Looking for tuning application

Hi,

I don't know if Scala has this option, but I don't think I've ever seen it:

Is there an application, for the PC platform, that would let me access in realtime, through an on-screen interface, the pitch values of all 128 midi notes? Going ALL the way back to my original Prophet 5, I would frequently try out scales by retuning the 12 notes (that is all you could do) of the octave, getting varying amounts of consonant and dissonant chords, simply by turning 12 knobs.

The may not be the optimal way to find tunings, it may not be the preferred way, or anything else. But since I can use Scala to explore a lot of other things, I would sometimes like to just sit down and practice/experiment tuning harmonies by ear.

Any ideas?

Cheers,
Jon

Depending on the instrument, there may be specific tuning templates for
generic patch editors like MIDI Quest that allow you to adjust the tunings
with a virtual knob or slider. If a template doesn't exist you can usually
create one using the provided tools.

John Loffink
The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
http://www.wavemakers-synth.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan M. Szanto [mailto:JSZANTO@...]
> Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 1:12 PM
> To: MMM
> Cc: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MMM] Looking for tuning application
>
> Hi,
>
> I don't know if Scala has this option, but I don't think I've ever seen
> it:
>
> Is there an application, for the PC platform, that would let me access in
> realtime, through an on-screen interface, the pitch values of all 128 midi
> notes? Going ALL the way back to my original Prophet 5, I would frequently
> try out scales by retuning the 12 notes (that is all you could do) of the
> octave, getting varying amounts of consonant and dissonant chords, simply
> by turning 12 knobs.
>
> The may not be the optimal way to find tunings, it may not be the
> preferred
> way, or anything else. But since I can use Scala to explore a lot of other
> things, I would sometimes like to just sit down and practice/experiment
> tuning harmonies by ear.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
>
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> More MMM music files are at http://www.microtonal.org/music.html
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John,

{you wrote...}
>Depending on the instrument, there may be specific tuning templates for
>generic patch editors like MIDI Quest that allow you to adjust the tunings
>with a virtual knob or slider. If a template doesn't exist you can usually
>create one using the provided tools.

Hmmm, I've never thought of that. I actually gave a moments reflection on creating a VST instrument just for this purpose, using SynthEdit or one of the other plug-in editor/development tools, but I relaxed for a moment and the urge passed.

I've had a bad history with the SoundQuest products, having tried them all the way back to my Amiga days. There were always problems of some sort, bad design implementations, all wrapped up in a product I thought cost too much. But maybe I should check them out. OTOH, it seems as I'm definitely headed towards an all software-based future, so a graphic front end for hardware box is seeming less necessary all the time.

Cheers,
Jon

>I don't know if Scala has this option, but I don't think I've ever
>seen it:
>
>Is there an application, for the PC platform, that would let me access
>in realtime, through an on-screen interface, the pitch values of all
>128 midi notes?

Yes, if you go into Edit->Options and hit Base Frequency, you will
be able to cycle through MIDI note numbers and see pitch values in
the adjacent field.

>Going ALL the way back to my original Prophet 5,

Wow, do you still have it? Rick Wakeman used to use one. My friend
had one with a very rare factory option -- polyphonic aftertouch!
It was stolen from his car just a few months ago when he was out on
a gig. :(

>I would frequently try out scales by retuning the 12 notes (that is
>all you could do) of the octave, getting varying amounts of consonant
>and dissonant chords, simply by turning 12 knobs.
>
>The may not be the optimal way to find tunings, it may not be the
>preferred way, or anything else. But since I can use Scala to explore
>a lot of other things, I would sometimes like to just sit down and
>practice/experiment tuning harmonies by ear.

Oh, you want to *change* them? Well you can just create a 128-note
scale and send a tuning dump to whatever synth you have (of course
you can use any number of notes less than this, and Scala will "tile"
the tuning by the "formal octave" (whatever interval of equivalence
you've specified, default = 2/1) to cover the 128 notes).

-Carl

Carl,

{you wrote...}
>Yes, if you go into Edit->Options and hit Base Frequency, you will be able >to cycle through MIDI note numbers and see pitch values in the adjacent field.

Hmmm, right, but not what I want.

> >Going ALL the way back to my original Prophet 5,
>
>Wow, do you still have it?

Yep. The *one* piece of gear I never got rid of. Well, outside of all the percussion stuff. And the only electronic thing I ever purchased that has kept any kind of appreciated value at all!

>Oh, you want to *change* them?

Yeah. Like I said, with the knobs in real time.

>Well you can just create a 128-note scale and send a tuning dump to >whatever synth you have (of course you can use any number of notes less >than this, and Scala will "tile" the tuning by the "formal octave" >(whatever interval of equivalence you've specified, default = 2/1) to >cover the 128 notes).

Still not the same. I'd like to tune notes, like holding down one pitch and tuning another along with it, and see frequencies updated. And *then* save a tuning at some point.

I had forgotten about MidiCode, so I've downloaded that and will give it a spin.

Cheers,
Jon

>-Carl
>
>
>[MMM info]------------------------------------------------------
>More MMM music files are at http://www.microtonal.org/music.html
>------------------------------------------------------[MMM info]
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>To visit your group on the web, go to:
> /makemicromusic/
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
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`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
Real Life: Orchestral Percussionist
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http://www.corporeal.com/
NOTE:
If your reply bounces, try --> jonszanto@...

>>Oh, you want to *change* them?
>
>Yeah. Like I said, with the knobs in real time.
>
>>Well you can just create a 128-note scale and send a tuning dump to
>>whatever synth you have (of course you can use any number of notes
>>less than this, and Scala will "tile" the tuning by the "formal
>>octave" (whatever interval of equivalence you've specified,
>>default = 2/1) to cover the 128 notes).
>
>Still not the same. I'd like to tune notes, like holding down one
>pitch and tuning another along with it, and see frequencies updated.
>And *then* save a tuning at some point.
>
>I had forgotten about MidiCode, so I've downloaded that and will
>give it a spin.

Yes, I often find myself reaching for a knob, as it were, but with
none available.

My question is: why don't you just keep using the Prophet?

-Carl

C,

{you wrote...}
>Yes, I often find myself reaching for a knob, as it were, but with none >available.

Seems like such a simple thing - standard issue UI design in softsynths these days.

>My question is: why don't you just keep using the Prophet?

You can only alter 12 pitches, which get replicated each octave. I'm interested in some extended tunings. And it's big. And heavy.

But it still looks nice - one of the few P5's that hardly ever went outside of their owner's homes!

Cheers,
Jon

The Edit dialog in Scala might come close to what you
want although it's not based on midi notes.
If you do

equal 12
extend 128
set freq 8 (or thereabout)
set attribute factor 8 (same value as above)
Ctrl-E
Then tick all three checkboxes.
Then you can change the pitches one by one,
entering them in cents or Hertz.

Let me know if you have an idea to make it easier.

Manuel

Manuel,

Sorry that it has taken me a while to get back to you on your suggestion - time of year, and all that...

{you wrote...}
>The Edit dialog in Scala might come close to what you want although it's >not based on midi notes.

...then...

>Let me know if you have an idea to make it easier.

Well, that is still not what I would like to have in front of me. I don't even need/want this to work with external synths, driving the soundcard would be fine. What I am looking for is very simple in concept:

1. Start with some default tuning; for ease, this could be 12tet
2. Be able to play on a midi kbd input, and hold any note (0-127)
3. Be able to change the pitch of any note in real time, using either graphic spin controls, knobs, widgets or anything else. Any way to alter the numeric value of the pitch would be OK, bonus points to have a "midi learn function" to allow programmable knobs/sliders on external devices
4. Once tunings have been altered, the ability to save the tuning.

I've gotten into this because of the amazing array of soft instruments out there, and it seems like there are so many people able to program these plug-in synths, and most of them have 'learn' functions. To have something like this, to try creating tunings *without* generating numbers -> sending midi data -> playing something to hear it... That is what I'm looking for.

Not saying *you* should try to do it, as Scala does so much else. Just wondering if anything is out there that *might* allow live polyphonic tuning experimentation.

Cheers,
Jon

Jon,

That makes it clearer, and it's indeed not possible in Scala.
But if I can think of some way to implement it with little
work then I'll do it.
The midi relaying doesn't replay sounding notes when the scale
changes, but it can be done. It wouldn't sound nice though while
dragging a slider with note on/offs (like in the triad dialog).

Manuel