Becoming Wendy

Now that I can actually make microtonal music using Csound, the next step is to find out how, relatively painlessly, I can start sounding a little more like Wendy Carlos. The synthesizer emulations, like so much of Csound, are hideously complicated, but it would be possible to preset things and make it much easier. Anyone know of a good place to find *simple* and *musical* Csound instruments?

Gene,

{you wrote...}
>Now that I can actually make microtonal music using Csound, the next step >is to find out how, relatively painlessly, I can start sounding a little >more like Wendy Carlos.

Painlessly? Anaesthetic?!

But seriously, has her recent stuff been done with Csound? I've always thought Wendy was a dedicated hardware person.

>The synthesizer emulations, like so much of Csound, are hideously >complicated, but it would be possible to preset things and make it much >easier. Anyone know of a good place to find *simple* and *musical* Csound >instruments?

Since Csound is used in so many university electronic music courses, you might do some deep searching through Csound sites and see if anyone there has created some good instruments; I know there is at least one good Csound e-zine on the net. Beyond that, if you think that Prent Rodgers work qualifies as *musical* then the next step might be to try your hand at working with samples, because if you can get facility with that technique then it wouldn't be too hard to find commercial samples of synth (or other) sounds you like, and utilize them in the rendering process.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> But seriously, has her recent stuff been done with Csound? I've always
> thought Wendy was a dedicated hardware person.

She is, but she also has a good ear for electronic sounds.

> Since Csound is used in so many university electronic music courses, you
> might do some deep searching through Csound sites and see if anyone there
> has created some good instruments; I know there is at least one good Csound
> e-zine on the net.

That's an idea. I'm finding to some extent it is possible to simplify some of these overly-complex instruments by moving values inside, instead of setting them by the score file.

Beyond that, if you think that Prent Rodgers work
> qualifies as *musical* then the next step might be to try your hand at
> working with samples...

I've been working with samples, in effect, for the last year, by using Timidity. My idea was to start working with sound synthesis for a change.

Gene,

{you wrote...}
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> >wrote:
>She is, but she also has a good ear for electronic sounds.

Oh, yes. I thought you meant she had switched over to software synthesis, and you were going to emulate that.

>That's an idea. I'm finding to some extent it is possible to simplify some >of these overly-complex instruments by moving values inside, instead of >setting them by the score file.

It appears that designing Csound instruments is yet *another* thing one could spend years at.

>I've been working with samples, in effect, for the last year, by using >Timidity. My idea was to start working with sound synthesis for a change.

I get it.

Cheers,
Jon

there's also "The Csound Book". a useful book for, as its subtitle says,
"software synthesis, sound design, signal processing, and programming".
i've toyed with csound a little, and this book helped a lot. and the
things i learned it in were easily translatable to other audio programming
environments like max-msp.

--
. . . p f l y . . .
http://www.neuron.net/~pfly/duckapus.html
...the debut pfly CD...

>>But seriously, has her recent stuff been done with Csound? I've
>>always thought Wendy was a dedicated hardware person.
>
>She is, but she also has a good ear for electronic sounds.

??

>>Beyond that, if you think that Prent Rodgers work
>>qualifies as *musical* then the next step might be
>>to try your hand at working with samples...
>
>I've been working with samples, in effect, for the
>last year, by using Timidity. My idea was to start
>working with sound synthesis for a change.

I'm sure you'll be as shocked as I was, Gene, to learn
that even Wendy has bowed to wavetable of late. Seems
the "something for nothing illusion" has _not_ worn off...

-Carl

Carl,

{you wrote...}
>Seems the "something for nothing illusion" has _not_ worn off...

Could you explain what you mean by that? Or what she/whoever means by that? I'm guessing there is a reference that I am not aware of.

Cheers,
Jon

>>Seems the "something for nothing illusion" has _not_ worn off...
>
>Could you explain what you mean by that? Or what she/whoever
>means by that? I'm guessing there is a reference that I am not
>aware of.

That was her description of the growing popularity of samplers
in the late 80's, on _Secrets of Synthesis_.

Now maybe Gene can explain what he meant by her preferring
electronics to hardware. . .

-Carl

> Now maybe Gene can explain what he meant by her preferring
> electronics to hardware. . .

Oh, maybe Gene just meant sythesized vs. acoustic sounds.

In ye olden S-OB days, Wendy used Moogs, which was mostly
additive synthesis.

In the early 80's [Digital Moonscapes] it was all additive,
with these babies...

http://www.synthmuseum.com/synergy/

...my friend here in Berkeley has one, in top shape, with
the CP/M machine and software to do the patch editing, and
Carlos-approved ROM cards. I've played with it a bit, but
it takes a lot of patience... I usually opt for my Kawai
K5000, though it can't do inharmonic partials like the
Synergy.

By the mide 80's/early 90's [Beauty in the Beast, S-OB 2000],
Wendy was using mainly Kurzweil stuff, both additive and
wavetable.

I'm in Montana, away from all me liner notes, but according
to this page...

http://www.wendycarlos.com/discnotes.html#TH&Hsnds

...her latest stuff is still happening on Kurzweil gear, but
with more emphasis on samples.

I personally dislike wavetable -- though Wendy has some
incredible sounds on _Tales of Heaven and Hell_, I still
think Digital Moonscapes is about the best synthesis around.

Excitingly, physical modeling should soon be viable, and
finally deliver all the expression and realism (if desired)
that additive ever could, without taking eternity to build
the patches.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma <clumma@y...>"
<clumma@y...> wrote:

> ...my friend here in Berkeley has one, in top shape, with
> the CP/M machine and software to do the patch editing, and
> Carlos-approved ROM cards. I've played with it a bit, but
> it takes a lot of patience... I usually opt for my Kawai
> K5000, though it can't do inharmonic partials like the
> Synergy.

I just got a K5000W. How are you using it microtonally? I can see
how you can make 24ET, and maybe some 48ET but are you using pitch
bend to get other tunings? What is your software?

>
> Excitingly, physical modeling should soon be viable, and
> finally deliver all the expression and realism (if desired)
> that additive ever could, without taking eternity to build
> the patches.
>

I've been using PM (EX5 - Yamaha VL1 engine) for about a year now and
the sounds are amazing, but what is even more surprising is that
ultimately, you have to learn how to play the instrument. When I
play my PM Clarinet, I am having to study embouchure, tongueing,
etc... to make it real. Even when I use new virtual instruments, it
is very problematic because I can produce moments of great beauty,
but on demand... I cannot.

With PM, it's been my realization that you're back to square one.
Now we have to be instrument designers, builders and performers in
addition to composers. Kinda sux but it's definitely exciting.

Jeff Harrington
http://jeffharrington.org - New Music
http://netnewmusic.net - New Music Portal

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "idealordid <jeff@p...>" <jeff@p...> wrote:

> With PM, it's been my realization that you're back to square one.
> Now we have to be instrument designers, builders and performers in
> addition to composers. Kinda sux but it's definitely exciting.

Have you done any PM using Csound?

Carl,

{you wrote...}
>That was her description of the growing popularity of samplers in the late >80's, on _Secrets of Synthesis_.

Thanks, makes perfect sense now!

Cheers,
Jon

Hi Jeff!

I've long been a closet fan of yours, since I first heard
Blues Strider in 1998...

>I just got a K5000W. How are you using it microtonally? I can
>see how you can make 24ET, and maybe some 48ET but are you using
>pitch bend to get other tunings? What is your software?

I have the K5000S.

I don't use it microtonally, except to occasionally do a quick
check on a new tuning I'm writing about, in which case I use
Graham Breed's MIDI Relay to pitch-bendify it... the latency and
other quirks of this setup make it impractical for anything else.

I do have a few patches in 24-et, which I sometimes use for
crazy leads when jamming with a (12-tone) electric band.

>I've been using PM (EX5 - Yamaha VL1 engine) for about a year now
>and the sounds are amazing, but what is even more surprising is
>that ultimately, you have to learn how to play the instrument.

Indeed! I've found that much of what makes a timbre sound a
certain way is stuff like envelope control (esp, for ex., strings).
So there's no way to get that in without some work.

Have you heard Brian McLaren's VL1 stuff?

>With PM, it's been my realization that you're back to square one.
>Now we have to be instrument designers, builders and performers in
>addition to composers. Kinda sux but it's definitely exciting.

Fortunately I'm a pianist... so I just have to wait for realtime
polyphonic patches. . .

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith
<genewardsmith@j...>" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "idealordid <jeff@p...>"
<jeff@p...> wrote:
>
> > With PM, it's been my realization that you're back to square
one.
> > Now we have to be instrument designers, builders and performers
in
> > addition to composers. Kinda sux but it's definitely exciting.
>
> Have you done any PM using Csound?

Yup, but I'm running NT 4.0 at home and DirectCsound is only
asynchronous so there is no realtime feedback. I can't see how you
could phrase a melody by convention; there's the need, IMO, for
continous adjustment of embouchure, etc...

Jeff Harrington
http://jeffharrington.org - New Music
http://netnewmusic.net - New Music Portal

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma <clumma@y...>"
<clumma@y...> wrote:
> Hi Jeff!
>
> I've long been a closet fan of yours, since I first heard
> Blues Strider in 1998...
>

Thanks, man! :) Where in Montana are you? We used to live in
Missoula off and on...

> Have you heard Brian McLaren's VL1 stuff?
>

No is there anything on the web? What would you suggest?

Jeff Harrington
http://jeffharrington.org - New Music
http://netnewmusic.net - New Music Portal

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "idealordid <jeff@p...>" <jeff@p...> wrote:

> Yup, but I'm running NT 4.0 at home and DirectCsound is only
> asynchronous so there is no realtime feedback. I can't see how you
> could phrase a melody by convention; there's the need, IMO, for
> continous adjustment of embouchure, etc...

Sounds as if you need a virtual musician expert system to go with the physical model.

> Thanks, man! :) Where in Montana are you? We used to live in
> Missoula off and on...

I'm just outside of Helena, visiting my parents, who retired
here. I live in Berkeley, CA.

>>Have you heard Brian McLaren's VL1 stuff?
>>
>
>No is there anything on the web? What would you suggest?

None of his stuff is on the web, AFAIK. He has many CDs,
which he will sell you if you write him a letter. When I
get back to Berkeley, I can go through my CDs and find the
one(s) I'm thinking of, and tell you which they are.

Basically, he bought up a bunch of VL1s on ebay and plays
them with a keyboard, wind controller, foot switch -- at
the same time. He uses this setup for some woodwind leads
that I cannot tell from real instruments.

-Carl

>>Yup, but I'm running NT 4.0 at home and DirectCsound is only
>>asynchronous so there is no realtime feedback. I can't see how
>>you could phrase a melody by convention; there's the need, IMO,
>>for continous adjustment of embouchure, etc...
>
>Sounds as if you need a virtual musician expert system to go
>with the physical model.

That would probably do it. Or, you could do what McLaren does --
it's almost certainly easier than learning the actual instrument.

Fortunately for me, I'd be quite content with a killer piano
patch and the skills I already have / hope to gain anyway.

-Carl

> I'm just outside of Helena, visiting my parents, who retired
> here. I live in Berkeley, CA.

Oh, interesting. I'm in San Jose and the parents are in Berkeley...

Makes me sorta wonder how many SF Bay Area folks are on this list?

Rick

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rick McGowan <rick@u...> wrote:
> > I'm just outside of Helena, visiting my parents, who retired
> > here. I live in Berkeley, CA.
>
> Oh, interesting. I'm in San Jose and the parents are in Berkeley...
>
> Makes me sorta wonder how many SF Bay Area folks are on this list?

I'm in San Jose, grew up in Saratoga, and went to school in Berkeley.