Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic JI intervals universality?

I would agree with Kyle's pedagogical suggestion that one ought to
start with JI intervals, and psychoacoustics in general, before
venturing into the "wierder" territory of ETs.

JI intervals certainly have their own sort of pleasure; but --- to
bring up a possible point amongst Mclaren's endless invectives, what
evidence is there that JI intervals are "preferred" by people
outside of Western-Europe/USA circles, and those so influenced?

If Thai music is based on 5-TET, did a whole population just "screw
up" or something? Or African kalimbas. . . I'm pretty sure they
aren't in 5-limit JI . . . were they a "mistake"?

Weren't all the experiments that indicated that people generally
prefer JI intervals done in the USA or Western-Europe, and
therefore culturally biased? (ACtually Mclaren claims, I don't know
if he's wrong, that even those experiments were bogus . . . )

Sure. . . most cultures have something like a 5th, something like a
4th, various kinds of 3rds, etc. But "something like" is a long
way from "3/2" or "6/5".

Again . . I have nothing against JI (and having been writing some
stuff in it recently) . . . but what is the un-biased evidence that
as Ben Johnston put it "Just Intonation is the best intonation".

🔗kylegann1955 <kgann@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "ZipZapPooZoo" <chris@m...> wrote:
>
> If Thai music is based on 5-TET, did a whole population just "screw
> up" or something? Or African kalimbas. . . I'm pretty sure they
> aren't in 5-limit JI . . . were they a "mistake"?

Actually, having first read about Thai music being in 5tet in Henry
Cowell's book, I later ran across some of the relevant
ethnomusicological research on this supposition. Thai musicians, it
appears, do talk about their scale as consisting of five equal steps.
But when recorded and interviewed by ethnomusicologists, they would
play the pitches a little lower or higher, and say, "Well, we *call*
them equal, but of course we play this one up here and this one down
here...." A Thai music expert told me that the whole 5tet thing was a
terminological fallacy, as though we were to claim that the white keys
on the piano were all equally spaced. Funny how widespread the
assumption became, though. (I don't mean to adduce this as evidence
that the musics of the world fall "naturally" into JI.)

Cheers,

Kyle

🔗Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@...>

Thai instruments with fixed pitch attempt to have seven equal steps in an octave, not five. According to Ellis, the approximation by ear was quite respectable, and contemporary musicians use electronic tuners to improve their accuracy, when such devices are available. This is also generally true for Cambodean and Laotian musicians.

Thai music is, however, based on 5-tone modes of the form 12356, and in theory, all seven transpositions are used. Vocalist, reed players, and bow string players do tend to correct the thirds so that 1-3 is recognizeably Major and 3-5 or 6-i is recognizeably minor.

Daniel Wolf

kylegann1955 wrote:

> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "ZipZapPooZoo" <chris@m...> wrote:
> >
> > If Thai music is based on 5-TET, did a whole population just "screw
> > up" or something? Or African kalimbas. . . I'm pretty sure they
> > aren't in 5-limit JI . . . were they a "mistake"? >
> Actually, having first read about Thai music being in 5tet in Henry
> Cowell's book, I later ran across some of the relevant
> ethnomusicological research on this supposition. Thai musicians, it
> appears, do talk about their scale as consisting of five equal steps.
> But when recorded and interviewed by ethnomusicologists, they would
> play the pitches a little lower or higher, and say, "Well, we *call*
> them equal, but of course we play this one up here and this one down
> here...." A Thai music expert told me that the whole 5tet thing was a
> terminological fallacy, as though we were to claim that the white keys
> on the piano were all equally spaced. Funny how widespread the
> assumption became, though. (I don't mean to adduce this as evidence
> that the musics of the world fall "naturally" into JI.)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kyle
>
>

🔗Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@...>

ZipZapPooZoo wrote:

> I would agree with Kyle's pedagogical suggestion that one ought to
> start with JI intervals, and psychoacoustics in general, before
> venturing into the "wierder" territory of ETs.
>
I don't know about psychoacoustics as a starting place. I would start with the music itself, and the intonations music has historically demanded. I made a pedagogical proposal several years ago that musicians should learn, in parallel with historical/theoretical and practical studies, to play in the most important tuning regimes of the repertoire relevant to the individual musician. Thus, a western classical musician should know how to perform in some subset of the following: pythagorean, meantone, some "general" well-temperament, and 12-tet. Simultaneously, they should learn, from singing if possible, JI intervals through 7 or 11, and to tune to cent deviations from 12tet pitches.

> JI intervals certainly have their own sort of pleasure; but --- to
> bring up a possible point amongst Mclaren's endless invectives, what
> evidence is there that JI intervals are "preferred" by people
> outside of Western-Europe/USA circles, and those so influenced?

I think I speak for all of us who use JI intervals as a point of reference, that that point of reference is always qualified by the assumption of harmonic timbres etc.. In a previous posting, I have recording my disagreement with the western bias of some research.

>
> If Thai music is based on 5-TET, did a whole population just "screw
> up" or something? Or African kalimbas. . . I'm pretty sure they
> aren't in 5-limit JI . . . were they a "mistake"? >
Thai does use 7-tet, but it's no screw up. Rather, it's a pragmatic compromise allowing the Thai to transpose their unequal 5-tone scale to seven degrees of a fixed tuning.

I haven't ever heard of any kalimbas in 5-limit JI -- are you certain of a reference for this?

>
> Sure. . . most cultures have something like a 5th, something like a
> 4th, various kinds of 3rds, etc. But "something like" is a long
> way from "3/2" or "6/5".

Here's a short answer: Consider the fact that the apparatus we use for putting music into our brains is largely the same as that we use for putting (audible) speech into our brains. The perception of speech depends in part upon analysing signals with exact harmonic spectra, and apparently the lower end of the spectra where relationships can be chacterized by ratios of small whole numbers. This is not the place for a debate on the origins of music, but it is probably safe to say that vocal utterances are one of the most important origins, and their harmonic character is not subject to debate.

Yes, there are music cultures where the intervals appear to deviate strongly from a JI model, but a second or third look, as in the Thai example above, may show the rational heart of an irrational surface. The Thai may well have taken a vocal pythagorean or just pentatonic scale and , through years if not centuries of trial-and-error, made it fit into the 7-tet environment. And when an irrational tuning like 7-tet is impressed onto an ensemble of idiophones and gongs, then the tolerance for a deviation from a JI tuning is greatly increased. (I have a studio full of gamelan instruments to back me up on this -- http://www.world-edition.com/world/malvear/pages/books/generatio/wolf.htm -- each individual gong in my bonang or each key on a metallophone has a noticeably different spectrum.) "Something like" is indeed very much a part of our musical lives, which we live as if we still navigated via flat earth coordinates. (I happen to like this situation...)

> Again . . I have nothing against JI (and having been writing some
> stuff in it recently) . . . but what is the un-biased evidence that
> as Ben Johnston put it "Just Intonation is the best intonation".
>
The quote is due Lou Harrison (Music Primer, page 4).

DJW

🔗Paul Erlich <perlich@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "ZipZapPooZoo" <chris@m...>
wrote:

> I would agree with Kyle's pedagogical suggestion that one ought to
> start with JI intervals, and psychoacoustics in general, before
> venturing into the "wierder" territory of ETs.
>
> JI intervals certainly have their own sort of pleasure; but --- to
> bring up a possible point amongst Mclaren's endless invectives,
what
> evidence is there that JI intervals are "preferred" by people
> outside of Western-Europe/USA circles, and those so influenced?

JI intervals are even more "preferred" in Indian music than in
Western music. The West has very little idea what a true 5:4 sounds
like, compared to India. This is easy to hear if you've trained your
ear and got a good assortment of recordings to check out.

> If Thai music is based on 5-TET,

7, actually.

> did a whole population just "screw
> up" or something?

Absolutely not. This is what I was getting at in my reply to Kyle.

>(ACtually Mclaren claims, I don't know
> if he's wrong, that even those experiments were bogus . . . )

If you check up on his claims, very few turn out to be true . . .
particularly when he's "quoting" people or research.

> Again . . I have nothing against JI (and having been writing some
> stuff in it recently) . . . but what is the un-biased evidence
that
> as Ben Johnston put it "Just Intonation is the best intonation".

I think it's not the best intonation for most musics.

🔗Paul Erlich <perlich@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "kylegann1955" <kgann@e...>
wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "ZipZapPooZoo" <chris@m...>
wrote:
> >
> > If Thai music is based on 5-TET, did a whole population
just "screw
> > up" or something? Or African kalimbas. . . I'm pretty sure they
> > aren't in 5-limit JI . . . were they a "mistake"?
>
> Actually, having first read about Thai music being in 5tet

7-equal.

> in Henry
> Cowell's book,

Maybe Cowell got it wrong -- don't have his book.

> I later ran across some of the relevant
> ethnomusicological research on this supposition. Thai musicians, it
> appears, do talk about their scale as consisting of five

seven

> equal steps.
> But when recorded and interviewed by ethnomusicologists, they would
> play the pitches a little lower or higher, and say, "Well, we *call*
> them equal, but of course we play this one up here and this one down
> here...." A Thai music expert told me that the whole [equal] thing
was a
> terminological fallacy, as though we were to claim that the white
keys
> on the piano were all equally spaced.

There's an important disctinction here. Thai music is pentatonic and
*modulates* around several of the seven keys, and the pentatonic
modal forms are considered the *same* no matter which pitch level
they occur on. This is utterly different than the white keys on the
piano. No one considers major, dorian, phryian . . . locrian all to
be different tunings of the same mode. It's like night and day.

> Funny how widespread the
> assumption became, though.

Have you read the New Grove article on Thai music?

🔗Paul Erlich <perlich@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@a...>
wrote:

> I think I speak for all of us who use JI intervals as a point of
> reference, that that point of reference is always qualified by the
> assumption of harmonic timbres etc..

The human voice, bowed string, and wind instruments, no matter what
culture they occur in, all produce exactly harmonic overtone series.

Brown, Judith C. 1996. "Frequency ratios of spectral components of
musical sounds" J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 99, 1210-1218.

http://www.wellesley.edu/Physics/brown/pubs/freqRatV99P1210-P1218.djvu

> In a previous posting, I have
> recording my disagreement with the western bias of some research.

Hate to say it, but the myth that most cultures use JI has been
promulgated most strongly by American JI musicians, not by
researchers.

> > If Thai music is based on 5-TET, did a whole population
just "screw
> > up" or something? Or African kalimbas. . . I'm pretty sure they
> > aren't in 5-limit JI . . . were they a "mistake"?
> >
> Thai does use 7-tet, but it's no screw up. Rather, it's a
pragmatic
> compromise allowing the Thai to transpose their unequal 5-tone
scale to
> seven degrees of a fixed tuning.

Exactly.

> I haven't ever heard of any kalimbas in 5-limit JI -- are you
certain
> of a reference for this?

This was exactly the point -- they *aren't*. Read the above again.

🔗ZipZapPooZoo <chris@...>

> I don't know about psychoacoustics as a starting place. I would
start
> with the music itself, and the intonations music has historically
> demanded. I made a pedagogical proposal several years ago
that
> musicians should learn, in parallel with historical/theoretical
and
> practical studies, to play in the most important tuning regimes
of the
> repertoire relevant to the individual musician. Thus, a western
> classical musician should know how to perform in some
subset of the
> following: pythagorean, meantone, some "general"
well-temperament, and
> 12-tet. Simultaneously, they should learn, from singing if
possible,
> JI intervals through 7 or 11, and to tune to cent deviations from
12tet
> pitches.
>

This sounds wonderful . . .I was just talking about the situation of
an "intro to microtonality" class for probably mainly composers.
Though the above wouldn't hurt them either.

> > JI intervals certainly have their own sort of pleasure; but --- to
> > bring up a possible point amongst Mclaren's endless
invectives, what
> > evidence is there that JI intervals are "preferred" by people
> > outside of Western-Europe/USA circles, and those so
influenced?
>
>
> I think I speak for all of us who use JI intervals as a point of
> reference, that that point of reference is always qualified by the
> assumption of harmonic timbres etc.. In a previous posting, I
have
> recording my disagreement with the western bias of some
research.
>

But surely there is music out there in harmonic timbres that isn't
Just Tuned?

Like those African pan-pipe ensembles, where the "harmony"
seems to be (to my untrained ears) magnificent clusters, thick
wads of sound.

I sometimes think there are perhaps a number of basic
sonic-cognitive "ideas", any number of which a culture might
focus on (unconsciously) to develop their music(s). I don't think
these "ideas" take the form of "rules" , i.e., I don't think there is
a hard-wired rule in our brains that says "Avoid beating at all
costs." Rather, what's hard-wired is, "Hey, this is beating. Here
are some intervals that produce it, in combination with certain
timbres. Here are some intervals that don't." (I'm simplifying
massively of course). Some cultures or musics might want to
emphasize Beating (like gamelan metallophones with their
beating timbres), and de-emphasize Just Intervals (thus using
"sorta" 5ths and 4ths and 3rds). Others, might do the reverse.

But crucial here is the fact that something like "beating" isn't
universally "to be avoided". It's just there, certain circumstances
can make it happen, and whether you want it happening or not
depends on a whole number of factors.

> >
> > If Thai music is based on 5-TET, did a whole population just
"screw
> > up" or something? Or African kalimbas. . . I'm pretty sure they
> > aren't in 5-limit JI . . . were they a "mistake"?
> >
> Thai does use 7-tet, but it's no screw up. Rather, it's a
pragmatic
> compromise allowing the Thai to transpose their unequal
5-tone scale to
> seven degrees of a fixed tuning.
>
> I haven't ever heard of any kalimbas in 5-limit JI -- are you
certain
> of a reference for this?
>

You're mireading me. . . I Was saying, there aren't any (that I
know of) . . . and therefore, this was another example of a culture
that seems not to care too much about Just Intonation.

> >
> > Sure. . . most cultures have something like a 5th, something
like a
> > 4th, various kinds of 3rds, etc. But "something like" is a long
> > way from "3/2" or "6/5".
>
>
> "Something like" is indeed very much a
> part of our musical lives, which we live as if we still navigated
via
> flat earth coordinates. (I happen to like this situation...)
>

I as well. Amen. The "fuzziness" of these things, which
presumably helps to lead to all of the terrific variety of the world's
musics, is to be celebrated.

> > Again . . I have nothing against JI (and having been writing
some
> > stuff in it recently) . . . but what is the un-biased evidence that
> > as Ben Johnston put it "Just Intonation is the best intonation".
> >
> The quote is due Lou Harrison (Music Primer, page 4).
>

Oops. Sorry.

🔗Paul Erlich <perlich@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "ZipZapPooZoo" <chris@m...>
wrote:

> I sometimes think there are perhaps a number of basic
> sonic-cognitive "ideas", any number of which a culture might
> focus on (unconsciously) to develop their music(s). I don't think
> these "ideas" take the form of "rules" , i.e., I don't think
there is
> a hard-wired rule in our brains that says "Avoid beating at all
> costs." Rather, what's hard-wired is, "Hey, this is beating.
Here
> are some intervals that produce it, in combination with certain
> timbres. Here are some intervals that don't." (I'm simplifying
> massively of course). Some cultures or musics might want to
> emphasize Beating (like gamelan metallophones with their
> beating timbres), and de-emphasize Just Intervals (thus using
> "sorta" 5ths and 4ths and 3rds). Others, might do the reverse.
>
> But crucial here is the fact that something like "beating" isn't
> universally "to be avoided". It's just there, certain
circumstances
> can make it happen, and whether you want it happening or not
> depends on a whole number of factors.

I don't think the beating is what's "painful". I don't think the
elimination of beating is one of the main points of attraction about
JI. Even a minor sixth in JI exhibits beating, as Julia Werntz loves
to point out. But we've clearly extended this topic way too far for
the purpose and disposition of this list. Please, Chris, Daniel,
*me*, let's take it to one of the other lists. I'll be replying to
one of Gene's posts here on the tuning list.

Now back to your regularly-scheduled music-making . . .

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Daniel Wolf <djwolf1@...>

Paul Erlich wrote:

>
> > I haven't ever heard of any kalimbas in 5-limit JI -- are you
> certain > > of a reference for this?
>
> This was exactly the point -- they *aren't*. Read the above again.
>
I undestood this, I was just underscoring the point that no serious scholar or musician has ever made such a claim. I have, unfortunately, heard this type of critique of the JI project far too often, that the JI advocates are claiming to have found JI where it's not to be found. That said, the JI project is a speculative one, and I believe African musicians would happily accept a JI-tuned lamellophone. They might not hear anything special in it, but they would accept it as _one_ solution. (Similarly: I had the honor this week of a visit by Ki Manteb Soedharsono, one of the greatest living dalangs (shadow puppet masters) from central Java. He needed some instruments to supplement those in the Indonesian Embassy here for a performance in honor of the Indonesian Wayang being elevated by UNESCO to the status of "masterpiece of world cultural heritage". My gamelan is not in JI, but a kind of temperament from JI, but the octaves are exactly 2:1. Ki Manteb was full of enthusiasm for the tuning, saying that it was both sweet and powerful.)

DJW