someone to refret?

While this is a post mostly for posters in my neighborhood--
Massachusetts, if there are any other luthier types out there that
are interested please chime in. I'm looking to refret and microtize
few guitars and a uke and I would appreciate any leads on a trusted
person to do this... thanks.
(feel free to contact me off-list)

http://www.zebox.com/daniel_anthony_stearns/

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
<daniel_anthony_stearns@y...> wrote:
> While this is a post mostly for posters in my neighborhood--
> Massachusetts, if there are any other luthier types out there that
> are interested please chime in. I'm looking to refret and microtize
> few guitars and a uke and I would appreciate any leads on a trusted
> person to do this... thanks.
> (feel free to contact me off-list)
>
> http://www.zebox.com/daniel_anthony_stearns/

I have exactly the same question -- I live near Boston and need to
have an acoustic guitar refretted into the "shrutar" scale Dave and I
came up with. I hope to have some music samples up soon so you can
hear the kind of stuff I plan to do with it, albeit in 12-equal :(

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...>
wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
> <daniel_anthony_stearns@y...> wrote:
> > While this is a post mostly for posters in my neighborhood--
> > Massachusetts, if there are any other luthier types out there
that
> > are interested please chime in. I'm looking to refret and
microtize
> > few guitars and a uke and I would appreciate any leads on a
trusted
> > person to do this... thanks.
>
> I have exactly the same question -- I live near Boston and need to
> have an acoustic guitar refretted into the "shrutar" scale Dave
and I
> came up with. I hope to have some music samples up soon so you can
> hear the kind of stuff I plan to do with it, albeit in 12-equal :(

In case anybody happens to do such refretting in Switzerland, I
would like to know, too!
--
Hans Straub

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...>
wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
> <daniel_anthony_stearns@y...> wrote:
> > While this is a post mostly for posters in my neighborhood--
> > Massachusetts, if there are any other luthier types out there
that
> > are interested please chime in. I'm looking to refret and
microtize
> > few guitars and a uke and I would appreciate any leads on a
trusted
> > person to do this... thanks.
> > (feel free to contact me off-list)
> >
> > http://www.zebox.com/daniel_anthony_stearns/
>
> I have exactly the same question -- I live near Boston and need to
> have an acoustic guitar refretted into the "shrutar" scale Dave and
I
> came up with. I hope to have some music samples up soon so you can
> hear the kind of stuff I plan to do with it, albeit in 12-equal :(

There should be a couple of examples here now:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/paulerlichacousticmusic.htm

Unfortunately soundclick truncates to about 10 minutes, so you can't
hear how I brought these improvs home at the end. Anyway, can't wait
to make microtonal stuff like this!

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...>
wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...>
> wrote:
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
> > <daniel_anthony_stearns@y...> wrote:
> > > While this is a post mostly for posters in my neighborhood--
> > > Massachusetts, if there are any other luthier types out there
> that
> > > are interested please chime in. I'm looking to refret and
> microtize
> > > few guitars and a uke and I would appreciate any leads on a
> trusted
> > > person to do this... thanks.
> > > (feel free to contact me off-list)
> > >
> > > http://www.zebox.com/daniel_anthony_stearns/
> >
> > I have exactly the same question -- I live near Boston and need to
> > have an acoustic guitar refretted into the "shrutar" scale Dave
and
> I
> > came up with. I hope to have some music samples up soon so you can
> > hear the kind of stuff I plan to do with it, albeit in 12-equal :(
>
> There should be a couple of examples here now:
>
> http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/paulerlichacousticmusic.htm
>
> Unfortunately soundclick truncates to about 10 minutes, so you
can't
> hear how I brought these improvs home at the end. Anyway, can't
wait
> to make microtonal stuff like this!

A bit further off will be microtonal stuff like this, which a few of
you have heard already:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/stretchmusic.htm

I already have microtonal guitars and bass; need microtonal
saxophone . . .

Sorry for the shameless 12-equal self-promotion!

If you're really looking for microtonal saxophone and you live near Boston,
talk to Joe Maneri. At least _his_ saxophone is microtonal....

On 3/8/04 8:11 PM, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@...> wrote:

> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...>
> wrote:
>> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...>
>> wrote:
>>> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
>>> <daniel_anthony_stearns@y...> wrote:
>>>> While this is a post mostly for posters in my neighborhood--
>>>> Massachusetts, if there are any other luthier types out there
>> that
>>>> are interested please chime in. I'm looking to refret and
>> microtize
>>>> few guitars and a uke and I would appreciate any leads on a
>> trusted
>>>> person to do this... thanks.
>>>> (feel free to contact me off-list)
>>>>
>>>> http://www.zebox.com/daniel_anthony_stearns/
>>>
>>> I have exactly the same question -- I live near Boston and need to
>>> have an acoustic guitar refretted into the "shrutar" scale Dave
> and
>> I
>>> came up with. I hope to have some music samples up soon so you can
>>> hear the kind of stuff I plan to do with it, albeit in 12-equal :(
>>
>> There should be a couple of examples here now:
>>
>> http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/paulerlichacousticmusic.htm
>>
>> Unfortunately soundclick truncates to about 10 minutes, so you
> can't
>> hear how I brought these improvs home at the end. Anyway, can't
> wait
>> to make microtonal stuff like this!
>
> A bit further off will be microtonal stuff like this, which a few of
> you have heard already:
>
> http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/stretchmusic.htm
>
> I already have microtonal guitars and bass; need microtonal
> saxophone . . .
>
> Sorry for the shameless 12-equal self-promotion!
>
>
>
> [MMM info]------------------------------------------------------
> More MMM music files are at http://www.microtonal.org/music.html
> ------------------------------------------------------[MMM info]
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

I've talked to Joe Maneri, and seen him play. Like Johnny Reinhard
and his bassoon, Joe uses a conventional instrument but employs
unconventional fingerings and other techniques to effect the
microtones. Thanks, though!

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Stan Hoffman
<stanhoffman@m...> wrote:
> If you're really looking for microtonal saxophone and you live near
Boston,
> talk to Joe Maneri. At least _his_ saxophone is microtonal....
>
> On 3/8/04 8:11 PM, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...> wrote:
>
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich"
<perlich@a...>
> > wrote:
> >> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich"
<perlich@a...>
> >> wrote:
> >>> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
> >>> <daniel_anthony_stearns@y...> wrote:
> >>>> While this is a post mostly for posters in my neighborhood--
> >>>> Massachusetts, if there are any other luthier types out there
> >> that
> >>>> are interested please chime in. I'm looking to refret and
> >> microtize
> >>>> few guitars and a uke and I would appreciate any leads on a
> >> trusted
> >>>> person to do this... thanks.
> >>>> (feel free to contact me off-list)
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.zebox.com/daniel_anthony_stearns/
> >>>
> >>> I have exactly the same question -- I live near Boston and need
to
> >>> have an acoustic guitar refretted into the "shrutar" scale Dave
> > and
> >> I
> >>> came up with. I hope to have some music samples up soon so you
can
> >>> hear the kind of stuff I plan to do with it, albeit in 12-
equal :(
> >>
> >> There should be a couple of examples here now:
> >>
> >> http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/paulerlichacousticmusic.htm
> >>
> >> Unfortunately soundclick truncates to about 10 minutes, so you
> > can't
> >> hear how I brought these improvs home at the end. Anyway, can't
> > wait
> >> to make microtonal stuff like this!
> >
> > A bit further off will be microtonal stuff like this, which a few
of
> > you have heard already:
> >
> > http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/stretchmusic.htm
> >
> > I already have microtonal guitars and bass; need microtonal
> > saxophone . . .
> >
> > Sorry for the shameless 12-equal self-promotion!
> >
> >
> >
> > [MMM info]------------------------------------------------------
> > More MMM music files are at http://www.microtonal.org/music.html
> > ------------------------------------------------------[MMM info]
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

I think that was the point, that unlike a guitar, the saxophone can
be made into a flexible and effective microtonal instrument without
the aid of the toolbox... Obviously that's not to say that there's no
merit in trying to do what you're looking to do, but it sure does
sound like an expensive project.
--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...>
wrote:
> I've talked to Joe Maneri, and seen him play. Like Johnny Reinhard
> and his bassoon, Joe uses a conventional instrument but employs
> unconventional fingerings and other techniques to effect the
> microtones. Thanks, though!
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Stan Hoffman
> <stanhoffman@m...> wrote:
> > If you're really looking for microtonal saxophone and you live
near
> Boston,
> > talk to Joe Maneri. At least _his_ saxophone is microtonal....
> >
> > On 3/8/04 8:11 PM, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...> wrote:
> >
> > > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich"
> <perlich@a...>
> > > wrote:
> > >> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich"
> <perlich@a...>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>> --- In
MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
> > >>> <daniel_anthony_stearns@y...> wrote:
> > >>>> While this is a post mostly for posters in my neighborhood--
> > >>>> Massachusetts, if there are any other luthier types out there
> > >> that
> > >>>> are interested please chime in. I'm looking to refret and
> > >> microtize
> > >>>> few guitars and a uke and I would appreciate any leads on a
> > >> trusted
> > >>>> person to do this... thanks.
> > >>>> (feel free to contact me off-list)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> http://www.zebox.com/daniel_anthony_stearns/
> > >>>
> > >>> I have exactly the same question -- I live near Boston and
need
> to
> > >>> have an acoustic guitar refretted into the "shrutar" scale
Dave
> > > and
> > >> I
> > >>> came up with. I hope to have some music samples up soon so
you
> can
> > >>> hear the kind of stuff I plan to do with it, albeit in 12-
> equal :(
> > >>
> > >> There should be a couple of examples here now:
> > >>
> > >> http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/paulerlichacousticmusic.htm
> > >>
> > >> Unfortunately soundclick truncates to about 10 minutes, so you
> > > can't
> > >> hear how I brought these improvs home at the end. Anyway, can't
> > > wait
> > >> to make microtonal stuff like this!
> > >
> > > A bit further off will be microtonal stuff like this, which a
few
> of
> > > you have heard already:
> > >
> > > http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/stretchmusic.htm
> > >
> > > I already have microtonal guitars and bass; need microtonal
> > > saxophone . . .
> > >
> > > Sorry for the shameless 12-equal self-promotion!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [MMM info]------------------------------------------------------
> > > More MMM music files are at http://www.microtonal.org/music.html
> > > ------------------------------------------------------[MMM info]
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >

One could dispute this distinction on the basis of the possibility of
bending strings, retuning open strings, using harmonics, etc. on the
guitar. Regardless, Joe and Johnny spent a long time developing their
techniques; if I were to give my second guitarist and saxophone
player specially made instruments, they would have a much easier time
producing accurate microtonal pitches, and would probably not devote
the necessary effort otherwise. Anyway, I'm not sure I'll even be
playing with a saxophone player by this further-off time; maybe it'll
be a flute player or . . .

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
<daniel_anthony_stearns@y...> wrote:
> I think that was the point, that unlike a guitar, the saxophone can
> be made into a flexible and effective microtonal instrument without
> the aid of the toolbox... Obviously that's not to say that there's
no
> merit in trying to do what you're looking to do, but it sure does
> sound like an expensive project.
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...>
> wrote:
> > I've talked to Joe Maneri, and seen him play. Like Johnny
Reinhard
> > and his bassoon, Joe uses a conventional instrument but employs
> > unconventional fingerings and other techniques to effect the
> > microtones. Thanks, though!
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Stan Hoffman
> > <stanhoffman@m...> wrote:
> > > If you're really looking for microtonal saxophone and you live
> near
> > Boston,
> > > talk to Joe Maneri. At least _his_ saxophone is microtonal....
> > >
> > > On 3/8/04 8:11 PM, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich"
> > <perlich@a...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich"
> > <perlich@a...>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>> --- In
> MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
> > > >>> <daniel_anthony_stearns@y...> wrote:
> > > >>>> While this is a post mostly for posters in my neighborhood-
-
> > > >>>> Massachusetts, if there are any other luthier types out
there
> > > >> that
> > > >>>> are interested please chime in. I'm looking to refret and
> > > >> microtize
> > > >>>> few guitars and a uke and I would appreciate any leads on a
> > > >> trusted
> > > >>>> person to do this... thanks.
> > > >>>> (feel free to contact me off-list)
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> http://www.zebox.com/daniel_anthony_stearns/
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I have exactly the same question -- I live near Boston and
> need
> > to
> > > >>> have an acoustic guitar refretted into the "shrutar" scale
> Dave
> > > > and
> > > >> I
> > > >>> came up with. I hope to have some music samples up soon so
> you
> > can
> > > >>> hear the kind of stuff I plan to do with it, albeit in 12-
> > equal :(
> > > >>
> > > >> There should be a couple of examples here now:
> > > >>
> > > >> http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/paulerlichacousticmusic.htm
> > > >>
> > > >> Unfortunately soundclick truncates to about 10 minutes, so
you
> > > > can't
> > > >> hear how I brought these improvs home at the end. Anyway,
can't
> > > > wait
> > > >> to make microtonal stuff like this!
> > > >
> > > > A bit further off will be microtonal stuff like this, which a
> few
> > of
> > > > you have heard already:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/stretchmusic.htm
> > > >
> > > > I already have microtonal guitars and bass; need microtonal
> > > > saxophone . . .
> > > >
> > > > Sorry for the shameless 12-equal self-promotion!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [MMM info]----------------------------------------------------
--
> > > > More MMM music files are at
http://www.microtonal.org/music.html
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------[MMM
info]
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >

This is an interesting point. Do you really think that it would take them
less time to learn a specially made instrument with, presumably, a new
fingering system than to find alternate fingerings and lippings on an
instrument they are already intimately familiar with?

On 3/9/04 4:06 PM, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@...> wrote:

> One could dispute this distinction on the basis of the possibility of
> bending strings, retuning open strings, using harmonics, etc. on the
> guitar. Regardless, Joe and Johnny spent a long time developing their
> techniques; if I were to give my second guitarist and saxophone
> player specially made instruments, they would have a much easier time
> producing accurate microtonal pitches, and would probably not devote
> the necessary effort otherwise. Anyway, I'm not sure I'll even be
> playing with a saxophone player by this further-off time; maybe it'll
> be a flute player or . . .
>

This has been debated on the tuning list and elsewhere, by Patrick
Ozzard-Low, Johnny Reinhard, and others. I suspect the correct answer
is that one can make no generalizations, and it depends greatly on
the music to be performed, what criteria determine a successful or
unsuccessful performance of said music, how the alternate system is
implemented, the experience and perhaps even genetics of the player,
and so on. However, I do find that the saxophone playing fast
intervals (where there's no time to correct intonation by ear) is
capable of much more precise 12-equal intonation than, say, the
trumpet, so I assume some of this precision comes from the design of
the horn, and that a different design would lead to similar precision
in a different tuning system more readily than the same old design.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Stan Hoffman
<stanhoffman@m...> wrote:
> This is an interesting point. Do you really think that it would
take them
> less time to learn a specially made instrument with, presumably, a
new
> fingering system than to find alternate fingerings and lippings on
an
> instrument they are already intimately familiar with?
>
> On 3/9/04 4:06 PM, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...> wrote:
>
> > One could dispute this distinction on the basis of the
possibility of
> > bending strings, retuning open strings, using harmonics, etc. on
the
> > guitar. Regardless, Joe and Johnny spent a long time developing
their
> > techniques; if I were to give my second guitarist and saxophone
> > player specially made instruments, they would have a much easier
time
> > producing accurate microtonal pitches, and would probably not
devote
> > the necessary effort otherwise. Anyway, I'm not sure I'll even be
> > playing with a saxophone player by this further-off time; maybe
it'll
> > be a flute player or . . .
> >

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...>
wrote:
> and so on. However, I do find that the saxophone playing fast
> intervals (where there's no time to correct intonation by ear) is
> capable of much more precise 12-equal intonation than, say, the
> trumpet, so I assume some of this precision comes from the design
of
> the horn, and that a different design would lead to similar
precision
> in a different tuning system more readily than the same old design.
>
>

Humm... The saxophone combines features of both cylindrical (eg
clarinet, flute) and conical (eg oboe) woodwind instruments. It
inherits its shape from the latters, but its mouth is similar to the
clarinet's. In any case, sax can be considered a woodwind rather than
a brass instrument.

Speaking of sound production, sax, unlike brasses, has fingering and
keys systems that allow almost perfect intonation. In contrast, a
trumpet sound relies much on mouth action, so it comes as no surprise
that difference you menction.

I suppose fingering, keys, etc. can be adapted to some et. (Although
I think it won't be an easy task, will it?

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...>
wrote:
> One could dispute this distinction on the basis of the possibility
of
> bending strings, retuning open strings, using harmonics, etc. on
the
> guitar. Regardless, Joe and Johnny spent a long time developing
their
> techniques; if I were to give my second guitarist and saxophone
> player specially made instruments, they would have a much easier
time
> producing accurate microtonal pitches, and would probably not
devote
> the necessary effort otherwise. Anyway, I'm not sure I'll even be
> playing with a saxophone player by this further-off time; maybe
it'll
> be a flute player or . . .

How about getting your saxophonist an off-the-shelf soprano
recorder? I've been experimenting with both soprano and alto
recorders to see how difficult it would be to achieve my 19+3
temperament with them, and I've had very good success in finding
fingerings that work. I've already tested this in real time using my
alto recorder with an electronic accompaniment: a composition I wrote
for 19+3, which uses only part of the circle of 19, which is
virtually identical to the equal-beating 5/17-comma meantone
temperament (which was a hot topic not too long ago on the main
list). The technique is not difficult (fortunately, since I'm not a
recorder virtuoso), and it's a real delight to be able to make the
distinction between sharps and flats so easily on an existing
acoustic instrument.

I don't know what tuning(s) you want to use, but the fingerings I
found for 19+3 will work just fine for either 19-ET or for otonal (15-
limit) ogdoads built on F, C, and G (in case you're considering
anything in JI). Of course, the player must be aware that a certain
amount of variation in pitch will occur due to variations in breath
pressure and (for the second octave) the amount that the thumbhole is
covered. Therefore, the fingerings are not high-precision, but they
get me quite close to the pitches I need.

If the range of the soprano recorder is too high for your purposes
(and you're open to electronic manipulation of the sound), you could
always use a pickup connected to an electronic frequency divider to
drop the pitch an octave or two.

--George