0-5-10-17-22-28.
> >
> > interesting how these two go from
> > S L S L L
> > S S L S L
> > By changing only a single tone
> > Thanks this is helpful
>
> I'm confused, Kraig . . . if I take s=5, M=6, L=7 it looks to me like
> the first one is
>
> s M M s M
>
> while the second one is
>
> s s L s M
>
> . . . I must be misunderstanding you. Perhaps you could clarify on
> the tuning list?

Don't ever trust the top of my head -- should be 0 5 11 17 22 28 or 0 5 10 16 22 28.

DJW