Re: [MMM] Arabic keyboard and music notation:

>Historically Arabian music was based on 17 tones per octave. The 24
>tone system was advanced by al-Farabi circa 940 CE. In "Measurement
>of the Arabian Scale," Yusuf Shawqi concludes ( I'm told) far fewer
>than 24 tones are found in practice. Adding to the confusion maqamat
>(plural of maqam) and scales are different concepts. How does one
>expect new master pieces when we can't agree on what has already been
>accomplished?

I'd say it's a musical culture in which "master pieces" don't really
exist as one would think of them in the classical or rock traditions.
We're not expected to invent a language, but to create within an
existing one (more like blues). Nevertheless, learning to do so
should give one sufficient knowledge to stretch the boundaries if he
wants.

This issue aside, I'm really curious from a historical/theoretical
standpoint about Arabic tuning, scales and theory, so I welcome any
discussion here.

What's "C.E." stand for?

>One Arabic orchestra has already started using a piano instead of
>a qanun. What's the big deal? see:

That's...

http://tinyurl.com/bazg

...wow, what a great page! I didn't even know of the qanun!
We gotta get some beta on how these babies are tuned!

>An Arabic keyboard is a dream of mine. Carl Lumma already introduced
>me to the 31 pitch per octave generalized keyboard. Being a purest I
>don't want to just up the number of key to avoid missing one. The
>1/4 tone is a misnomer by the way. Arabic music has 1/2 steps, 3/4
>steps, whole steps and at times 1&1/4 steps, but no 1/4 steps. see:
>
>www.maqamworld.com

Wow!! Great site; thanks, Jim!

Notice that with quarter-tones, one gets 3/4 and 1&1/4 tones!

31-tET wouldn't be ideal for Arabic music, I'm guessing, but I don't
know enough about Arabic music yet to say for sure.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >Historically Arabian music was based on 17 tones per octave. The
24
> >tone system was advanced by al-Farabi circa 940 CE.
In "Measurement
> >of the Arabian Scale," Yusuf Shawqi concludes ( I'm told) far
fewer
> >than 24 tones are found in practice. Adding to the confusion
maqamat
> >(plural of maqam) and scales are different concepts. How does one
> >expect new master pieces when we can't agree on what has already
been
> >accomplished?
>
> I'd say it's a musical culture in which "master pieces" don't really
> exist as one would think of them in the classical or rock
traditions.
> We're not expected to invent a language, but to create within an
> existing one (more like blues). Nevertheless, learning to do so
> should give one sufficient knowledge to stretch the boundaries if he
> wants.
>
> This issue aside, I'm really curious from a historical/theoretical
> standpoint about Arabic tuning, scales and theory, so I welcome any
> discussion here.
>
> What's "C.E." stand for?
>
> >One Arabic orchestra has already started using a piano instead of
> >a qanun. What's the big deal? see:
>
> That's...
>
> http://tinyurl.com/bazg
>
> ...wow, what a great page! I didn't even know of the qanun!
> We gotta get some beta on how these babies are tuned!
>
> >An Arabic keyboard is a dream of mine. Carl Lumma already
introduced
> >me to the 31 pitch per octave generalized keyboard. Being a
purest I
> >don't want to just up the number of key to avoid missing one.
The
> >1/4 tone is a misnomer by the way. Arabic music has 1/2 steps,
3/4
> >steps, whole steps and at times 1&1/4 steps, but no 1/4 steps.
see:
> >
> >www.maqamworld.com
>
> Wow!! Great site; thanks, Jim!
>
> Notice that with quarter-tones, one gets 3/4 and 1&1/4 tones!
>
> 31-tET wouldn't be ideal for Arabic music, I'm guessing, but I don't
> know enough about Arabic music yet to say for sure.
>

> -Carl
Dear Carl,

I'm happy you liked those sites. Master pieces are a funtion of
notation, both hearing and seeing the music. When a small group
improvises music they have to stay within the system. With
notatation what is "legal" expands and grows. With the great
Arabian cultural history, I have a hunch that with notation Arab
music could rival Western music. I doubt that their borrowed
notational system records pitch well enough for this to happen as
yet. (more later)

CE = common era (AD)

WW,
Jim

>I'm happy you liked those sites. Master pieces are a funtion
>of notation, both hearing and seeing the music. When a small
>group improvises music they have to stay within the system. With
>notatation what is "legal" expands and grows.

I don't buy it.

>With the great Arabian cultural history, I have a hunch that
>with notation Arab music could rival Western music.

Some of us think it already does.

>CE = common era (AD)

Ah; right.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >I'm happy you liked those sites. Master pieces are a funtion
> >of notation, both hearing and seeing the music. When a small
> >group improvises music they have to stay within the system. With
> >notatation what is "legal" expands and grows.
>
> I don't buy it.
>
> >With the great Arabian cultural history, I have a hunch that
> >with notation Arab music could rival Western music.
>
> Some of us think it already does.
>
> >CE = common era (AD)
>
> Ah; right.
>
> -Carl

Dear Carl,

A discusion of Arab music without ennvolving Arab musicians might be
a lost opportunity. Would you like to include the MIDI EAST
ORTIENTAL FORUM in this topic? They mainly perform live. Please
vist and see if any of their topics interest you.

If you wish to post, I suggest you first post a short self
introduction message. What do you think?

http://www.abdallahsafar.com/Forum/

WW, Jim

>A discusion of Arab music without ennvolving Arab musicians might
>be a lost opportunity. Would you like to include the MIDI EAST
>ORTIENTAL FORUM in this topic?

I'll check it out. Maybe I'll see you over there...

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> 31-tET wouldn't be ideal for Arabic music, I'm guessing, but I don't
> know enough about Arabic music yet to say for sure.

it works well for imitating certain regional tendencies. all the
arabic maqamat sound reasonable.

Carl,

{you wrote...}
>...wow, what a great page! I didn't even know of the qanun! We gotta get >some beta on how these babies are tuned!

This is sad news: the very first qanun I heard and saw live just happened to be in the "belly dancing" clubs in North Beach. On the very first Partch tour I ever took (1974, West coast touring production of "The Bewitched"), Danlee Mitchell was hip enough to take us to 3 or 4 Middle Eastern clubs, all within a block or two area. He would preface with "this club has great dancers, so-so players" and "this club has dancers that are... well... but the band is really cooking."

Saw qanun players that tore up the joint, even some that could flip intonations (IIRC). And not a far stretch from the Partch harmonic canons, at that.

Damn. If those clubs and that scene have ceased to exist, the Bay area is poorer for it!

Cheers,
Jon

>This is sad news: the very first qanun I heard and saw live just happened
>to be in the "belly dancing" clubs in North Beach.

Some of those clubs still exist. I know some girls that dance in the
circuit. I should look into this...

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >This is sad news: the very first qanun I heard and saw live just
happened
> >to be in the "belly dancing" clubs in North Beach.
>
> Some of those clubs still exist. I know some girls that dance in
the
> circuit. I should look into this...
>
> -Carl

the boston area has quite a few, where garo papazian of stretch makes
most of his living . . . playing via sheer madness rather than formal
training, he is nonetheless accepted by some of the nation's finest
oud and doumbek players. hope some of you got to hear my duo clips
with him that were on the abfreeradio site.

----- Original Message -----
From: "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@...>
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [MMM] Arabic keyboard and music notation:

> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
>
> > 31-tET wouldn't be ideal for Arabic music, I'm guessing, but I don't
> > know enough about Arabic music yet to say for sure.
>
> it works well for imitating certain regional tendencies. all the
> arabic maqamat sound reasonable.

Why wouldn't you want to use 24tet?

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...>
wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
> To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 9:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [MMM] Arabic keyboard and music notation:
>
>
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...>
wrote:
> >
> > > 31-tET wouldn't be ideal for Arabic music, I'm guessing, but I
don't
> > > know enough about Arabic music yet to say for sure.
> >
> > it works well for imitating certain regional tendencies. all the
> > arabic maqamat sound reasonable.
>
> Why wouldn't you want to use 24tet?
>
>
> * David Beardsley
> * microtonal guitar
> * http://biink.com/db

Your right about the count. I've learn not to try to turn back
time. Turkish music uses as many as 31 tones. The original 17 tones
have evolved but they're still in there. Putting 17 tet over 12 tet
gives inbetween steps misnamed 1/4 steps.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...>
wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
> To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 9:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [MMM] Arabic keyboard and music notation:
>
>
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...>
wrote:
> >
> > > 31-tET wouldn't be ideal for Arabic music, I'm guessing, but I
don't
> > > know enough about Arabic music yet to say for sure.
> >
> > it works well for imitating certain regional tendencies. all the
> > arabic maqamat sound reasonable.
>
> Why wouldn't you want to use 24tet?

possible reasons:

*you want to imitate a regional style where the thirds and sixths are
closer to pure 5-limit consonances

*you already own a 31-equal guitar but not a 24-equal one (my
situation)

*you despise 12-equal with such a passion that you find any vestige
of it unacceptable :)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "jnagy2002" <jnagy2002@y...>
wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...>
> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
> > To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 9:50 PM
> > Subject: Re: [MMM] Arabic keyboard and music notation:
> >
> >
> > > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > 31-tET wouldn't be ideal for Arabic music, I'm guessing, but
I
> don't
> > > > know enough about Arabic music yet to say for sure.
> > >
> > > it works well for imitating certain regional tendencies. all
the
> > > arabic maqamat sound reasonable.
> >
> > Why wouldn't you want to use 24tet?
> >
> >
> > * David Beardsley
> > * microtonal guitar
> > * http://biink.com/db
>
> Your right about the count.

what count?

> I've learn not to try to turn back
> time.

what are you referring to?

> Turkish music uses as many as 31 tones.

and a total of 53 (equal or roughly so) divisions in the octave are
theoretically the basis for turkish modes.

> The original 17 tones
> have evolved but they're still in there. Putting 17 tet over 12 tet
> gives inbetween steps misnamed 1/4 steps.

17-tET does a good emulation of arabic modes but i see no reason to
believe that it represents "the original 17 tones" or that one would
want to put it over 12-tET.

I've been at concerts where Turkish music was performed on a
regular keyboard by the ensemble Al Farabi. So you don't
really need a special keyboard for that. Only it must be fully
retunable and with some makams it takes some amount of puzzling
to put which notes where on the keyboard, using otherwise
unused keys at the low or high side.

Manuel